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Mage: The Ascension and other RPGs

  
  

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Quantum
13:22 / 18.02.03
I am coming out of the closet- I am a roleplayer. Not just that, but I have been storytelling Mage for ten years now, so I can be said to be obsessive perhaps. If you don't know what a GM or a D10 is, read this here. Assuming you are familiar with RPGs that don't involve computers, let me tell you about Mage...
It is set in modern day, in a world like ours but with secret societies of 'Awakened' Magicians who can alter reality with their Will (so very like ours). You play a member of one of nine mystic Traditions of Magi, fighting to save the world from the Technocracy (the embodiment of control, Men in Black, Cyborgs and clones etc) who use hypertechnology (Technomagic to you and I). You also face Marauders (avatars of Chaos, Mad Ones who disrupt consensual reality) and Nephandi (Corrupters, agents of Entropy out to destroy the world) as well as Witch hunters, evil spirits, rival Traditions etc.
It is exceptionally well researched and based on real world magical traditions (e.g. the Order of Hermes, ritual Hermetic magicians) and has the best system of magic I have come across. (9 spheres of magic)
In Mage, reality is consensual, decided by the beliefs of all the beings in it. Laws of Nature are therefore consensual also, so somebody with a strong enough belief can defy them. (For example, most people believe you can't fly, but as a Mage you believe you can so strongly that you do, thus performing the 'impossible') The key to having beliefs that run contrary to the majority is a strong paradigm of magical beliefs. For example, if your character is raised as a shaman she believes in spirits, despite most people's disbelief in them. With a strong enough Will, after initiation and practice, she may be powerful enough to summon spirits, walk the otherworld etc.
In short, it is the Invisibles RPG.
This thread is to discuss wider issues in roleplaying (the social exclusion of gamers, is it the inheritor of mythic oral tradition etc.) and Mage in particular because of it's relevance to real world Magick (and because it's the best game ever).
 
 
deja_vroom
13:43 / 18.02.03
No it's not.

(shows tongue, runs away)
 
 
Quantum
14:10 / 18.02.03
..I should say the best game ever except sticking out your tongue and running away.
 
 
invisible_al
14:42 / 18.02.03
Well I'll stick my oar in, comming in from a gaming angle and having heard some critique from the magical side from friends.
Mage is a wonderful game IMHO, the magic system is freeform and a bit difficult to get your head round at first but once you've played a game or two it clicks.

It's stuffed full of lots of lovely ideas that genuinely encourage you to think about the how's and why's of your magic. None of your spend your xp, learn your spell's from a big old tome mlarky. You want power you gonna have to go on a quest into your soul and it won't be easy.

I've had some of the most fun roleplaying in Mage, it's a game where you can go wild with ideas, fancy talking to an intelligent shade of the colour blue? Pop into the Umbra aka Gaia's dreams and do it, if you want to play with storytelling constructs its a game that lends it's self to experimentation. Had a lot of fun helping the GM tell the story of two of the players seeking's.

It's a game about big ideas, like belief and how it affects reality, some of the only philosphic discussions I've ever had in a rpg were in Mage with players talking to each other about their in game belief systems.

Ok that's the good points, it does have it's flaws. White Wolf has a bad habit of letting it's hipper than thou views get in the way sometimes. It's treatment of technology and techno magic with the faceless men in black corporate types trying to extinguish all individuality on one side and the uber-hip H8x0r dudes on the other along with the steam-punk science Son's of Ether. It's all a bit simplistic for a game that handles so much well. It's also guilty of fluffy pagan syndrome in parts, with all those radical new age shaman's being whiter than white.

But you can take all the cool bits of the world and jetison the rest, there's still some very large chunks of coolness. Oh and definately to the whole Invisible's RPG, I think Grant Morrison even gets a hat tip in one of the source books.
 
