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Let's Play Mr and Mrs!

 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
20:57 / 23.02.03
I called my Nan for a chat after lunch today and one of the things we talked about what my cousin who had just got married. My Nan reported with some disapproval that his wife was keeping her maiden name! My Nan just couldn't understand why a woman wouldn't want to take her husband's name, I had things to do that afternoon so to avoid a long complicated theoretical discussion with my 93 year old Nan I just said that it was a modern thing (which I've found to be our family's version of 'that would be an ecumenical matter') and moved the conversation swiftly on.

But there seems to be no solution present for couples to work round this. If people want to show they are married about the only thing they can do is for the wife to take the man's surname, but what if, perfectly reasonably, they don't want to do that? Similarly, in prefix-town, for men the term 'Master' is supposed to be used for bachelors but has fallen into disuse, and tends only to be used for children. And the awkward 'Ms' is used by married women, divorced women or women that don't want to admit to either 'Miss' or 'Mrs'.

So what other options are there?

1)Both partners choose an entirely new surname and both change their names. However, this still leads to the assumption that the woman has taken the man's name. And, if it's a cross-cultural relationship, do you choose a surname from one side of the culture or the other, or try a feat of linguistics to marry (as it were) two names together.

2)Double-barrelled names. Same problem as above but also, can be tough on children. And when Kimberley Hamilton-Holman goes to marry Jarvis Troughton-Brigshaw, what are they going to do?

Is this the end for the name game, will we have to give up relying on what someone is called to try and work out who they are related to? Or is there something else we can try? Could we instead look at attaching new prefixs to names (similar to the Egyptian 'Al' meaning royal) to indicate whether someone is single or in a relationship? When, as seems likely, homosexual marriages gain an equal footing to hetero marriages, what happens to people's names then?

I know I'm mixing two different things together here, the whole Master/Mister/Miss/Mrs/Ms. thing and names, but I think the issues are similar and perhaps one can't be solved without the other. Is this right, or should they both be looked at seperately?
 
 
Smoothly
08:10 / 24.02.03
For me, this has always been a bit of a non-dilemma. If I wanted to show that I was married, I'd probably tell people that I was married when the subject came up, wear a wedding ring perhaps. I'm not entirely sure why people want to bring a name change into it at all (for ease of address? To obviate an argument over what name their children should take?). In fact, I feel somewhat repelled by the idea because I really don't want to fuck Mrs. Weaving. Mrs. Weaving is my mum.

I think Mr. Weaving and Ms. Somethingelse would be my preference. I don't really have a problem with Miss. (for her, you understand), except it is perceived to be an explicit badge of unmarriedness. The same goes for Mrs. and marriedness, plus I believe it has connotations of the possessive (doesn't it derive from Mr's?). Ms. will sound less awkward and unusual the more people use it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:45 / 24.02.03
The utility of "Ms." provides an interesting precedent, not least for the epicene pronoun (ze/hir, or whatever). Those campaigning against it as being unnecessary and confusing frequenbtly appear to be employing, almost word for word, the same arguments as those who believed that "Ms." would cause nothing but confusion.

However. To stop this from turning into a series of disjointed personal musings, how about a proposition:

"Master" and "Mister" are a useful control for the simple reaosn of their programmed obsolescence. You are "master" until you are old enough to own property, vote and so on, after which you are "mister", unless you go way back...can anyone supply references on the use of "master" to describe an unmarried but adult man? Generally, one is as an adult the master of a house, a college, a hunt or an Art/Science; there is the informal way in which somebody keeping bachelor hall might be described as "master of bachelor hall"...hmmmm. Not sure about this at all - I have a feeling that an adult male whose father was still living might be described as Mr. Johnson, the young master of property, but Master Johnson woudl either by the immature Johnson or possibly someone who was not Mister by dint of a hereditary title, but one currently possessed by his father.

Women, meanwhile, until the Married Women's Property Act (1870 in Britain) were never old enough to own property (that is, property was owned, in the natural scheme of things, either by their fathers or their husbands"), they never stopped being children effectively until they were married. In effect, the "miss/mrs" divide has, as Smoothly Weaving suggests, its origins in ownership - it, along with the change of surname, defines to which household the woman belongs. Therefore Miss Peters belongs to the household headed by her father Mr Peters, and Mrs Peters belongs to the household headed by her husband Mr Peters. All pretty simple. The wedding band was also a handy "hands-off" to potential threats to that system; I think it's pretty recent that the ring became traditional to both man and woman, though I'd need to look that one up.

