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* Words create reality?

 
  

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Tits win
19:21 / 12.12.01
How is reality created through words?
Eh?
Um?
Any ideas?
Who says what?
 
 
Tits win
19:22 / 12.12.01
Binary system?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:37 / 12.12.01
Orqwith?
 
 
NotBlue
20:15 / 12.12.01
Apparently there is a lot of corporate research on the way people use language to talk about their jobs define their experience.

NLP also, but a bit pissed for logical thought right now.
 
 
sleazenation
20:38 / 12.12.01
its the old how do you describe somethoing without language (and by language we are also talking about the syntax of images) question the simple answer is that language is the foundation of reality- (see 1984)
 
 
iconoplast
03:16 / 13.12.01
Two quotes:

1. Language is the house of being.

(I once had a T-Shirt that said that. Lost the shirt, but I still think it sounds cool.)

2. Reality is that which, when you ignore it, doesnt go away.

I think those two quotes are both pretty right on. And so I think that, no - words don't create reality. What they do is shape the way we experience reality.

I'm not going to say that there is no objective reality, that there is nothing but my experience. But, on the other hand, if there is, I have no idea what it looks like. All I know is what I experience, and everything I experience hits me only after it runs through the coin-sorting machine of language.

Just in terms of, like, putting my experiences in order - figuring out which successions of images are due to my movement and which are due to objects moving - sorting perceptions into a narrative, creating an identity for myself out of all this disjointed crap - words are the fundamental units of experience, you know?

I guess it's unfair to say "Words don't create reality." because what I'm really doing is nit-picking and saying, "Sure, MY experience is built out of words. But I'm gonna be a good philosophy studentand quibble over terminology and say that Reality is different from my experience, without saying why." 'cause I don't know why. I just sort of take it for granted that stuff exists independent of me and my perceptions.

That, or there's some twisted sadist of a blind, jealous lunatic demon deceiving me.
 
 
Solaris
07:05 / 13.12.01
Two other probable misquotes: 'A Man's mind is it's own place, and can make a hell of heaven, and a heaven out of hell': Milton,

...and something about 'Mind forged manacles' by Blake.
 
 
ephemerat
07:39 / 13.12.01
'In every voice, in every ban,
The mind-forged manacles I hear.'


It's from 'London'.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
08:04 / 13.12.01
And London is a political poem with no relevance to words creating reality whatsoever. Oh, and the misquote form Milton sounds like Satan's speech at the first assembly after the fall, where the point is that he's lying, or deceiving himself, to inspire the other demons.

No time now, but notes to me for later. Logos and nous- Plato and writing - Derrida and arche-writing, and the world with no word for tables.
 
 
—| x |—
08:18 / 13.12.01
Since it's Siddhartha night tonight:

Words create the false reality that exists as the individual's interpretation of the interdependent co-arising: words cut out the differentiated objects and wrap them in a guise of individuality.

The removal of all words (and thus, of concepts) allows the individual to become more than human, non-human, and remain human while not affirming or denying any of this or that, while coming to see the true dharma which is emptiness. It is immediate experience of the undifferentiated.

To answer your question in the title of this post:

It is not yes and it is not no.

Pleasantries,
222 + 333 = 0 (mod 5).
 
 
Solaris
08:28 / 13.12.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Warm and Toasty Huggles:
[QB]And London is a political poem with no relevance to words creating reality whatsoever.
QB]


Read it again, catty Haus.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
08:48 / 13.12.01
You know, sometimes a huggle just doesn't seem enough. Like someone who, having previously mustered "something about 'mind-forged manacles' in Blake" (which possibly passes for erudition when you're in the heart of a sun), now suggests that I re-read the poem, "London", that he was unable to name or quote beyond three words.

Oh, and it's "mind-forg'd" by the way, not "mind-forged". There's an image-mapped reproduction of the original engraving here.
 
