BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Does precognition disprove free will? Does the chicken?

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Rage
05:54 / 08.02.03
I couldn't decide if this should be posted in "you-can't-say-the-word-'bong'-here" or Magick, so I decided to throw it in Here.

Can precognition and free will exist simultaneously? Does precognition negate free will? Does precognition prove determinism? Does determinism prove precognition? If you're able to feel an event before it comes on: is it the feeling itself that causes the event to take place? Would the event have taken place if it wasn't for the feeling?
 
 
Jack Denfeld
07:38 / 08.02.03
There are many possibilities in life. Precogs see the msot likely, but can of course change the outcome. What didn't happen, but was possibly going to happen becomes an alternate reality that keeps moving forward. At least that's what the funny books say.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
12:40 / 08.02.03
To answer the question properly then there would need to be concise and accurate definitions of both precognition and determinism. Without such the mean determiniation of opinion will result in transconfusional debate, which is good for no one, especially the chicken.

On the other hand;
yes
no
possibly
vice versa
foucoult
jung
 
 
Bill Posters
12:48 / 08.02.03
Ohmygod, I dreamed about posting on a discussion about this very issue last night! And I'm not gonna post on it, 'cos that would mean I am not in control. So there. Fate, I hereby defy thee!
 
 
Bill Posters
12:49 / 08.02.03
Awww, shucks.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
13:00 / 08.02.03
But Mr. Posters, is it not a potential condition of Fate that causing you to dream of posting on a thread of this very topic is directly playing to a contrary nature to get you to not post on this thread? If you are responding to a primary instinct then I would contend that you are not defying Fate but in actual fact a poor, indefensible, pawn in its nefarious grander scheme.
 
 
Bill Posters
13:58 / 08.02.03
You know, I think you may be right. But if I am a pawn, then I am a hardcore pawn.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:26 / 08.02.03
Screw determinism, stupid idiocy in a nutshell turtle power theory, we just remember what's already happened and the future has it's just that our 3-D brains organise time in to a linear format.
 
 
Bill Posters
11:32 / 09.02.03
There's a book by Stephen King and a film of it with Christopher Walken about this called The Dead Zone. I don't recall exactly what happened, but was blown away by the film when I was a kid. Someone who's read the book can tell us what the King feller makes of this question, with the appropriate spoilers warning, I guess.
 
 
rizla mission
13:48 / 09.02.03
This question's a bit too logical for my liking.
 
 
Bill Posters
13:59 / 09.02.03
It is rather logical innit? Good God. Young Rage? Getting logical? I rilly am starting to suspect a case of suit-hijacking.
 
 
Persephone
19:23 / 09.02.03
Go ahead and laugh at me, I am going to take this question seriously. I had never thought before that precognition could be a matter of calculating probabilities. That's it, isnt it... we live in a universe of probability, not certainty. So perhaps a "precog" simply is more sensitive to or more able to calculate probabilities than other people. And may also be clairvoyant, but that's not necessary or impossible. But for example, an ordinary person can drop a ball and predict with relative certainty that it will hit the ground. A pool shark can hit a ball with a cue and predict with relative certainty where a whole bunch of balls will go on the table. I can't do that, certainly; but there's people who can, and there's more people who have all manner of talents that I don't have. But anyway if you look at it like this, there's no conflict with precognition and free will. It's just that perhaps someone extremely talented can figure out with relative certainty what you're going to do with your free will...
 
 
illmatic
20:44 / 09.02.03
I think this question is meshing together to very diferent sets of variables - the whole notion of "free will" is something rooted in the Western philosphical traditions while the whole concept of pre-cognition, if you're taking it seriously as a phenomona and not just using it to illustrate philosphical ideas, comes from ... somewhere else, somewhere more disreputable.

The few people I've talked to where people have had (or have claimed to have had) some experience of fore knowledge never experienced it as a contradiction to their free will, probably because it was a weird freaking out surprise; "free will" on the other hand, is a pretty abstract concept that we might argue about in books but is hard to get a handle on in your day to day life. The two concepts occupy pretty different terrains - "free will" that of philosphical discourse, precognition - religous/mystical/cranky, depending on your pov.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:32 / 10.02.03
OK, from what I remember of studying such matters:

Determinism is not a single entity, but rather a description common to a number of different views of the universe. The most common form of determinism is one in which God (for want of a better term) knows everything that has happened, will happen and is happening. A variant of this, known as the watchmaker theory, is that, although God is not currently overseeing his creation, he set it up in a particular way and it is now "running down" - heading mechanistically to a particular set of conclusions. Both of these have implications for free will, int he sense that, as dear old Robert Rankin puts it, if a divine being has known since the beginning of time what you're going to be having for breakfast today, it rather invalidates the notion fo free will. This is a simplification, but more on that later.