The purpose of "Ms" was to mess with that system, by preventing you from knowing simply from a woman's name whether she was available or owned, and thus to destabilise the patriarchal code structure, but not perfectly - the name after "Ms." would, of course be a referent, but it no longer allowed you to know whether it referred to the father's or the husband's name. That structure is further disrupted by the wife keeping her family name, as it means that Ms Peters may be the unmarried daughter of Mr Peters, the married daughter of Mr Peters, or the wife of Mr Peters. It's still a patronymic, but it's less and less use as a way to track the structures, and so towards making the terminologies as person- rather than structure-focused as "Mister" always has been - Mr. Peters is and remains a member of the Peters family, and epigone of the Peters line.

Leading on from which, in a sense, why do we need a language structure to identify who is single and who is not at all? Since issues of fidelity and inheritance are comparatively unimportant and more matters of individual conscience, we don't need a sign saying "if you are seen unchaperoned with this woman you are likely to be subject to violence, legal action or at the very least the odium of your society" anymore...isn't the desire to advertsie singleness or non-singleness somewhat archaic in a society where marriage is only one possible option in a broad spectrum of relational and indee cohabitational propositions?
 
 
Sax
11:37 / 24.02.03
From my experience, when Ms Non-Sax plighted her troth to me last year and became Mrs Sax, well, the name thing was all a bit half-arsed. She kept her name for work, because she's a journalist and has a by-line that she wanted to keep consistent. She changed a couple of things to my name, like the doctor and dentist, but then couldn't really be arsed with other stuff, like banks and whatever, so it's been a bit of a non-event really.

Sometimes she gets addressed as Mrs Sax, other times as Ms or Miss Non-Sax. What strikes me from this issue is the realisation that her surname isn't really an issue at all. To everyone who matters we're Saxfirstname and MsNonSaxfirstname. And as for the name being a signifier of marriage... it doesn't tend to come up much either.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:53 / 24.02.03
Well, it doesn't matter, does it? In the sense that has not transferred her property to you, and the decision about what she does with the money she earns is still hers, even if she decides to put it in a joint account with you or even just hand it over to you to do with as you will, is ultimately her decision.

So why did she even bother "taking your name" at all? Habit?
 
 
Sax
13:06 / 24.02.03
We did speak about it before the marriage. It wasn't a huge sticking point either way, and because we didn't make a direct request for her not to take my name at the time of the ceremony the registrar kind of automatically did it with the wedding certificate. We kind of leave it up to other people to address us as they're most comfortable.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:10 / 24.02.03
She changed her name....by inertia? Good lord. How very entrenched power structures are.

I'm still wondering about this question, however:

Leading on from which, in a sense, why do we need a language structure to identify who is single and who is not at all? Since issues of fidelity and inheritance are comparatively unimportant and more matters of individual conscience, we don't need a sign saying "if you are seen unchaperoned with this woman you are likely to be subject to violence, legal action or at the very least the odium of your society" anymore...isn't the desire to advertsie singleness or non-singleness somewhat archaic in a society where marriage is only one possible option in a broad spectrum of relational and indeed cohabitational propositions?
 
 
Sax
13:18 / 24.02.03
She changed her name....by inertia? Good lord. How very entrenched power structures are.

Well, you could look at it like that, I suppose. The fact as it relates to us, who are the ones that matter in this particular model, is that it just isn't an important issue. Paying the mortgate, deciding what sauce to put on the salmon, the health and future of our unborn baby, whether there's going to be a war, what's happening in Coronation Street tonight, what's happening in New X-Men next month, how our friend's getting on in his new job in London, whether my dad's health is going to get worse, what kind of picture we should put up in the alcove of the newly decorated living room... this is the stuff that comes in ahead of how we should be formally addressed by strangers, really.

Perhaps we should make it more of an issue. I don't know.
 