 
Solaris
08:48 / 13.12.01
Oooh, tetchy. Re-read it, carefully, and think about the social and spiritual implications of the phrase 'mind forged/'d/whatever manacles'. Blake was never purely political, and where exactly does 'politics' end and 'psychology' begin, one wonders? And yes, it is hot in here, so apologies for brevity of postings.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:48 / 13.12.01
Perhaps I'm being obtuse, but I still don't see what the phrase 'mind-forg'd manacles' has to do with words creating reality. Mind creating reality, maybe, but not words or discourse.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
08:48 / 13.12.01
Yes. It is a political poem. As I said. Not a *purely* political poem. And has nothing to do with words creating reality. Possibly if they were "word-forg'd manacles", with the next stanza explaining:

And that is not a metaphor,
They're made of words, they really are,
Which makes them even better for
Solaris, the poetic star.

Nor, incidentally does psychology. And if you would like to explain how "social implications" lie outside "political writi-"

Oh, fuck it. We're not going to get anything out of this except that blend of ignorance and arrogance that characterises so *much* discussion on Barbelith. As I said, if you had known the title or more than three words of the poem, I might have more time for your lucid and clear-sighted analysis.

[ 13-12-2001: Message edited by: The Haus of a sudden chill ]
 
 
Sax
08:48 / 13.12.01
The words "I love you" can turn fantasies into realities.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
08:48 / 13.12.01
Awwwww.....I find myself drifitng once again towards the world of huggles and pink plush ponies...
 
 
Sax
08:48 / 13.12.01
It was nice, wasn't it?
 
 
Solaris
10:06 / 13.12.01
I LOVE YOU, Haus. Well, if you were a girl I would. There's my mind, breaking free of it's manacles, creating words and affecting reality. But not very much.
 
 
Cavatina
12:24 / 13.12.01
Originally osted by 08:

How is reality created through words? Binary system?

I'm not sure where to go with this. Are you wanting to talk about the body of French philosophical theory that has discredited the view that language *reflects* a pre-existing reality?

This stuff is very difficult to summarize briefly. And it's 1.50 am here. Haus has mentioned Derrida. But first there's Saussure to consider. According to Saussure, within a linguistic system the differential relations of the terms (the signifiers) are logically prior to, and determine, the identity of the terms (the signified). Thus meaning is wholly a function of oppositions.

Post-Saussurian textual theory is based on what is perceived as a remarkable split between the signifier and the signified. For Derrida (who was arguing against Husserl's reflection theory of consciousness), the 'movement of the signifier' blocks the possibility of interpretive closure. No term or text is the bearer of self-evident meaning. This meaning must be instituted through a further term or text, and the meaning of this in turn by a further term or text, in a process of infinite deferral he calls 'differance'. Derrida's position is one of the priority of *non-identity* - a source of his notion that there is nothing outside the text.

English philosophy utilizing Wittgenstein would argue that such sceptical philosophies of language rest at base on a false epistemology, one that would seek and inevitably fail to discover some logical correspondence between language and the world.

Another handle on how reality is constructed by our discourse rather than reflected by it is offered by Foucault in The Will to Knowledge when he considers, for example, how the sexuality of children was created by an eighteenth-century discourse.
 
 
Hush
12:29 / 13.12.01
I'd like to do this without reference to old people, and hope it helps.

Who we are is a narrative fiction. Our identity is a story we tell ourselves to bind, balance or reject from the whole range of input sensory data.

Much of this data is a word spun fiction. Things like Money, Love, Countries are extended fictions that are very much part of our world but not real. But we treat them as real.

Additionally the world seems full of real things but we never see them. Magma, Electricity, Oxygen. The existence of these is completely mediated by words.

The fundemental divisions of our lives; Monday from Tuesday, Homo from Hetero, Edibly from Horrible are created by narrative.

In this sense the world is made of words. But there is an external world of rocks, and gasses, but that ceases to exist when we die. This world was made by God who is my imaginary friend.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
12:37 / 13.12.01
Well, after a fashion Jawbone has summarised the idea of the world without a word for tables. In such a world, you don't have any tables. You may theoretically have things with a flat surface and gour legs that you can put things on, but wihtout a word for them you have no concept for them - you woudl have to explain them in terms of other things - stick it on that thing that looks like a stool but bigger and with more legs? Not likely.