This is propostion (a). Proposition (b) turns up in strength in the 16-17th century, when the doctrine of free will is pretty much accepted by the church as a necessary element in the dialogue of salvation, but also when physics was developing a relationship between cause and effect. One way to reconcile this, originated by Descartes and developed by Guelincx, was to presume that the body was bound by the laws of physics, and thus in effect a marionette of the divine (the laws of physics and the universe in general being a construction of the divine), although Descartes subsequently modified his opinion to allow for the mind acting upon the body. Guelincx's "rwo clocks" idea is a handy one here, for its purity; he argues that the mind and body are both running simultaneosuly, but that there is no connection between the wish to raise an arm and the raising of an arm; the two are concurrent through divine plan rather than through volition. More moderate variations on the same theme have the body as physically dictated but the mind free to think independently, and thus make moral judgements and decisions, which are more important than the actions of the body that they dictate to a greater or lesser extent.

Skip a few centuries. The modenr conception of preordination is *scientific* preordination. In scientific preordination, every action is the result of certain scientific principles, down to the action of cause and effect in the electrochemistry of the brain, and therefore ever action is in the purest sense predetermined by every cause feeding into it. Thus, if somebody understood precisely all the rules by which the universe works, and all the conditions operating in the universe at any specific time, then they can extrapolate the conditions operating in the universe at any point before or after that time.

Point being, it's impossible to know either the rules by which the universe functions or the condition of the universe in every particular; it would require absolutely infinite understanding, and thus basically divinity. There's a comparative argument that al lhuman reactions and responses are socially and culturally determined, which basically exists to claim that ethics are cultural rather than instinctive and that absolute morality doesn't exist. We don't need to consider this case too closely outside the broader argument of scientific determinism for the moment.

One of the arguments cited both in favour and in opposition of this model of determinism is Chaos; those in favour supplementarily using the argument that both posit a model of the universe that is in effect infinitely complex and bound by infinitely complex rules, and those against arguing that the extra level of complexity introduced by emergent properties makes the idea of the status of the universe at one moment being a map by which the status of the universe at another point can be determined meaningless. You'd have to talk to a mathematician about this for a more detailed look.

The point of this? Well, consider when one is looking at a complex sentence in another language or a complex equation, and the instinctual human capacity to recognise patterns and remembered understanding of the rules provide an apparent revelation, when the conscious mind becomes suddenly aware of the solution, yes? Well, one might see precognition ,in this view of the universe, as a moment when the finite but significant pattern recognition capabilities of the human mind, enhanced perhaps by trance state, mystic power or similar according to one's wishes, might at one moment and without conscious application recognise with some degree of accuracy some emergent possibility the conscious mind would not in itself be able to detect.

In which model the question of predestination is indeed not entirely relevant to the question of precognition, only the case that the universe perates as a system, albeit an infinitely complex one, and by isolating certain patterns within that system and recognising them one might "predict the future" to some degree of success or other. There *is* a question over whether what we conceive of a sfree will operates within or transcend the system of the physical universe.

I suggest this thread be moved either to the magic, the Laboratory or the Head Shop (I'd say the Head Shop, probably). Also that either before or after its transtion, it be given a topic abstract.
 
 
Smoothly
09:57 / 10.02.03
Anna de Longardiere, if we just remember what's already happened and the future has it's just that our 3-D brains organise time in to a linear format, how does this screw determinism? If events in our 'Future' (as our minds perceive it) have already happened then that's a perfect model of all our actions being predetermined, non?

Persephone - Likening human actions to the behaviour of the balls in a game of pool seems sensible to me: You hit the ball in a particular way and you can predict what it will do. You hit a person in a particular way and you can predict what ze will do. It might be that some people predict future events by making exactly these sorts of calculations. But take, for instance, Rage's dream about a shuttle crashing, the night before one actually did. If this was a case of precognition rather than coincidence, do you think it's likely to be the result of her unconscious calculations about angles of descent, surface temperatures, the durability and life-span of shuttle components etc?
And anyway, even if it is, I'm also not sure that a model of human actions as being a kind of Newtonian cause and effect isn't every bit as devastating to any hope that our actions are free (and by that I mean not purely rule-governed reactions to events that occurred before we were born) than AdL's model that our lives are like a written book that we haven't finished reading yet.