 
Smoothly
13:24 / 24.02.03
Perhaps Haus. But then probably not for the people who opt for marriage. I would imagine that people who value the institution of marriage also value institutions like fidelity, and the associated signs and symbols.
 
 
angel
13:38 / 24.02.03
Smoothly Weaving, have you just suggested that because some people don't seem to value the institution of marriage, that by association they don't value the institution of fidelity. Because if that is the case I take issue with your assumption.

On a personal level, fidelity is very important to me, but marriage per se is not. I realise that this is but one case contrary to your statement, but I don't how one negative situation follows the other by natural progression.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:45 / 24.02.03
Well, in a thread in the Head Shop about it, it is likely to be more of an issue, at least rather more of an issue than what happens in New X-Men this month.

As I understand it, what you are saying is that you do not collectively place much importance on whether your wife is officially known by your surname or her own. Note that this is officially as well as formally. So, neither of you thought to intercede in the workings of a process by which your wife was reregistered is a member of your household, rather than a member of her parents' household. As has been observed, the legal and even the symbolic functions of this distinction have been eroded, but this does not alter the fact that a particular moment the registrar legally altered your wife's surname. And it's that particular moment that's as interesting as the many subsequent moments in which the new name is either adopted or not in a variety of circumstances.

To return to the broader questions, however:

I would imagine that people who value the institution of marriage also value institutions like fidelity, and the associated signs and symbols.

Yes, but the changing of the name and/or the transition from "Miss to Mrs" isn't really a sign of fidelity anymore. It isn't even a sign of lifelong partnership, which is one of the things that is interesting about it. Marriage no longer means, for example, taht a woman is compelled by law to remain faithful to her husband, but only that she may feel an obligation of conscience towards that end. To go the other way, one can now be legally responsible for the upkeep of a child even if that child is not conceived within wedlock. And, as angel says, the desire for fidelity, or mutual support, or the amalgamation of financial affairs, need not be preceded by marriage, so why denote marriage in the first place? What profit is there, to look at Flowers' initial project, in finding a new way, or what benefit in the old way, to denote marriage?
 
 
Smoothly
13:54 / 24.02.03
Sorry angel, I didn't mean to imply that. I was responding to Tanngelus's suggestion that since issues of fidelity (among other things) are comparatively unimportant these days, advertisements of a person's availability (or otherwise) are outmoded. My point was that while this might be true for the way many of us live today, names changes and wedding rings etc. are still going to be relevant to certain people, in particular the kind of people who feel inclined to get married.
I now wonder whether the question isn't 'why denote the marriage in the first place?', but why get married in the first place?
 
 
Sax
13:55 / 24.02.03
Christ, you don't half take the romance out of it.
 
 
Smoothly
14:28 / 24.02.03
Personally Sax I have my doubts about marriage being romantic. I'm with angel in thinking that you don't need these things for a relationship to be 'proper', and bringing the State and officials and signatures and documents into the equation seems a bit unromantic to me.
A little anecdotal frinstance: I had a great great aunt and uncle who I remember celebrating their 70th anniversary. It was only after they'd both died that I found out that they were *hushed tones* never actually married. The idea that they were still boyfriend and girlfriend, in their 100s, stuck the young and impressionable Smoothly as like the most romantic thing evah.

I'm a sucker for weddings though - which weakens my argument somewhat.
 
 
Sax
14:33 / 24.02.03
Oh, I more than agree. And without wanting to turn this into me justifying why I got married, which I'm sure as hell not going to do, I'm only going to say that it was right for me. I can see how some would be offended at the prospect of marriage and all it entails, and to be honest I was like that myself for 31 years. Things don't really change after you're married, other than the fact that you've submitted to the system's ratification of falling in love. But it was one hell of a party.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:53 / 24.02.03
Nobody is asking you to justify your decision to get married, Sax. In fact, it might provide the occasion for another party if you fancied turning your considerable abilities to emergent issues outside the specific circumstances of your marriage and its aftermath.

The idea of romance and "the system's ratification of falling in love" as identifiers of marriage is an interesting one. "The system" is divisible, presumably - for example, a Catholic divorcee can have her subsequent act of falling in love ratified by the laws of the land (if that land is the UK, at least), but not in some cases by their church. Conversely, some Anglican priests are prepared to marry men and women in the eyes of God whose love cannot be ratified by the law of the land, at least not yet.