So, no tables, until somebody invents the table, or more precisely the word for table. And to invent the table, you need to think of it. And to think of it, you need a name.

Cavatina has set down some very useful stuff - if I ever have the blood sugar, I will add my own poor understanding.

08 - Are you Ellis in disguise?
 
 
Hush
12:55 / 13.12.01
there once was a world without tables, then someone carved a copy of table mountain in wood.

A critic came a long and wanted to buy it, but it was too big for the gallery, so the maker made a smaller one. But the cricket had run away so they used it to put things on.

In fact I am fairly clear that tables exist, and know the word for it. If I didn't I'd make it up. How do you know that England exists?

Actually the boundaries of what is a table and what you can put on it are determined by language channelled conventions. (feet, shoes, dairy produce, peoples arses). What is the difference between a table and an altar?
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
13:01 / 13.12.01
Plato. The Republic. Knives and Chisels. Or is it Thales? No, Republic, I think.
 
 
Hush
13:07 / 13.12.01
quote: you would have to explain them in terms of other things ..

That would be the German Language I think. In which for example a stapler is an 'Automatichenheftepistol'
 
 
grant
13:16 / 13.12.01
"Words mean THINGS." -- Rush Limbaugh
 
 
Jackie Susann
22:41 / 13.12.01
Could anybody explain how the claim that 'there would be no tables in a world without a word for tables' is anything but tautological and/or wrong?

There are stupid plastic things on the end of shoelaces despite my lack of a word for them. Ye gods! Words don't create reality in any substantive sense, they don't even mediate our relationship to it in the strong sense some of you imply.

I.e., I don't think you can really say that Foucault argues that words created the sexuality of children in the 18th century. First, words aren't the same as discourse; second, all discourse creates is a discursive category, 'the sexuality of children', without its own material force (i.e., it's force is social rather than epistemo-ontological, sorry to crap on like this, really). Children were fucking long before, and/or during.

My ride is here, I will argue more later.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
22:48 / 13.12.01
Well, you hagve presumably never needed a word for the little plastic things at the end of laces. Posssibly your life rarely involves the need to make reference to them.

But nonetheless somebody more intimately connected with laces has needed at various times a word to refer to those things, which were named as part of the process of creation. It's "aglets", by the way.
 
 
Sharkgrin
00:19 / 14.12.01
Cut and paste "Firmanent"
Create folders and rename "Fiat Lux" and "Darkness"
Copy and paste "Lux" seven times.
Open Lux (7) and create subfolders "garden" and "tree of fruit of knowledge of good and evil".
Take a rest, smoke a cigarette, and download self-replicating virus

The Hebrew scholars thought the power of God's word was the creative force for the world as they knew it (Genesis 1).
Neale Donal Walsh wrote a trilogy called 'Conversations with God', where he chats up everything on his mind with God, and God talks back, profanity, dirty jokes, and all (God seems a lot more open-minded and humorous than I ever tried to be).

The crux of the first book, as Walsh writes, was that our thoughts and words carry powerful spiritual impact, and as mass, collective prayers picks-up subscribers, the more those prayers alter reality, whether the emergence of messiahs, low-cost beer, or even fasicts with small tiny moustaches.
I beleive it's worth a read: it changed the value I placed on prayers and on the negativeness I throw into the world.
It also told me that the Big Man was a pretty humorous guy.
<prayers for Halle Berry to leave a message on the answer machine>

[ 14-12-2001: Message edited by: Sharkgrin ]
 
 
deb
01:20 / 14.12.01
the word is not the thing
 
 
grant
01:41 / 14.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Dread Pirate Crunchy:
Could anybody explain how the claim that 'there would be no tables in a world without a word for tables' is anything but tautological and/or wrong?


Thought game: There would be no angels in a world without a word for angels.

There would be no money in a world without a word for money.

>>>>>

I think it has more to do with the way we view reality in a process/networky sort of way than in describing physical objects.
Associations of words ("sodomite" vs "queer") will create different reality-tunnels, maybe (evildoer vs. rebel). Not the specific words, but the invisible weight behind them.
 
 
Hush
06:40 / 14.12.01
This is getting nicely messy.

