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Trans Exclusion: Testing My Principles

08:24 / 09.01.02

further to the women's space/trans exclusion and the justice for women benefit gig i am organising, the debate has taken a more personal turn and i have decisions to make:

this morning i asked jfw about trans/intersex folk exclusion. it turns out they have a problem with me letting transwomen into the gig. i have stated that i will not operate a trans exclusive policy. we will talk later on the phone and hopefully the gig will not fall apart.

the problem here, as far as i can see, is that jfw (by their own admittance) is predominantly made up of older women who appear to have little knowledge of newer school feminism. they had never heard of 'riot grrl' for example. they want younger women involved in the organisation and so it's inevitable that they will have to deal with this sooner or later anyway.

i don't know any feminists who see gender as being rigid. i would hope to share the event with them (one of them is giving a speech) while disagreeing, because i have the utmost respect for the group, as individuals and as an organisation, while agreeing to differ and then i would like to discuss the whole thing with them. if they insist on trans exclusion, what do i do? the gig is for their benefit. could i still be involved? should i? i have worked fucking hard for this, but have already decided that i would have to walk away. the gig should go ahead and will be a great event/night out and let's be honest, it will not suffer if i'm not there, it will suffer if jfw are not.

it breaks my heart to think i might not be involved..... i have to try and sort this out this afternoon. i am not as articulate as many barbefolk, so any points you lot can suggest would be very much appreciated. i want to save this event if i can.

08:53 / 09.01.02

panic over. jfw are leaving it to me. but it just shows how necessary this debate is......

08:53 / 09.01.02

I don't see why, you're excluding men, why not transgender folk?

And black people while you're at it.

08:53 / 09.01.02

Glad to hear it worked out okay, sfd. Hope the benefit goes well.

08:53 / 09.01.02

ellis - if you seriously think transwomen are 'men', or that gender is a rigid state, or do not understand why women need safe space, then you need some education.

really - are you serious? cos that comment worries me......

The Natural Way

08:53 / 09.01.02

Without attempting to patronise, etc....

Ellis is 17 (18?) - he probably isn't that up on gender theory.

08:53 / 09.01.02

Ellis, dude. That comment worries me too, a lot. For fuck's sake.

08:53 / 09.01.02

Er, isn't it a joke? Referring to earlier discussions on a similar subject?

Regrettable Juvenilia

08:53 / 09.01.02

It's a bit unclear what the 'point' of the joke is, though, out of that context. Since I know Ellis, I'm assuming that he's parodying a certain kind of attitude that crops up quite a lot on Barbelith, the kind that either can't or won't interact with these issues on a more than imbecilic level. But I could be wrong, and the fact that this attitude does show up here free from irony now and again, means that it could easily be misread. I mean, you'd assume some of the comments in the 'When Would You Call The Police Thread?' are jokes, but oh no, no no, if only...

For what it's worth, sfd, I think you would have been right (and quite brave) to withdraw your involvment if you had to. Glad it didn't come to that though.

[ 09-01-2002: Message edited by: Flyboy ]

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

10:33 / 09.01.02

Ellis seems to be paraphrasing the Haus whine "what are you, black or something?", used to parody spluttering responses to criticism of wildly prejudicial arguments put forward as common sense. However, the usage here is certainly interesting.

Possibly Ellis' statement could be taken as a hyperbolic expression of the fact that a choice does have to be made, and a line drawn somewhere, and that that line's position will inevitably be criticised as oppressive (of TGs or of women unhappy at the presence of TGs) by someone, as one cannot simultaneously include and exclude transgendered women. See also Deva's comment in the first transpace thread that women should continue to exclude TGs from female space, and TGs should continue to protest their exclusion (is that a fair summary?).

As to the practicalities....yeeeeuch. Awkward. I have horrible images (was this the case at Ladyfest?) of drag kings having to prove their "femaleness" behind the bike sheds. Rather like a friend of mine (who was coincidentally black) being stoppped on his way into a gay club and challenged for not looking gay enough, and having to name other gay clubs he had been to before being allowed in.

[ 09-01-2002: Message edited by: The Haus of Rain ]

10:45 / 09.01.02

haus - for practical purposes, the press release reads that the gig is open to 'anyone who identifies as female'. women of all genders, then..... basically a well known transwoman asked me directly if they would be welcome or would face a battle and i needed to know what jfw's views were because i had every intention of the event being trans inclusive. thankfully the mutual respect thing seems to be working here and i'm really excited now at the prospect of different branches of the 'community' (trans/old school feminists/sm dykes/riot grrls/totally non political oak bar regulars) being in the same space.

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:34 / 09.01.02

quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Rain:
Rather like a friend of mine (who was coincidentally black) being stoppped on his way into a gay club and challenged for not looking gay enough, and having to name other gay clubs he had been to before being allowed in.

Off-topic maybe, but isn't this (being asked to name other clubs you frequent) fairly standard door policy at a lot of gay clubs (in the UK at least)? It's a policy that has more gaping holes in it than the old dress code theory, but it's still used quite frequently as I understand it... although maybe it's used less in (central?) London.

The Natural Way

13:42 / 09.01.02

Well, if Ellis is parodying barbewhine: I take it all back. He's actually 2000 yrs old - face like granite, that old mountain Ellis.....

15:42 / 09.01.02

Semi-related question: just how many trans-folk would show up to this deal anyhow?