But that's just me. And I'm probably misunderstanding what people mean by 'free will'. Any takers on defining that?
 
 
Smoothly
09:58 / 10.02.03
Fuck.
Must.remember.to.refresh.before.posting....
 
 
Lurid Archive
21:32 / 10.02.03
Just a couple of thoughts. I think determinism can be misleading in a way, as it conjures up images of our lives being on some kind of railway track. Thing is, as Haus says, even if it is you don't necessarily know where you are going or where you'll end up.

Its useful to seprate the notions of determinism and predictability, since the former may be almost entirely disentangled from the latter. You can have a deterministic system where the only way to get information on it is to essentially let the system run and see what happens. In a sense, you don't know any more than if the system wasn't deterministic, and you have to be locally omniscient anyway.

Whats interesting is that these problems crop up with even the simplest deterministic systems. Newtonian mechanics, for example, is often thought of as a clockwork model and it is. But you don't necessarily know what the clock is going to say in the future. Chaos, in other words, is a property of deterministic systems.

What does that say for free will? Not sure, but from any human perspective, determinism may be indistiguishable from its absence. And asking about whether determinism is the true nature of reality may be meaningless, in a sense.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:46 / 11.02.03
I did not imply fate, I implied that everything happens at the same time, thus determinism is entirely defunct.
 
 
Smoothly
12:59 / 11.02.03
[travisbickleimpression]You talkin' to me?[/travisbickleimpression]
What do you mean by everything happens at the same time? Do you mean that all events happened (or are happening) simultaneously and independently of one another? That cause and effect is an illusion created by our minds?
 
 
JohnnyYen
13:14 / 11.02.03
If a Tory says something in a forest and nobody's there to hear him, is he still wrong?
 
 
grant
14:01 / 11.02.03
I think what Anna is saying is that time is an illusion caused by our perceptions of events, so that our finite brains can make sense of things happening.

I'm with y'all on the pattern-recognition thing. I also suspect that telepathy works on a similar basis, with a telepath being someone who's very good at extrapolating another person's train of thought, and/or very perceptive about the incredibly complex, subtle cues that most of us just gloss over.

There's that Robert Anton Wilson gag about paying attention to ALL the little details - I have a feeling this is what he's (or his sources are) going on about.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:22 / 11.02.03
The pattern recognition thing is pretty plausible, especially if you look at the way people solve even the most logical of problems. Chess is a good example here.

As for time being an illusion and everything happening at once...Its certainly plausible, in a way, but I wouldn't phrase it like that. I mean, anyone sane has a notion of time, being late and getting older. In that sense its no more (or less) an illusion than the chair I am sitting on.

It may make sense to say that linear time is a particular constraint that we have which can be circumvented. It also may make sense to talk about time as an observable entity in a holistic fashion - just as one can talk about an edge of a ruler, rather than just points on the edge. So that you can observe time outside of time and see different moments simultaneously.

I think our intuitions of what it means to be external to time are going to be very poor, moreso because language is littered with temporal reference points. From a maths point of view, it can be made to make sense, though I've no idea how valid it might be.
 
 
Smoothly
15:53 / 11.02.03
Lurid - Could you expand a little (and in terms as layman as possible) what the implications of Chaos theory are for a view of physical systems as deterministic. Is a system which is complex and difficult to predict any different in terms of 'freedom' than one which is simple and easy to predict? Does chaos introduce randomness, in the sense that events could occur without a cause of the traditional kind? Might it help us build a model by which we could understand actions caused by a will that transcended normal causal mechanisms?
In other words, could my will be anything beyond the sum of my inclinations, past experiences etc (which were themselves caused by things that were caused by things ..... that were caused by things that happened before we were born)?
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:28 / 11.02.03
I can try, but you should take anything I say with a pinch of salt, given that most interesting observations rely on interpretation as much as anything and my own philosophical stance is bound to colour things.

Is a system which is complex and difficult to predict any different in terms of 'freedom' than one which is simple and easy to predict?