So, marriage exists in a curious situation, romantically speaking. Few would agree that it is necessary or sufficient to show love, but the idea that is does suffice to ratify officially the act of falling in love (for certain groups of people but not others, whose love has no or little official existence) could stand.

Thus, a function of marriage, and of the signifiers of marriage (most obviously the adoption of "Mrs", the excision of the wife's family name and the wedding ring(s), but also the piece of paper and the new tax, employment, inheritance and so on status) might be similar to the certification and new form of address given to people who have gone through medical school. The fellow sitting next to Dr. Love may know just as much about medicine, and may indeed for some bizarre reason have performed as many operations, but Dr. Love has gone through an official process at the end of which he is recognised by state institutions (and globally, presuambly) as a practitioner of medicine, and can be identified as such by his "Dr", and his certificate, and his reflecty headband thing.

So, the certificate of marriage and its signifiers could serve to say that, although the unmarried person sitting next to our married man or woman on the bus may be just as able a lover (in the sense of falling in, rather than naughtings) the married person has the recognition of the state for their ability to love.

Which has the curious side-effect of explaining why affairs with married people are so popular...they are certificated for quality.
 
 
grant
16:00 / 24.02.03
Referring back to the first post, there are other options.

I've got a cousin who's husband took *her* last name. They're in Germany, she had him do it to tick off the family, because now *he's* taken on her title (he's a Graf, now). Apparently, this is not unheard of - in the 1400s, it was traditional for a common husband to take on a wife's title, from one thing I've read.

(I also have friends who married and took on an arbitrary last name - Razee. It's a word they liked from the Scrabble dictionary.)

In Spanish-speaking countries, a man takes on his mother's maiden name as a last name, but uses the patronym as the middle name and the official name. Thus Hidalgo Santamaria Gomez de Cruz is the son of a lady named de Cruz and a man named Gomez. He'll be addressed as Hidalgo Gomez, except on formal occasions.

And the idea I've always favored is having seperate lines for women and men - daughters taking on mothers' names, and sons taking on fathers'. Which lends itself to keeping separate names with a Mrs. in front, I suppose.

---

Full disclosure: my wife (I've got one, you know) took my name. She's been married before, didn't want to have the ex's name any more, and didn't particularly care for her maiden name.
This is more common than you might think; I have another friend who, upon getting a divorce, refused to go back to her maiden name, because the new name was a step up. She went back to a grandmother's maiden name instead.
There may be social/psychological factors at play behind the scenes there, but the official reason is an aesthetic one.

-----

Haus saith: So, marriage exists in a curious situation, romantically speaking. Few would agree that it is necessary or sufficient to show love, but the idea that is does suffice to ratify officially the act of falling in love (for certain groups of people but not others, whose love has no or little official existence) could stand.


To which I'll say, yeah, mostly. The problem seems to be situated around the resonance of the words "ratify officially."
The awkward stuff around marriage in the discussion here seems to revolve around the idea of marriage as "official" or part of "the system," which it is, in part, but it's also (and more properly, I'd say) about a declaration before your personal community, which is a kind of "official system" but is a much smaller case of the big system of the State. So the state might officially ratify it, but it's really up to your community (family, friends, neighbors) to make it *real*. And you can't really put a stamp & signature on that.

Sacramentally, there's also the idea that you're more than just pairing up - that where the people around you once saw two, they are now to see one. The mundane state stuff (contracts, names etc) is just a faulty approximation of that.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
16:30 / 24.02.03
Women taking their husbands’ surnames has a longer and stronger tradition in England, due to the laws governing marital property, than in Scotland (and much of the rest of Europe for that matter) until it became widely fashionable to mimic the English tradition, within the last couple of hundred years. For instance, the name on a gravestone is Scotland would still more likely be the “maiden” name, although it would also say “wife of X”.

I find the automatic assumption of someone’s name just because your shagging them mystifying but, then again, could really care less. Every relationship is different and, as Sax said, a hundred and one other decisions the couple will make will advertise their bond and demonstrate how fairly and appropriately gender affects their interactions. The laws which pertain to only married couples will apply whatever surnames the couple uses.