Slightly less related: And how many men try to get in?

What ARE the bouncers doing?

16:12 / 09.01.02

Ellis' remark fazed me until I came to the punch line. then I (metaphorically) shrugged.

SFD, I guess the "well-known transwoman" has a different MO than me. I (also MTF) would simply waltz right in. which I realize does not address the larger issues.

I also should comment that anecdotally according to a response on the 'net stereotypes do not always apply. i.e. some younger women have more rigid ideas against trans inclusion than older women. though I have not experienced this myself.

I have only once come face to face with the issue twice in the queer world. one of the times I indeed won the doubter over, she said. she said she had changed her mind and considered me female after I spoke with her for about ten minutes but that she didn't know about others. I have said before that I feel proud of that which has had a somewhat hostile response from others, because I admitted that I felt complimented.

the other time a bouncer would not permit a mixed MTF and bio group of women enter a lesbian club. I suspect but don't know that it had to do with us TS'es.

I have encountered by far loads more shit in the outside world.

[ 09-01-2002: Message edited by: Ria ]

20:56 / 09.01.02

Ellis, man.... can opened! worms everywhere!

sfd, I think that the 'anyone who identifies as female' thing is, given that you want to create a female space for the gig, exactly the right place to draw the line. The problem is, you have to turn that into a door policy.

Here, I think the thing is not hard and fast rules but understanding that your intention is to create a liminal space- something extraordinary, -For One Night Only! That's a space that's different every time, and as grant pointed out, how many transfolk are you expecting? might be some, might be none, but at the end of the day it seems like the debate is both complex and delicate but the reality is looking at the person trying to get into the gig and knowing whether they're there to help make that liminal space a beautiful place or if they should have taken that left turn at Alberquerque. (sp?) Whatever they appear to be on the surface. Every individual decision cuts, in microcosm, the Gordian knot.

Ellis has a point. Exclusion is exclusion and if we were talking about, say, the establishment of a womens' community, I'd be deeply worried and uncomfortable about any kind of exclusivity based on social/sexual/racial characteristics, including the exclusion of men. (I know that sounds totally backasswards and contrawise. But I like contradictions and I don't care for rules beyond 'and it harm none.') But for one night... yes. Absolutely. Creates a crucible in which Stuff can happen. Ellis' post recongnises that the creation of these liminal spaces can be as dangerous as it can be affirming.

But it's a bit cheeky.

Have a cracking gig- may lots of ridiculously wonderful things come of it

Disco is My Class War

22:53 / 09.01.02

Good luck with the benefit, sfd. I'm glad you've found a solution. Yay for open-mindedness.

05:21 / 10.01.02

well the fact that a transwoman has expressed interest in coming along and specifically asked me if it would be 'a battle' made me want to make sure it wouldn't be. me and two others are doing the door and are agreed with the 'anyone who ids as female' thing as door policy. i put the issue to justice for women, to make sure the safe space i'd guaranteed to the transwoman was going to be there and they did have a problem with it. but after discussions they said they trusted my judgment. they disagree and i would like to talk further about it with them, but i really respect their willingness to agree to differ on this but still work together.

one transwoman getting shit would be one too many for me, i was not prepared to continue working on the gig if that might have been the case. if none turn up, the principle has still been established. men turning up will be politely turned away. all advertising has stated that the gig is women only.

i am still fairly flabbergasted that some men on barbelith seem either not to understand the need or resent the idea of four hours of safe space for women.

05:47 / 10.01.02

But isn't that what Tupperware parties are for?

20:10 / 10.01.02

SFD, if I did not say so for before I truly appreciate your stand.

as to the value of exclusive gatherings generally... maybe this analogy could help... well, think of it as an extended family gathering with family with family defined in a particular way.

a kind of Temporary Autonomous Zone.

agent femmeCORE

23:33 / 11.01.02

sfd, we've got the same thing going down here in northampton, ma, lesbian mecca of the usa, where old school meets new school and the clash is on. queer feminists, dykes, & transbois over here; second wave affluent assimilationst lesbians over there; it's never quite that cut and dry, but you get the idea, and still everyone's stuck on michigan womyn's festival as the microcosm of all trans inclusion issues, but anyway... keep in the spirit of communication & understanding -- and good luck. i was never able to be so diplomatic here when transphobia, wrapped in a large wave of queerphobic and sex-negative insanity hit the women's center i had to eventually quit. xo.

Tryphena Absent

23:52 / 11.01.02

I think you've got it going on - just carry on, forever. I really respect the fact you're organising this.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

10:08 / 12.01.02

[off topic-ish]

I'm really, really glad to see this kind of topic happening again. Thank you.

[/oti]

By the way, best for the gig!

14:26 / 12.01.02

agent, the conversation I mentioned above occured relative to the women's center in Cambridge MA. or did you mean one closer to one where you now live?

regarding the MWMF that seems to me fruitless because it does *not* work like a democracy there. and because things like Ladyfest which do have inclusive policies exist now anyway. perhaps if I had any great desire to go to MWMF myself I would have a different view.

[ 12-01-2002: Message edited by: Ria ]

11:15 / 13.01.02

some interesting and supportive comments - thanks! am actually nervous as hell about the whole things as i want so much for it to go well, but i really was devastated at the thought that i might no longer be able to take part.

i will be writing about the whole thing after the gig - you have been warned!