In the strictest sense, no. But given our lack of omniscience, and the lattitude with which which you can interpret or model reality, the distinction between a chaotic deterministic system and a non-deterministic one is rather abstract.

To put it another way, what does determinism mean? That things are determined by (complex) causes? To assume that one can decide whether a system is or is not deterministic in an absolute sense is to posit a god like observer. What caused the apple to fall? Deterministic gravity? Non-deterministic quantum effects? Deterministic M-branes? Non-deterministic..etc, etc.

Chaos at least suggests that you can have unknowably deterministic systems, without however introducing randomness. I should probably point out that the question "What is randomness?" is extremely problematic.

In fact, most of these questions are difficult, probably to the point of being unanswerable. For what its worth, if I can't tell the difference between my actions being determined by experience and biology (at a minute, complex level) and my actions being non-deterministic, then I don't really care one way or the other.

Might [chaos] help us build a model by which we could understand actions caused by a will that transcended normal causal mechanisms?

Depends what you mean. Probably not, but I get the feeling that "normal causal mechanisms" means something particular. Again, chaos is behaviour that is seen in the simplest of deterministic systems where everything follows straightforward rules.

But then I'm probably the wrong person to ask, since if I were forced to pick a side I'd say that our will doesn't transcend causal mechanisms (can't say about normal).
 
 
Quantum
09:34 / 12.02.03
Two points on causality- Firstly, Quantum mechanics shows that at a fundamental level causation ceases to have any meaning- particles are time symmetrical, pop in and out of being etc. Causation is a human idea (like time in my opinion). The idea of a Newtonian, mechanistic universe, and thus causal determinism, is out of date.
Secondly, the principle of Causation is dependant on the Principle of Induction, famously thrown into doubt by Hume. Induction is the idea that if I experience something regularly (e.g. sunrise) I can predict it will continue to occur regularly. the problem of Induction (in a nutshell) is this- why should the sun rise tomorrow? Because it always has in the past. Why should the future resemble the past? Because it always has in the past, so it will in the future...
The principle of Induction is circular- it appeals to itself for validity, and is thus Irrational. Causation depends upon Induction- we see one billiard ball strike another and move it in the same way lots of times, we say 'aha! the first ball *causes* the second to move!' Thus Causation is Irrational. These 'Laws' are rules of human psychology, not laws of Nature. [Note: all empirical methodology (i.e. Science) depends entirely on induction.]
So if Causation is a human illusion, that only leaves an omniscient being of some kind to Predetermine our actions and deny us free will. I believe absolute Omniscience to be a paradoxical quality, like Omnipotence, so I believe myself to be free. On top of that, it seems obvious to me that we have free will- look at the stupid things we do.
[Note 2: JohnnyYen, If a Tory says something they are wrong, irrespective of external conditions- it's a law of nature. Also, do you ever set yourself on fire?]
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:22 / 12.02.03
So if Causation is a human illusion, that only leaves an omniscient being of some kind to Predetermine our actions and deny us free will. I believe absolute Omniscience to be a paradoxical quality, like Omnipotence, so I believe myself to be free.

Two big "if"s there. One, if causation is a human illusion and two, if omniscience is a paradoxical quality. The point about omniscience, or rather the positing of an omniscient entity, is that it
sets up a series of conflicts, the most obvious being quantum mechanics. Do we assume that there is no system or pattern to quantum events, or only that the systems are infinitely complex, or finitely complex but possessed of a compelxity beyond our current capacity to comprehend. There's an inductive element in the idea that, because no patttern has been found to events at a quantum level, no pattern wil be found to events at a quantum level....

Second up, I'm not sure that precognition, or omniscience for that matter, exclude free will. If the system is closed, free will is one of the determinable factors operating in the universe. If the system is open and emergent, then free will can function as one of the emergent properties. In what sense do precognition or omniscience make any more difference to that than (and Heisenberg could come in handy here, if you're feeling perverse) watching a match being struck affects the physics of combustion?
 
 
Smoothly
10:31 / 12.02.03
Quantum - But can't you just justify induction on the grounds that it nearly always works? That's just true isn't it? Why do you need to justify it in any other way?
 
 
Persephone
12:41 / 12.02.03
The key is "nearly always works," isn't it? That right there shows an event can be predictable but isn't necessarily determinable. (Not sure if "determinable" is the right word there, but sometimes I am a slave to parallel construction.) In other words, just because an event can be predicted with reasonable certainty doesn't have to mean that it was predestined to happen exactly that way.