Were I a married woman, I would quite happily change my surname because I have never been that taken with the surname to which I was born. Both of my sisters changed their names on marriage, their husbands having much more euphonic surnames, even although the younger one emerged from the womb reading The Female Eunuch.

I think a greater puzzle in these more egalitarian and questioning times is why babies continue, with relatively few exceptions, to take their male parent’s surname. Even when children are born out of holy wedlock, the Y chromosome is still given this special marker. The sexism inherent in that practice seems to be challenged much less.

grant, re Spanish practices: I like their system but isn't the mother's patronymic the name which is handed on through the generations?

Sikhs used to have a system where the boys took Dad's surname and the girls took their Mum's, so that X and Y chromosomes had equal dynastic value, but I gather this too is falling out of favour in modern times.
 
 
Babooshka
17:22 / 24.02.03
I think a greater puzzle in these more egalitarian and questioning times is why babies continue, with relatively few exceptions, to take their male parent’s surname. Even when children are born out of holy wedlock, the Y chromosome is still given this special marker. The sexism inherent in that practice seems to be challenged much less. – Xoc

You know, I've wondered about that as well...It would make so much sense for the child to take the mother's name in a case where the mother is single, but one doesn't hear about that happening as often (unless the father is absent or otherwise unwilling to help raise the child, and the mother's family decides to pass the child off as a "cousin" or some sort...).

The idea of romance and "the system's ratification of falling in love" as identifiers of marriage is an interesting one. – Tanngelus

Not to mention an idea that gets far more mileage in Western European & American cultures. Since within these cultures marriage is not automatically considered a means to consolidate wealth & property between two families, or to forge alliances of various sorts between clans, there seems to be less of a need for a woman to take on the name of her spouse (or indeed her father).

Too bad one can't just choose one's *own* name legally once a certain age is reached...
 
 
slinkyvagabond
18:26 / 24.02.03
~Were I a married woman, I would quite happily change my surname because I have never been that taken with the surname to which I was born.~Xoc

Why wouldn't one do it if one was ever in the position of being a married man, if one really doesn't like the "family" sirname? I'm not digging at you personally, Xoc, (and not presuming your sexuality or indeed gender, hence "one") just wondering what the male objection would be to such an act?

Oh, my parents did that thing: mother's name for girl (father's name for notional boy) but it's still my grandfather's name. Except that being a non-anglo name it has a gender-marker (-ska instead of -ski) which I feel gives the wife or daughters of the family some assertion of their existence as entities separate from the husband/father. One is, of course, still "daughter of" (-ska) X, so I haven't escaped from nominally being somebody's possession but at least I'm a matrilineal possession and if ever by some horrendous accident I happen to breed (to breed at all, but that is rotting away at this thread) a daughter I'll most likely insist on her having my name.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
16:53 / 25.02.03
I don't feel the slightest bit dug at, slinky one. I am a gay man and I have never adopted a partner's surname because I would be on my fourth or fifth surname by now, given my long term relationship history. I have known women who have gone down that route, serial surname changers, but it seems grossly unwieldy to me and must be awkward for those around them to keep up with.

Can't think of many examples of men changing their names to their wives' upon marriage but I would expect there's not the ease there is for women in so doing, needing only a marriage certificate to alter professional registrations for instance. & maybe, apart from society's inherent sexism, the extra effort involved makes it less likely that they will.

One of the joys of the online life is that I can have any name I wish and change it at a whim. Little ceremony attached and it may or may not mean there have been significant changes in my cirumstances to account for it. The logic of women automatically changing their surnames or feeling pressured to do so doesn't apply but, if it did, I would have to be Buddhi or Siddhi (wives of Ganesh) or I could follow your unconventional folks' example and become MacParvati or Parvatiski. Either of which might be very cool...

I think the whole thing of children's surnames commonly reflecting only one strand of their inheritance is an odd survival into modern times and much more of a sexist imposition than an adult woman chosing to take her partner's surname. Your parents done good, in bucking that tradition.
 
 
slinkyvagabond
22:31 / 25.02.03
MacParvati - sounds a little like one of those McDonalds "lets do a local spin on things" specials I suppose if I was the lover of a god that would be good grounds for name changing. That's really something to show off about.
 
 
glassonion
12:02 / 26.02.03
doesn't the mutation, ie that which makes the child an individual, occur on the y chromosome? changing your name because you want to isn't in any way the same as having one's identity subsumed. for me, the girlfriend doesn't have to take my name, but the kids are sure going to else my lot'll have all died out.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:22 / 26.02.03
But the children will be the same children whether they have your name or hers. and what if she is the only scion of her line? Does it deserve to die out for its failure to produce male heirs?