I love the idea of God's word creating the universe out of nothing. I'm not sure if we live in an 'abracadabra' universe.

What I am absolutely sure of is this; there are shedloads of things that are completely dependent on our believe in them to exist;

Many examples already given (days, countries, money, love). These things are entirely imaginary, and entirely central to our existence. We can only believe in them and manipulate them by using language.

What is engaging but dull is this awfully literal stuff about tables, and shoelaces. There is a functional link between a sound and a set of material objects. But this is not a direct one to one relationship, there is a psychological dimension.

I asked what is the difference between a table and an altar. At an object level there is none, a table can be an altar; but the way we deal with them is usually very different and the difference is purely in the mind of the speaker, and communicatd by use of a word.

I think we are often very blind to how much of our lives are just words, and often genuinely believe that countries and money are real rather than culture bound ideas. It is quite possible to imagine a language without these concepts being completely functional.

The really interesting question is 'how much of our identities are real?' and 'how does a pre linguistic human percieve itself'.
 
 
Cavatina
10:21 / 14.12.01
Crunchy, my aim was simply to describe very, very briefly, and more or less impartially, a few approaches to the question of the relationship of language/discourse to reality. I think that you have misconstrued my post, particularly my last sentence:

Another handle on how reality is constructed by our discourse rather than reflected by it is offered by Foucault in The Will To Knowledge when he considers, for example, how the sexuality of children was created by an eighteenth-century discourse. [/QUOTE]


The epistemological status of scientific discourse is to produce a specific 'truth'. Foucault speaks of the procedures, the scientia sexualis which produced 'the truth of sex':

'"Sexuality": the correlative of that slowly developed discursive practice which constitutes the scientia sexualis. The essential features of this sexuality are not the expression of a representation that is more or less distorted by ideology, or a misunderstanding caused by taboos; they correspond to the functional requirement of a discourse that must produce its truth. Situated at the point of intersection of a technique of confession and a scientific discursivity, where certain major mechanisms had to be found for adapting them to one another ... sexuality was defined as being "by nature": a domain susceptible to pathological processes, and hence one calling for therapeutic or normalizing interventions; a field of meanings to decipher; the site of processes concealed by specific mechanisms; a focus of indefinite causal relations; and an obscure speech (parole) that had to be ferreted out and listened to.'

So, for Foucault, things are not 'just the way they are'. They are *made* the way they are by regulatory social norms and practices, institutions and discourses. Children may well have been masturbating for centuries. But the sex of children and adolescents was not taken into account as something existing, something to be conceptualized, until the eighteenth century when 'the pedagogical institution ... multiplied forms of discourse on the subject; ... established various points of implantation for sex'.

But this is not to say that Foucault is suggesting that there is nothing that is non-discursive. He is not denying that there is a material reality which pre-exists humans. Nor is he denying the materiality of events and experience. What he *is* saying is that the only way we can apprehend reality is through discourse and discursive structures. In his view we categorise and interpret experience and events according to the discursive structures available to us, endowing these structures with a normality and a solidity that we often cannot think outside of.
 
 
cusm
18:22 / 14.12.01
There are two realities we interact with. There is the objective physical reality of the world we are within, and there is our understanding of that world, which we develop within ourselves. Our understanding of the world is a virtual copy if the external world, created within our minds. It is a map. It is also a very good map, as we are capible of mistaking that map for the external world at times. We are awfully good map makers, and the map is a viable reality we can interact with of its own. This map, is made our of words.

It is not, however, the physical world. The confusion in this discussion is in mistaking the map for the territory.

Words do create reality: the reality within. the reality without, however, still exists. It just needs words to identify it so it can exist within, even if those words are just "those little plastic thingies on the ends of my shoelaces".
 
 
Gek
20:13 / 14.12.01
quote:How is reality created through words?
Eh?
Um?
Any ideas?
Who says what?

Logoplasm. Not available in stores.
The universe,the muti-verse.Grimoires. Spelling.History.
I have theories buddy.
But don't trust me, im a crackpot.

[ 14-12-2001: Message edited by: City-zen Rex ]
 
  

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