In my previous post I was only saying that precognition may not conflict with free will, if precognition is not conflated with predestination (or determinism). If precognition is "really" a matter of calculating probabilities into an unwritten future, rather than reading ahead in the book. Which is kind of a Kobayashi manuever of an assumption, I admit.

I don't suppose that I'm really interested in the problem of predestination vs. free will. I think that most popular conceptions of free will are sort of cheesy; the whole doctrine of free will seems like a weak attempt at empowerment and mostly like an expression of powerlessness to me. I was actually thinking about Minority Report when I was thinking about this question. If that movie had been done properly, it ought to have brought out two other points: 1) Just because you're free doesn't mean that you're not predictable, which would have brought out a different set of ethics re: future crimes, and perhaps 2) What are the implications of being free of your own will?

Hm. I'm not satisfied with this post, but I am late again... really, really late...
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:38 / 12.02.03
Quantum: Once you dismiss induction as irrational, you have a severely restricted and perhaps non-existent epistemology which also may, as Haus points out, undermine itself. Not to mention the effect on ethics. I think that saying something is irrational only has content if there is something left which is rational. Causality might still be an illusion, of course, but what couldn't?

Also, anyone want to attempt a definition of "free will"? Quantum claims to be free because of the paradoxical nature of omniscience. Which rather reduces the question to one of logic, which is curious. It also seems to equate freedom in action with freedom from observation, with determinism only acting via an entity. I reckon this is a fairly natural position to take, in that we often find it easiest to imagine actors behind every cause. Is it defensible though?
 
 
Smoothly
13:55 / 12.02.03
Persephone - My queston to Quantum was more specifically about dismissing inductive reasoning on the grounds of it being justified inductively. But that aside, what I was trying to say to you was that if argue that the art of precognition is in predicting consequences - like a pool player predicts position - then the implicit assumption is that people's actions are subject to the kind of causality that a game of pool is. And I'm suggesting that if that's the case then free-will can take an early bath, precogs or no precogs.
I suppose I'm talking about inevitability. To pick up on some of the points made by Haus and the Archive, if all causes are governed by rules, however complex or unknowable, then all events since the universe went into motion have been inevitable - even if they weren't easy to predict. If we repeated the 'universe experiment' with the same forces acting on the same initial conditions I would again find myself born, doing the same things and making all the same decisions. (This of course has troubling consequences. If the feeling of having choices is just an illusion created by an inability to calculate the outcome of ultimately mechanistic responses, how can we be held responsible for any of our actions that are as imposed upon us as the colour of our skin? Does it make sense to make a moral judgement on a deceitful person but not on a slow clock? etc etc)

Minority Report is an interesting example. I thought it a flaw in the film that since we're told that the precogs are never wrong in their predictions (hence the justification for punishing people who hadn't yet committed a crime) why do they never see Tom Cruise and co crashing in through the ceiling? If they couldn't predict that, how could they be so sure that someone or something else wouldn't prevent the crime?

I think care is needed with the word 'predictable'. There is an everyday sense in which it means 'easy to predict' or open to accurate estimation (eg. a novel having a predictable ending). There is also the sense of being theoretically calculable, as in not totally random (a nod to Lurid here and the fact that mootness as to what randomness might be - that that's kind of the point). If the universe if predicable in the second sense then we are surely not free regardless of whether we are or not in the first. It is this second sense that I imagine was implied to justify the pre-emptive justice meted out in Minority Report, despite that fact that an pressumption of this would cast doubt on our very notions of morality blame and justice. Exploring that paradox would have made a much better film I reckon.

I'm rambling, I do apologise.
 
 
Quantum
14:01 / 12.02.03
To clarify- The quantum uncertainty etc. is just to show that scientific predeterminism is implausible. The Induction/causation problem is much more wideranging in it's implications. For example, quantum physics is based on induction...
I do not categorise myself as free because there is no omniscient being, I simply see no threats to my freedom. I consider myself obviously free, who could think otherwise? In the same way, I believe in Induction and Causation- who doesn't? I simply point out that they are articles of faith, and are NOT rationally defensible standpoints as most scientists would have you believe. Many 'Rationalists' are in fact slaves to literalism, hypnotised by the lure of 'Truth' through Science. The scientific establishment is just as oppressive and dogmatic as any religious establishment.
 