Also, what do you mean by the "mutation, ie that which makes the child an individual?" I'm afraid I don't understand the biology here...
 
 
glassonion
14:30 / 26.02.03
she's got male cousins and such with the same surname. i haven't. i'm not entirely sure about the biology either, somebody put me right if i need it but what i think i mean is that all babies are girls, unless they're born boys. sounds stupid, but i think there's something beneath it. you've got the two xx sitting in the egg, and the xy in the sperm. if the x bit of the male ingredients bonds with the egg, you've still basically got a load of exxes, but if the y gets there you have a mutation and the egg becomes a boy capable of spreading further diversity.

i don't know where i got it from, sounds a bit sexist really, but i kinda thought it was the evolutionary reckoner for paternity. i'm aware that, y'know, in actual words that now sounds like the stupidest bag o' poo ever so don't bother pointing it out.

i think its fine for the kids to be named for the chap really. its the girls who get to decide which guy's kids get born in the first place, after all.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:46 / 26.02.03
y chromosomes are certainly simplified versions of x chromosomes, but I have a feeling that by your logic all girls would be identical.

On the other issue - try to think abit more abstractly. Rather than your particular partner, what are the consequences of the universal primacy of the male name being adopted? Some names and some lines die out. If this is a bad thing in the case of your own family name, why is it OK for other people's?
 
 
Sax
15:03 / 26.02.03
I wonder if the whole "name dying out thing" isn't an issue until we start breeding. I know that personally (sorry, Haus) I wouldn't really feel greatly affronted if there were no longer any people with my surname after I'd gone, but perhaps there's some genetic switch that gets flicked after we've brought progeny into the world and we have some primeval urge to continue our line. In the absence of going around with a mammoth's tusk and disembowelling everyone else in our street to ensure our bloodlines persist, perhaps carrying on with an identifiable surname is the next best thing.

As to why it doesn't matter whether our female partner's surname dies out, well, it's archaic and it ain't really right but it's a hangover of social history.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:33 / 26.02.03
Oh well, that's all right, then. As long as there's a sensible explanation....

I agree with you about the perpetuation of the name thing; it's a very low-risk, low-effort way to connect with one's paternal lineage. Possibly, in societies where father-son contact tends to be unsatisfying or unfulfilling it becomes more important as symbolic reaffirmation of ties that have less strength in actuality, although that's a stretch...
 
 
Sax
06:23 / 27.02.03
Er, yeah, sorry my last point trailed off into insignificance. The boss came to my desk as I was rattling it out and I had to wind it up without really saying anything.
 
 
Smoothly
09:35 / 27.02.03
So. What do we suggest?
I know nothing about taxonomy. Is there a way of naming children which would identify them as part of the families of both parents? Obviously double-barrelling would quickly get unwieldy. But we manage to give complex organic compounds names which describe them comprehensively. Could we do something similar with our kiddies?

Smoothly 2-Brownsmith-Fotheringtonjones3,6-Darkstar-Weaving.
 
 
pomegranate
17:29 / 06.03.03
I don't love my last name. I don't much care for the man that it came from, nor his father either. But it's trancended that for me, and it's become mine. And if/when I get married, I won't be changing it. I'm going to be Ms. Praying Mantis the rest of my life, as I've always been (not using the Ms. so much when I was a child, hah) And I don't want children so the issue of what to name them is moot.
I know someone who's last name is Lillyreed. One parent's last name was Lilly, the other's was Reed. They created a new surname for the both of them. Which is cool, but if it keeps happening, in a few generations we're going to have last names like Greensmithpazanskiwilliamsgrovesbaltessaadmartinez. And think of how big the tombstones will have to be.
It *is* interesting that we still seem to value marks of fidelity when marriage is just one option from which to choose. It is interesting that people get married at all. I know a lot of people say why do it, what's the point, but to me that makes it more romantic in a way. Like if yr already living with and committed to someone, yr life isn't going to change when you get hitched, but people still want to make a big deal public display of their permanent intentions. Cute.
 
 
glassonion
09:28 / 07.03.03
quite. regardless of your opinion of marriage, surely no-one has a beef with weddings? they're great fun.

in last ioo years we've found out a lot about heredity and genetics. we know now that certain characteristics of body and personality are inherited, and so having a common name by which one can link to one's genetic source just seems a good way of info-binding to me. this is not necessary so much for the mother because someone's seen the baby come out her twinge so they know its hers. and she's probably got it hanging off her tits.

with regard to the possibility that paternal name-carrying could be a symbolic substitute for real dad-love, i think the stretch of the argument is that any bond that exists between two or more people will always be rendered symbolically, and that an actuality of emotional ties is never observable.

a further explanation could be that one's baby is one's immortality. whereas [in general only, natch] the mother nurtures the baby within for nine months and then without 24/7 for perhaps another four years. after all this time and contact possibly the mother feels and knows that her immortality is learning to talk and think, whereas dad, feeling a little bit uncertain and left out, needs an explicit/symbolic affirmation that the immortality waddling around over there is his. its fair enough and harmless if it means dad stays calm enough not to lose his shit, dump the family, hurt the child whatever.

what's the word for when you kill your own child? i imagine historically dads killing kids was quite a problem, diffused somewhat if the father is confident if that thing over there is in some very definite way an, err, emanation of his own self.

having trouble thinking of this in the abstract not the concrete, as been feeling a bit broody lately [the calves and lambs are being born as we speak! see the sunshine!] and this is an issue that i will probably be confronting directly in the next few years, so apologies.
 
 
pomegranate
19:47 / 07.03.03
at the risk of threadrot..."*twinge*?" dear god. is that some sort of british thing?
Yes, I think that the reason we have a patrilineal society is precisely to assuage feelings of...I don't know, worry? left-out-ness? on the part of the father, since it's only recently that you could prove who the father of a child was. Interestingly enough, some societies are matrilineal for that same reason...you can only be totally positively sure of the mother. It is for this reason you are considered Jewish only if yr mother is, I believe.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
22:54 / 07.03.03
glassonion, most cases of infanticide these days (a very rare thing, thankfully) involve new mothers, unbalanced mentally during the puerperum. Much much rarer for the father to kill his own children.

This is a fact of the modern age. Historically it might have been quite different. Certainly was in Roman times and in ancient Sparta. Afaik, in China and India exposure of infants continued surprisingly late.

And your thoughts about Dad's surname giving him the connection his exclusion from the physical bond of pregnancy and weaning denied him sounds kosher. That might still be an incidental benefit for Papa, though, that stemmed from the real purpose - the desire to ensure male dynastic and property rights in perpetuity.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:34 / 08.03.03
So, what are the alternatives? I found this in an Iain M. Banks essay on The Culture, it's geographically-based and, due to the Culture being a free-wheelin' Socialist utopia doesn't seem to believe in marriage, but could it be adapted?

Names; Culture names act as an address if the person concerned stays where they were brought up. Let's take an example; Balveda, from Consider Phlebas. Her full name is Juboal-Rabaroansa Perosteck Alseyn Balveda dam T'seif. The first part tells you she was born/brought up on Rabaroan Plate, in the Juboal stellar system (where there is only one Orbital in a system, the first part of a name will often be the name of the Orbital rather than the star); Perosteck is her given name (almost invariably the choice of one's mother), Alseyn is her chosen name (people usually choose their names in their teens, and sometimes have a succession through their lives; an alseyn is a graceful but fierce avian raptor common to many Orbitals in the region which includes the Juboal system); Balveda is her family name (usually one's mother's family name) and T'seif is the house/estate she was raised within. The 'sa' affix on the first part of her name would translate into 'er' in English (we might all start our names with 'Sun-Earther', in English, if we were to adopt the same nomenclature), and the 'dam' part is similar to the German 'von'. Of course, not everyone follows this naming-system, but most do, and the Culture tries to ensure that star and Orbital names are unique, to avoid confusion.
 
  
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