 
Quantum
15:34 / 18.02.03
I agree! Down my way we call it White Wolf Bollocks and customise the background to all hell. To be fair though, there are some good Technocracy supplements that present their side quite well- you can run a great Technocracy game along the lines of Bond or Alias (or the MiB film of course)
'You are a member of an elite secret agency dedicated to protecting the world from agents of chaos. With just your guts, training (and Ultratechnology toys) you must face fireball throwing wizards, mad shapeshifting throwbacks and creatures from Beyond who all threaten the peaceful existence of the Masses. You are an agent of the Union, making sure the normal, innocent people of the world stay that way'
 
 
jeff
18:46 / 18.02.03
(Transcript of conversation between J** N***** and W*** M*******, dated [sometime last year})

JN: Yeah, I'm going to jam his gun before he can fire at me

WM: How are you going to do that?

JN: Forces.

WM: .....forces.....How?

JN: Y'know

WM: No, I think you're going to have to explain how you are going to make his gun jam

JN: (Mimes dancing with an elephant, or that is how it appears anyway)

WM: (Pause) Your paradigm, that part of the game you treat like your grandmother.

(JN continues to play charades, this time pretending to blow his assailant to death)

Suffice to say, this little chat ended in fisticuffs, which is my problem with Mage, love it as I do.

If you have all the various key books at your disposal, then there are no particular problems. Guide to the Traditions and the Handbook give you the full lowdown on Paradox, Paradigm, Resonance and other such concepts so shoddily dealt with in the main rules.

To play the game you have to be very familiar with the concepts and mechanics of the game. It's nigh on impossible to get a RPG newbie in and follow the rules for them, because so much depends on how a PC describes their actions, which in turn depends on those fun things like paradigm and resonance, etc etc.
There is a lot to read in order to get the whole picture. You need to be kitted up to the nines in Mage boks in order to avoid violence. In my experience anyway. Though perhaps my friends and I are just sociopaths.
 
 
Potguns
21:06 / 18.02.03
*puts geeky hat on*

I'm not too sure about Mage to be honest. Everytime I seem to attempt to play it some min maxing rules lawer attempts to change the tilt the planet off its axis or something equally stupid. But perhaps thats just the players I used to hang with.

From the GM's perspective it's incredibly hard to figure the paths the players are gonna take especially with the the liberal magic system thus making writing pre ordained plot difficult and it always tends to be a little more freeform. On the other hand though I do agree that the system ideas are very good and it really forces people to think about their characters much more than the standard dwarven miner bull so often found in RPG'S.

Anyone seen the In Nomine background? Angels and Demons in political subterfuge up to the end of the world!? Bloody marvelous. Been thinkin of runnin a Buffy style game with this for ages.

*tugs at hat*
It won't come off!
 
 
Perfect Tommy
23:12 / 18.02.03
It's treatment of technology and techno magic with the faceless men in black corporate types trying to extinguish all individuality on one side and the uber-hip H8x0r dudes on the other along with the steam-punk science Son's of Ether. It's all a bit simplistic for a game that handles so much well. It's also guilty of fluffy pagan syndrome in parts, with all those radical new age shaman's being whiter than white.

I think they've gotten a little better with this, at least going by the recent PCs-as-Technocrats game, and the most recent Storyteller's guide, in which they encourage GMs to pull back from Science vs. Magic and concentrate more on Freedom vs. Control. ('Cause Quantum's right: it is the Invisibles RPG.)

I'd like to play it some day. I ran a game a few years ago, but the rationale I had for the characters to actually hang around wasn't much better than, "You walk into the bar and sit by the obvious player-character types," to my shame. Too much superhero gaming stunted my ability to get people who don't wear spandex to form a team, apparently.

The metasystem seems like it would be a great way to do some paradigm shifting outside the context of the RPG, but I'm not sure how. One of these days I hope to familiarize myself with the Mage tarot deck for divination purposes (against the objections of the publisher).
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
03:31 / 19.02.03
This constitutes threadrot, I imagine, but I hereby justify it because it may help you in your group "working." The way I've made parties hang together in non-traditional campaigns is by making them related. I was always surprised how deeply the anchor strikes when I made two players who were always at odds play brothers. Sure they'd fight and bicker, but now it's brotherly and they'd do anything for each other -- and things to that effect. The folks I played with were pretty jaded mini-maxey gamers but the family gambit never failed. I didn't run very often, though, so it was a change of pace.

I've never tried to run a Mage game, though I've played in one or two. While I found the books to be interesting reading, I didn't like it as a game, and I think my reasons would apply to workings as well. I found the rules to be too baggy where I needed support and too chafing where I needed some breathing room -- that's my complaint of all White Wolf's stuff, but it was especially bad where Mage was concerned. For instance, I can't see the Traditions being helpful at all to a practicing mage. They're not even good myth-o-forms -- D&D has far better ones (because they're time-honored ones, of course!). The utility of the whole Paradox concept escapes me. And why are the "Awakened" set against the rest of the world? Aren't the "Awakened" really just specialists in a technique everyone uses all the time? This particular point bugs me because it reeks of marketeering -- the Awakened are outcasts because that's how White Wolf's brand is shaped. Get your money out of my head!

With the right group of people, though, this could all be overcome.
 
 
iconoplast
06:27 / 19.02.03
I found out about the Invisibles from a discussion list for a game I never played, called Unknown Armies. Mage is a relativist bunch of hippy stuff, if you strip the flavor away and look at the mechanics and the worldview. The flavor, mind you, is cool. It's just that by the game's very nature, the flavor is irrelevant.

Unknown Armies is way grittier, and far more... I don't know. Contemporary. Videomancers who compulsively watch soap operas. Iconomancers channeling dead rock stars. Plutomancers whose mastery over the magic of money leads them to compulsive hoarding. Dispomancers whose magic only works while they're drunk. Pornomancy, Kleptomancy, Narcomancy...

And the cosmology centers around the 333 archetypes of The Invisible Clergy.



(Published by atlas games - www.atlas-games.com - and worth a look.)
 
 
Quantum
08:06 / 19.02.03
numberfortyeight, that scene sounds familiar! I instituted a house rule whereby the character had to describe his magic first, not mentioning spheres, then the player could say 'Forces 3 Prime 2' or whatever. It sometimes works... or else give those players a list of spells and use Quintessence as mana/spell points : )
Potguns- it is more freeform, yes, I think that's it's strength. I love In Nomine for it's background, but the system is clumsy- although I love the 3d6 dice system (if you roll 666 the devil intervenes, teehee) It would be great for a Buffy game- Buffy as a cherub, mmm...
"One of these days I hope to familiarize myself with the Mage tarot deck for divination purposes (against the objections of the publisher)." (Pefect Tommy) I've been a Tarot reader for ten years, and use the Mage deck as my primary deck. To be honest it is just a pretty version of the Waite/Smith deck, so any commentary on the 'Rider Waite' as they call it is relevant- I especially recommend Rachael Pollack's '78 degrees of wisdom'. Be prepared for people to take cups the wrong way though, as Primordialism (Cups) is assocated with the Fallen. The publishers have to have a disclaimer otherwise they get accused of spreading satanism etc.- ignore it, the deck is great.
Col.Qalyn- in my last game two players coincidentally chose the same surname, so I made them long lost brothers and it worked great- you're so right. Also about the White Wolf Bollocks- remember the Golden Rule- fuck with the rules until you like them. "The utility of the whole Paradox concept escapes me." (For those who don't know, 'Paradox' is what happens when you use vulgar magick, eg. throwing fireballs in McDonalds. When you change reality with your will, often it fights back. In the above example, paradox might manifest as the mage catching himself on fire- that'll teach her) Without Paradox the Mage world would be a Thaumocracy, wizards running around doing what they like- in fact it would be Shadowrun : ) Paradox stops mages trying to..tilt the planet off its axis or something equally stupid. It is also essential to the metaphysics- most people (and things) don't believe in magic, so that disbelief has power in the same way the mage's belief has power. It also acts as Karma, and the protector of the normal world, and reflects the price of power. 'That which you do returns to you threefold'. I consider Paradox an essential part of the game.
Iconoplast- Unknown Armies is a background really, and the different -omancers are different paradigms. Like Emphysymomancers, cigarette magick. There is no reason not to run Mage in a really gritty world if that's what you like, it's extremely flexible (I'm such an advert).
Numberfortyeight is right about the newbies, Mage is not a starter game. The players are much more assistant storytellers than most games, and it is pretty complex. Experienced players will get the most out of it- if you haven't played much before start with Vampire:the Masquerade (Superantiheroes with fangs) then *quickly* move on to Werewolf:the Apocalypse (combat monster ecowarriors) which is great.
(somewhere on the web there is a 'Creature:the evocative noun' random WW game name generator, teehee)
 
 
jeff
13:13 / 19.02.03
Just a little addendum really.
When I was Gming a while back, I set a rule so that when a player used out of charcter knowledge, they received a paradox backlash. Worked a treat, though they grumbled a lot!
 
 
FatherDog
13:58 / 19.02.03
potguns: "From the GM's perspective it's incredibly hard to figure the paths the players are gonna take especially with the the liberal magic system thus making writing pre ordained plot difficult and it always tends to be a little more freeform."

Some of us consider this a feature, not a bug...

"Been thinkin of runnin a Buffy style game ages."

Or, you could run a Buffy style game with Buffy.

http://www.btvsrpg.com/6100.htm

iconoplast: "Unknown Armies is way grittier, and far more... I don't know. Contemporary."

There was a recent discussion about this very subject on the UA list... I think the conclusion (or at least the one I supported) was that Mage was modern, UA is post-modern, and this is largely because of when each was written.

Modernism vs. Postmodernism: http://www.colorado.edu/English/ENGL2012Klages/pomo.html

Anyway. I'm playing in a Mage game, and GMing a UA game, at the moment. I like them both for different reasons.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
15:49 / 19.02.03
In the interests of making this thread fit the forum , does anyone know: where's the earlier thread we had in which someone (cusm?) described using Mage as a framework for non-game magick?
 
 
Potguns
16:11 / 19.02.03
Fatherdog: why buy extra books when the In nomine background is much richer? Spose it just boils to personal tastes and besides I dig the summoning shit in In nomine. Have you got the Buffy book and is it any good??? Anyone??

Some of us consider this a feature, not a bug...

The main reason I dislike Mage is a matter of opinion and can see how it would work well for some groups. I still think its WW's weakest game tho bar Wraith. If I wanna run a freeform game tho I dont use anything, no books just a couple of dice and see where it takes me. If I'm playing a game with 5+ books to reference from I expect it to have a more rigid structure. It's just Iv'e seen plots ripped to tatters in minutes and very irate 'tellers.

*still tugging at hat*
 
 
jeff
18:35 / 19.02.03
Could I try and sum things up here as I see them, with a little bit of bias.

Mage: The Ascension is a bitch to play, but when it works, and there are varying opinions on how often this is, it REALLY works.
I'm not saying its difficult or too hard to understand, its just somewhat cumbersome.

On another note, concerning use of the Mage system as a framework out of game....ummmmm, possibly you could develop a character that you could invoke, there are plenty of ideas within for magical systems. Truth be told, I know fuck all about Magic'K', even though I find it fascinating, and it really needs a player knowledgable in that side of things to give you a dignified response.
 
 
cusm
19:11 / 19.02.03
Hmm... There's this thread, but there's somewhere else I can't find now where I've rambled on about how I used the character and paradigm creation process in Mage to test run some techniques I ended up exploring on my own IRL. Yes, its good stuff, but I do this sort of thing because I've been working with RPG reality modeling systems for so long its a magical language of its own to me.

All the same, Mage is something you can get a lot out of, if you approach it from a magickal mindset rather than one of killing orcs. The meta-game rules are commentaries on magickal reality, some of which are applicable such as the paradox stuff of reality pushing back against you when you try to do magick that is to vulgar. The more coincidental and believable the effect, the more likely it is to work. That's something White Wolf and Peter Caroll will both agree on.

Oh, and for those who haven't tuned in to the latest editions, the Technocracy won the ascention war. Unfortunately, this means everyone looses, including the Technocracy. All the high powered guys left the planet before the pattern storms made dimentional travel impossible, leaving all the neophites behind to fend for themselves. Its a much more workable setting that way, I think. Less running from the Borg, and it lets Technocrat PCs get along with Tradition mages well enough for the game to work.
 
 
Tamayyurt
02:53 / 20.02.03
I have no intrest in rollplaying games and simply click onto this thread by mistake but I have to say, quantum... That openning post nearly made me jizz myself. What a great movie this game would make!
 
 
Quantum
09:46 / 20.02.03
I want to write a Mage movie, I think it would be great. Of course a lot of movies influence it or reflect it (Matrix, Fight Club, Dark City etc.) in fact in my game I used blockbuster movies to illustrate the secret propoganda war between the factions- Godzilla and Jurassic Park (Progenitors) Men in Black (NWO obviously) Terminator (It X) Matrix (Virtual Adepts) Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter (Order of Hermes, Traditions as a whole). It excellently illustrated the wider range of the Ascension War, that factions try to influence global beliefs and change the consensual paradigm in their favour- the war is about hearts and minds, not throwing spells.
I do the same as cusm, RPGs for me are worldviews to add to the toolbox. I find Mage especially useful because of it's 'meta' nature. It provides a conceptual framework and vocabulary to consider and talk about magical beliefs, what they have in common etc. Also I feel it is a plausible metaparadigm- just because it is presented as fiction doesn't invalidate it as a realistic view. The metaphysics are robust, it's well thought out and based on real world magical ideas- it's a bit postmodern, but that suits my magical style.
Not that I think you can actually throw fireballs, but 'coincidental magic' in Mage describes real world magic pretty accurately. You can't send lightning from your finger but you could use a taser, or the victim could step on an exposed wire etc.- the result is the same.

On real magick- I think a good game of mage can be an excellent informal working. Roleplaying, because it is an oral medium, relies heavily on the imagination. A group of people share a consensual imaginary world, envision it passionately for a few hours, enact psychodramas with characters that have no physical form, undergo (sometimes dramatic) emotional catharsis in a safe environment (the character experiences it). They work as a team, invest a lot of thought and energy into it, come away feeling tired but revitalised and with a sense of accomplishment.
Anybody noticing any similarity with magical workings? A lot of magic is about visualising, imaging, strongly imagining in your mind's eye. Roleplaying is excellent for developing and practising these specific skills.
 
 
Quantum
10:04 / 20.02.03
from cusm's link Perhaps we could do a bit of everything, a RPG with magickal rituals underneath, and a trading card game with tarot referencials, based both in the invisibles and in our own Berbelith experience? Use the RPG archetypes (based in the invisibles and tarot) to construct the characters and their cards. (ciarconn)
This pretty much describes Mage to a tee. (except the collectible cards, which I don't consider too much of a loss)
In the Mage Tarot they describe techniques for developing characters and plots from the deck as archetypes.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
22:10 / 20.02.03
What a great movie this game would make!

They already made a movie out of it--it was called Pi. It came out right around the time I was really getting interested in doing Mage right and was re-reading my rulebooks. I couldn't see Max as anything but a potential Son of Ether, fleeing from the Syndicate and the Celestial Chorus (or Order of Hermes?), his computer generating tass...

Erm. Hey potguns, got another hat?
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
22:48 / 20.02.03
Incidentally: having played in Quantum's last Mage game as a complete neophyte, I don't think it's that hard... It takes a while to get your head around, but that's because of the extra percentage of actual role-playing it requires per scene, not because the concepts involved are so esoteric.

Most roleplayers i) have an underdeveloped imagination and just want to pretend they're the kind of people who girls would fancy, or ii) enjoy the game for what it is and are interested in developing various ideas involved in said game. The trouble is, while you want more of ii) in your gaming life, you need to cater to their different needs and interests - not everyone's going to enjoy a trad Vampire game. I think Mage caters to all sorts, and a decent GM/Storyteller can interpolate the archetypes that his players represent into a cohesive and fun game. Plus you can use actual philosophical ideas within the game matrix without ruining everyone else's game. Got to be a good thing...
 
 
Potguns
01:12 / 21.02.03
Iv'e got my plush purple one with an ostrich feather in it. Thats my pimp hat.
 
 
moriarty
02:26 / 21.02.03
Hi. I know absolutely nothing about Magick. Sorry.

I played a Mage character in a mixed White Wolf campaign and really enjoyed myself. I can see how someone might have problems with min-maxers, but that's true of any game, really. It did take me a while to let my hair down and get accustomed to the mechanics of Mage, but once I did, it was sucj a treat, and easily my favourite of all magic systems I've encountered. I especially liked how you couldn't be seen performing spells by "civilians" or you would experience backlash. It really forced me to be creative. Because of that, I was so subtle that the other characters actually had no idea I was a mage for our first few games.
 
 
Seraphim
09:13 / 21.02.03
As one who has an extensive background as a closet occultist acting GM, I feel that, although the Mage-line is some the best material White Wolf has ever published (being cheap mass-marketing opportunists), I personally always enjoyed the darker aspects of roleplaying magic. With Unknown Armies being a personal favourite at the moment, largely because of its chao-magick and urban shamanism influences (with a great deal of ritual thrown in), I still feel connected to my early ventures in Kult, and its very dark gnostic/kabbalistic symbolism with (even more) dark ritual magic.

As far as mind-bending is concerned, I think early indoctrination of Mage gives a fertile ground to plant seeds of magic, although real understanding of "illusory reality" comes through extensive Kult-gaming (in which, "reality is a lie"). The more gritty, spontaneous/ritualistic Hellblazer-style magic blend (giving a bit of a reality check for mages) comes through Unknown Armies.

Other games of interest:
Ars Magica, set in a mythic middle-ages europe, with the most creative rpg-magic system ever (a pain to learn and get flowing, though), with clear cut references to Alchemy and Hermetic magic. (Published by Atlas Games)
Over the Edge, not really a game of magic, rather a surreal nightmare. Good for perceptive exercises. (Also by Atlas Games)
Changeling, maby at a glance To Fluffy for You, but hides gems of reality/perceptive training in key with Promethea (published by White Wolf)

So, RPG, (huh), - what is it good for? In my opinion, as I've hinted above, quite a lot for the beginning magician/occultist.
The main reasons for roleplaying yourself into a magic lifestyle, is the training of imagination and perception. Basic symbolism and myth is provided for free in most of them (play all, and you'll have an introduction to most occult philosophy), and a basic understanding of magic technique can be learned from Mage, Kult, Unknown Armies and Ars Magica. Roleplaying, although geeky, is also a lot more socially acceptable (and easier to explain) than magic and occult studies - which is especially good for (young) people, who don't want to "go public" with an intrest in the occult, and still be able to explain what they're doing with a bunch of friends and a bunch of books on Saturday night (suspiciousness from "adults" arise quickly when books take the place of booze among friends..).

So; a good cover for study, basic introduction to philosophy and practise and training of the mind are all good reasons to play. Also, it gives a good social training to those who would normally fall into early magic pitfalls of solitary practice, and a bit of buffer to seriousness (no roleplaying group could play without just a bit of discordian immaturity...).

- §eraphim, post-modern knight of not-so-popular culture. Don't get me started on film.
 
 
FatherDog
14:26 / 21.02.03
Fatherdog: why buy extra books when the In nomine background is much richer?

You said you wanted to run a Buffy Style game. Since the Buffy game is specifically designed to do that, and the IN system is not, it would probably be a better choice, mechanics-wise. I'd disagree that the background is "richer"; the pantheon of In Nomine might be more to your taste, but after 7 years, the ins and outs of the Buffyverse are really quite complex in depth and breadth.



Spose it just boils to personal tastes and besides I dig the summoning shit in In nomine.

I'm not saying you shouldn't use the In Nomine background and setting, if that's what you'd rather, but the IN resolution system is heavily biased in favor of superhumans. It's very difficult for an ordinary mortal to succeed in doing anything, and that's very much against the flavor of a Buffy game, where the Xanders of the world often come through in the clutch. The Buffy system is set up to provide more balance in this respect.

Have you got the Buffy book and is it any good??? Anyone??

Haven't gotten it, have read parts, have played a Buffy campaign. I think it's excellent, but one of my friends is also a major contributor to it; I am admittedly biased.

If I wanna run a freeform game tho I dont use anything, no books just a couple of dice and see where it takes me.

Mage isn't a "freeform game"; it's a set game that happens to have a very flexible magic system. Because of this it can be easily cobbled around to suit many different styles of play, but it's certainly not a freeform game.

If I'm playing a game with 5+ books to reference from I expect it to have a more rigid structure.

Why on earth would you ever need more than two books to play Mage? Anything beyond the base book and players guide is helpful for fleshing out setting, but completely superfluous to actual play.

It's just Iv'e seen plots ripped to tatters in minutes and very irate 'tellers.

If a plot can be ripped to tatters in minutes, it's generally a sign of poor plotting, no matter what the game.


Getting at least a /little/ back on topic...

For those who are familiar with UA, have you ever considered Evoking or Invoking one of the Archetypes in a working? How did it turn out? Which one(s)?
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
15:40 / 23.02.03
A lot of the criticisms labeled against Mage above sound like they are more to do with the players/GMs than the system itself. Don't get me wrong there are huge flaws with the system but none of them are detailed above. Because of the open endedness of the mages it requires a group who are mature enough to be more interested in the validity of the setting and the story rather than abusing the rules. It also requires a lot more creativity and invention on the part of the players than many players are prepared to give (and GMs often to allow them).

The sort of areas that it seems to be felt that Mage is good for exploring can be explored in just about any game, again if you've got a good group, though admittedly Mage is more condusive to this sort of thinking.

I have discussed with a friend of mine the possibility of using a mage campaign as a kind of met sigil. Two things put me off. One is my friend suggested that perhaps I did not want the players to be set loose inside my subconcious and all the potential for things to go wrong with the sigil itself as you can't predict what players will do.
The second is role playing through several moral panics about RPGs=occult I'm loathe to add to that sterotype and there is an element of "I'm trying to live my character" if you see what I mean which worries me.

That said I have considered doing a sigil of some of my negative aspects that are plaguing me at the moment attaching it to the charcter sheet of an NPC I'm running at the moment and having the players horribly murde the NPC. My friend described this as exorcism through geek, geekomancy.
 
 
Rev. Wright
20:22 / 23.02.03
'White Wolf' did the same thing to role playing that 'Games Workshop' did to war gaming.

Looking in my cupboard of a myriad of systems and homegrown realities, the trophies on the shelf, I have to say there is definitely some connection to the (over)active imagination and an interest in the occult.

I'm not sure if the thought depresses me slightly.

Maybe it is a fact that roleplaying is an entry level hobby, a socially accepted (though excluded) subgroup within which to explore esoteria.
 
 
Quantum
10:06 / 24.02.03
"exorcism through geek, geekomancy" LOL! fear my wrath, or be plagued by the power of the mighty Geek!
Seriously, if you can stand the social ostracism of roleplaying then you are likely to be strong willed enough to stand the social ostracism of being an occultist. I think of it as hazing : ) I've noticed an interest in roleplaying is often closely related to an interest in comics, fantasy/sci fi and other 'escapist' hobbies ie. ones that favour the strongly imaginative. (I'm not sure if the thought depresses me slightlyWill, don't think that way- don't be depressed about it, use it to advance any geekomantic powers you can- waste not want not )

'White Wolf' did the same thing to role playing that 'Games Workshop' did to war gaming. so true- got really successful, became the mainstream, tried to milk their fans dry of cash, became universally reviled. Just like some pop bands really. Again I say, ignore the White Wolf bollocks. And read what Phil Brucato has written most closely- if he's not a magician then neither is Alan Moore, and I'll eat my hat. (Neil Gaiman quote "One day the good people of Northampton will rise up and burn Alan as a warlock, and that will be a sad day for the world")
 
 
Kamal Smith
12:03 / 24.02.03
Ello Ben. Just thought I'd pop in and say Hi.
 
 
Quantum
13:33 / 24.02.03
Hello! (to those who do not know- my name is Benedict, Quantum is just my middle name and username. Is my middle name a fictionsuit I wonder? If I burn it will I have to use my other middle name [Fierdash- no, really] and what magical repercussions might that have? Whoops, rotting my own thread as they say)
What relevance do you think RPGs can have to real magic? compared to, say, comics? The difference to me is the interaction, roleplaying is a group working exploring a world freeform, reading is a personal working being given a guided tour of a world by the author. That difference also stands for literature, cinema etc. any passive medium.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
17:07 / 24.02.03
"Phil Brucato"

Yeah, he's a practicing pagan. And while he contributed some of the hands-down best bits to Mage, he's also responsible for the fluffy-pagans vs. the evils of the man theme that has dominated the game until recently.

And to be a bit more on topic here... I'm a huge gamer, and I used to play Mage often. (We're talking 1st ed here) However, since I've become more dedicated to practicing magick over the years, my interest in Mage has dropped to zero. It's a cool game, and the magick rules are fantastic, but the setting has to go, in my opinion, to do anything truly cool.
 
 
Quantum
09:30 / 25.02.03
For those readers not familiar with the magic system in mage it works like this- there are an infinite number of possible spells out there, so to codify and organise magic the order of Hermes divides magic into nine domains or 'Spheres', corresponding to the nine planets etc. They are:
Mind (Mental Magic)
Correspondence (Spatial Magic)
Time (chocolate biscuit magic- no wait, Time magic)
Spirit (take a guess)
Life (uh, Life)
Matter (um.. I forget)
Forces (Energy Magic)
Prime ('Meta'magic, antimagic etc.)
Entropy (Chance Fate and Fortune, chaos and order magic)

ANY spell can be fitted into these categories, more complex rotes are conjunctional effects using more than one. e.g. Life and Matter to turn somebody to stone. Often similar effects use different spheres, for example to be invisible could use Mind (to be ignored) Forces (to wrap the light around yourself) or life and matter (to become transparent). Knowledge of the spheres is ranked from 1 (neophyte) to 5 (Master), gauging a mages power in each sphere.

It is said that the spheres form a loop- Prime (magic) is focused through Mind (will/knowledge) into the world (Life/Matter/Forces things in a Time/Correspondence/Spirit world) which is destroyed by Entropy, freeing the Prime energy to be used as the start of a new cycle. The creation and destruction of the universe follows this cycle.

Some spheres complement each other (e.g. Correspondence/Time, to affect the timespace continuum, scry the future and past elsewhere etc) but they are all as important as each other.
 
 
Quantum
13:53 / 26.02.03
Watched 'Dark City' again last night, fantastic Mage film, wicked setting, great magical duel at the end. Best Mage films are kung-fu action genre in my opinion (Big Trouble in Little China, The One, the Duel etc.)
Kevin- do you feel that your interest in Mage led to your interest in Magick? (I think of Mage as occult training wheels) and
What relevance do you think RPGs can have to real magic?
 
 
Rev. Wright
15:18 / 26.02.03
Maybe it is a fact that roleplaying is an entry level hobby, a socially accepted (though excluded) subgroup within which to explore esoteria.
 
  

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