 
Persephone
02:00 / 13.02.03
Oh, oh I see what you're saying, Smoothly! And I'm sorry that I didn't get back to you on your earlier comment about the balls on the pool table, I meant to and then I left it out. Very interesting! Yes, I was using the word "predictable" in the everyday sense that you say. As in, I will predictably be five minutes late for work tomorrow. But there's just an outside chance that I won't lollygag at all & will get out the door at 8:45, which will ensure that I'll be on time. Actually, this morning I was *ten* minutes late for work because I didn't realize that it had snowed overnight & I had to scrape the windshield (and did a very poor job, drove all the way to work with my head hanging out the window. I looked like a dog driving a car.)

Or for another example, I mentioned in another thread that I have seriously not won at Rock Paper Scissors against my husband in probably eighteen months. And I mean not once.

So what I was thinking for Minority Report was that there could be these "pre-cogs" who could predict --in this ordinary sense-- future events, except that they would use extraordinary, extrasensory powers to do so. But still, they would be calculating probabilities into an as yet unwritten future; there would just be an outside chance that something else could happen. And of course they would be limited by the limits of their "vision." What I might find interesting about such a scenario would be as much to say, oh sure you're free... but you can be figured out, more often than not. Perhaps this was in the movie, and I shut it out because I tend to shut out Tom Cruise. My impression was that the movie was rather more struggling with the conflict between the future being written and man's ability to rewrite this future. Which I sort of think is impossible and uninteresting. Just a little bit more of a slant would have given up something more like man's struggle to rewrite his own tendencies. It sort of goes along with what Quantum says

I consider myself obviously free

by which I mean, it gets past the question "Am I free or am I not free?" and gets more to "Okay, I'm free. Big whoop." Know what I mean? The former question keeps freedom on a pedestal, which means not at all in one's grasp.

I must say, though, that I like your rewriting of the movie as well. Even in its everyday sense, the idea of predictability can almost imply inevitability; and then there's "the sense of being theoretically calculable." Rules, yeah. I wasn't thinking about rules before, only tendencies (or perhaps only random data). Hm hm hm... anyway looking at the whole thing this way, in the case of Minority Report, I think the problem was with punishment. They had punishment and no crime, or they had Pre-Crime and Punishment & that didn't seem to bother anyone in the least. Pre-Punishment never crossed anyone's minds?

But I'm thinking now that it doesn't matter whether one talks about predictability in an everyday or some kind of theoretical sense, they're both fairly devastating to the idea of freedom. Which I guess I'm okay with... oh I remember, it was you who were perplexed at the notion of one's unconscious hiding things from one's own self; so perhaps we're talking again across a divide. But I like that, if only because you can tell me what it's like on the other side...
 
 
Lurid Archive
07:53 / 13.02.03
Quantum: I disagree with almost everything in your last post, but its probably best not to discuss it as it would take us too far afield.

I'm more interested in Persephone's points about predectability and free will. Is predictability really devastating to free will?

Suppose you were driving and you saw a dog in the road. Do you swerve to avoid it, stop, or deliberately run it over? Anyone who would run it over can stop reading now, but I think lots of us would avoid causing harm like that. Lets also assume that you can avoid the dog safely. OK. Now suppose you were given the same situation again. Would you do the same again? Perhaps. Perhaps you would always avoid the dog, if you were a keen supporter of animal rights. Which means that you are predictable. But are you less free?

Just because its written, doesn't mean that you didn't put the writing there.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:35 / 13.02.03
OK - let's go back to free will for a second, and consider what we mean by it. I'd like to draw on the work of G.E. Moore, notably the Principia Ethica and Keifer Sutherland, notably 24.

In one sense, the determinist sense, Keifer's actions might be said to be motivated by his past experiences, and as such are not in fact "free". In another sense, of course, his actions are also not free, because at various points in the series he is being compelled to act in a certain way because his family are being held hostage. So, we have conception of freedom (1), in which Keifer takes actions as responses to stimuli which, although more complex, are in fact not much more surprising than Keifer deciding, as he has decided every day for the last twenty years, to begin his day with a cup of black coffee if he finds himself awaking in his own house with fresh coffee available. Conception of freedom (2) is a bit more complex. leaving aside the question of determinism for a second, Keifer could presumably respond to the kidnap of his wife in any number of ways. He could say "fuck it" and go golfing. He could have a nervous breakdown. He could go by the book, or he could behave in a way that he would not normally behave if there was a security threat to a presidential candidate, on the grounds that they have his daughter/wife/border collie. His decision may be as predictable, in a determinist universe, as his decision to have a cup of coffee in the morning or indeed as predictable as the knowledge that if you drop a piano on him he will go squish. In another sense, however, his will is clearly not free here, or as free; his choice is being compelled by extraordinary factors. I think it's Strawson who says that we only consider actions praiseworthy or blameworthy if those actions are in some sense of the term free. Therefore, despite repeatedly breaking protocol, Keifer would not be considered as blameworthy as he would have been if he had, for example, driven a coworker out to a deserted location and shot her in the chest, having previously provided her with a bulletproof vest, on a whim or because a friend phoned up and suggested it.

We're moving away from precognition here, but work with me. Moore's maxim is that an action can be said to be a free action if it agrees with the statement I could have done otherwise, that is that I made a conscious choice to do so, and could, if I had chosen, have done otherwise, because that choice was open to me. So, Keifer could say that, given who he was and what the course of his life had made of him thus far, he could not have done otherwise than to break protocols in the pursuit of his daughter's safety. His choice was determnined *and* compelled, in a way that his decision to have a nice cup of coffee is not.

Now, that commonsense approach comes up against both the precognitive determinist perspective, in which compulsion is irrelevant, or rather just one of the predictable, non-stochastic factors affecting an equally non-stochastic action seen in advacne by the precognitive, and for that matter the quantum perspective, that sees causality break down at a quantum level. However, the quantum approach is in moral terms at least pretty irrelevant. If Keifer is holding a bad guy at gunpoint and suddenly another bad guy appears from thin air and tackles him, causing the gun to go off and perforate bads guy the first, then we can hold Keifer responsible for pointing a gun with the safety catch off at another person, we can hold him responsible possibly for not waiting for backup, who might have seen the man emerging from the hidden trapdoor, or for not anticipating that a man might suddenly appear out of thin air, et cetera, but shooting the man was not his personal choice and he is not in a sense to be blamed for the actual action of bullet on human flesh.

Question being, can he be held responsible for anything else, if his actions are determined by previous actions in his past and the actions of elements upon him at that moment? In what sense can he be held responsible, if somewhere in a tenement block in New York somebody successfully predicted that he was goign to shoot bad guy number one? Is there a part of us that can originate action independent of previous circumstance and current environment?
 
 
Smoothly
09:23 / 13.02.03
Lurid - I think the key to your question about running dogs over is suppose you were given the same situation again. Suppose you were given exactly the same situation again, do you think you could possibly do anything other than swerve? Or to use the pool table example again: You make a pot by striking the ball in a particular position at a particular angle, with a specific amount of pace and spin. Is it possible that given exactly those conditions again, the ball would fail to sink? Could it do otherwise?
I would be interested to know if anyone thinks that the balls in a game of pool are free. If not, in what ways the actions of people different from the actions of pool balls.
Someone in my office just offered to make me a cup of tea or coffee. It seemed the choice was mine and a free one. I chose tea. Why did I choose tea? Well, I like tea; my family have always been big tea drinkers and I got exposed to it and a subsequent taste for it at a young age. I quite like coffee too, but it makes my breath smell grim and I don't like that - I reckon other people don't like that - and besides, the tea at work is nice and the coffee's pretty rank. So I chose tea, not feeling perverse enough to ask for coffee against my better judgement.
When I look at it like this my decision seems less free. I had a limited number of choices - tea, coffee or nothing at all. My thirst (which I did not will freely) dictated tea or coffee. The fact that I like tea more than coffee (again, a preference I did not will freely) dictates that tea is the beverage I'd rather drink. The lack of any other factors to over-rule these ones dictate that I say 'Tea, thanks'.
The subsequent caffeine in my blood-stream (among other things) dictated that I would spill all this bollocks out on Barbelith.
Of course the factors which dictate our 'decisions' are enormously complex, but is there any reason to think they're not fundementally like the tea/coffee decision above?

It seems to me that for an action to be free in the sense we like to imagine it must be originated by me. I'm no scientist but I guess that for Big Bang believers the Big Bang was an original cause - uncaused by anything else. Is it equally possible that people could generate similar (if smaller and more mundane) initial causes?
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply