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De-individuation online

 
 
slinkyvagabond
11:18 / 31.01.03
Hey, still riding high on my current obsession...Anyone wanna talk (openly, very openly) about the effects of de-indiviuation on conversations that take place in fora such as this one? Why am I so probing, why do we get *unnaturally* aggressive or sexual, why do we tell complete strangers our life stories - in fact, why do I enjoy telling complete strangers my life story online? Is it just me?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
11:23 / 31.01.03
Well, not having much luck looking for a dictionary definition of 'de-individuation'.

I guess the simple answer is that I can call you an idiot and you can't do much but sit there and fume. Certainly most trolls that one encounters on-line act as they do because of the small risk of any comeback.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:10 / 31.01.03
I don't know what "de-individuation" is either. Neither do I think that there is a trend to get "*unnaturally* aggressive or sexual" (whatever that means) nor to "tell complete strangers our life stories". Perhaps you feel that, slinkyvagabond?

In which case, perhaps you could develop your point a little more.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:12 / 31.01.03
Well, quite. I was about to post in the "liberties and taking liberties", but this is interesting in itself. The Internet is to a very great extent anonymous (perhaps rather less than people often believe) - see my earlier stuff on Sanford Lewin in your other thread. The Internet has also been passed from one group with limited understanding of social cause and effect (programmers, then academics) onto another (teenagers) without there being very much of a handover.

So, the apparent absence of consequences among groups with a limited comprehension of consequences anyway is a fairly major element. Julian Dibbell, in "My Tiny Life", looks at one of the early examples of "cyberrape", on LamdaMOO. There's a relevant chapter here. This actually covers some of the same ground as some of our "rehabilitated" trolls, who expressed physically and/or sexually aggressive comments towards those they felt were restricting their freedom of expression (innercircle took an interesting step on freedom of expression, incidentally, as he invoked both copyright laws and article 19 of the UN Declaration on Human Rights, albeit in both cases without any real understanding of what they actually were, thus trying to feed a big chunk of the "real" world into the synthetic environment of an Internet bulletin board). At the moment, in the "Mark Millar from another persepective" thread here, we can see a good example of the "sex and violence" riposte:

unless you are haus. in which case I give you the power to go and hurt yourself. and i will never take it away.

i mean, what?
huh? are you calling me to arms?
trying to come to terms with being attracted to me?
.

This is a pretty standard go at physicalising the narrative, which relies on its effect, I suspect, on a form of transgressiveness - the involvement of generally irrelevant or more precisely excluded elements. The term "voodoo doll" in the context of the LambdaMOO rape is interesting here - to do this you pretty much have to imagine a scenario in which you have some control over the other party's physciality or sexuality, or in this case both.

And why is physicalising the narrative important? Because disindividuation (although actually, I think you mean "anonymity" or something here, S. - in some ways, people in these environments are very sharply indivuated) relies on boundaries and barriers. To presuppose a connection to the physical implies that the character in the BBS can be tied firmly to the individual in the chair, and thus to that individual in every other walk of life. thus. That's not so much reindividuation as merging - a form of semiological persona voodoo?

By the same token, when Knodger was at the height of his trolliness, the unprecedented step was taken by an individual of tracking him through a few of his pronouncements and revealing first his activity on other bulletin boards, and finally his name and general geographical location, in an attempt to remind him that the illusion of consequence-free action and the disjunct of meatspace and cyberspace was in fact precisely that: an illusion. He subsequently complained, whether correctly, incorrectly, or mendaciously we may never know, that his mother had received nuisance calls from Barbeloids. Again, it's an attempt to create a nexus between action and consequence, with a hierarchical pattern between physical and online interaction tied through the idea that the "knot" - the point at which all the threads pass, has an official existence, and that official existence is subject to consequences in a way that a fictionsuit or email address is not.

The adversarial model is also possibly culturally guided by the increasing popularity of online shoot-em-ups, rather than the collaborative model of the MUD, but I don't really know enough about that to push it for the moment. One thing I would suggest would be necessary for this one might be a look at how gender functions in fora, but that's something that might develop....
 
 
Char Aina
00:13 / 01.02.03
i would have thought that it was less to do with the loss of consequence(sure, i think thats a part of it) and more to do with the human condition. as elfayed puts it in the early days of the invisibles, people will say anything to sound clever and interesting.

isnt the internet just an extension of that power, the power to prove you are the strongest memeplex?
 
 
NewAndrew
05:52 / 01.02.03
I've moderated online communities for a variety of specific groups with high levels of instant identification (beagle-lovers, gays and lesbians, recovering alcoholics, clinical anti-socials). I find the de-individuation or disindividuation or anonymity -- let's call it what it is -- the fortress of distance -- to be a life-enhancing experience for a lot of people. Unfortunately, trolls, as I've covered in an article called "How American Message Boards Encourage Violent Stupidity," fit the mold already pointed out: expression without consequence. The opposite end of the spectrum, however, is the lonely girl or boy, man or woman, stuck on the Isle of Man or in Iowa who has little social recourse, for whatever reason, but that found online. I think this leads to an unintended aggressiveness (typing in all caps when s/he thinks no one is "listening," getting outrageous with language, or over the top with humor, or, as slinkyvagabond alludes, revealing more information than many people want to read) that is tempered, quite often, by a face-to-face meeting.

In the summer of 1997, I organized a group of board moderators for a meeting in Paris. Moderators came from Denmark, Australia, America, Mexico, Fiji, New Zealand, Indonesia, Japan, England, and, yup, the Isle of Man. Within this group were some of the most provocative online communicators I have ever met, ranging from the hilariously lewd to the buttoned-up and implacably self-righteous. Bereft of our computers, we spent an entire day trying to figure out how to communicate with each other -- after 15 months of sweating together to build our online community. I can't think of a more humbling experience, and it's really informed the way I communicate with others online ever since.

I am sometimes too forward with complete strangers (online), humorously alluding to affection or non-sexual groping in a way that has drawn surprisingly vitriolic attacks from people I would have thought didn't care, or would welcome my cheekiness.

In my article, I recount, in agonizing detail, how, particularly on political boards, people who would NEVER voice their opinions in offline life are usually the most venal and violent online. They are also the ones who almost never understand a deserved or undeserved counter-attack, and bring all their insecurities to life in ASCII. I believe that for some trolls, blathering hostilely online is a pathological game. Or a lack of diplomacy or a complete insensitivity to the power of the written word is at work. For the truly mean, soul-shrivelled trolls, I can't vouch. Stupid trolls aside, the eloquence of some haters is frightening, creating a climate of doubt or discomfort that far exceeds its oral analog (since all inflection and emphasis relies more on the reader's perspective than the writer's).

Sexual aggression? By that, do you mean unbridled sexual openness, which is not necessarily a bad thing, although it may be inappropriate or ill-timed. Or do you mean attacks of a sexual nature?

Cheers!
 
 
Char Aina
10:43 / 01.02.03
what exactly constitutes cyber rape?
is it the equivalent of non consensual cyber sex, and a bit like a scary prank caller who keeps breathing heavily? that's all i could think it might mean, and i am interested to know what people consider the 'lines', as it were.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:14 / 01.02.03
A starting point might be whatever the other person considers 'violates' them.
 
 
Brigade du jour
20:59 / 01.02.03
Maybe cyber-rape could be defined beyond sexual terms. Maybe it's like an unwarranted violation of your emotions.

Friend of mine spends a lot of time on the Internet and had a pretty upsetting experience of that description, I'm afraid I don't want to put details, but suffice it to say someone pretended to be something they very much weren't, sucked my friend in (for want of a better expression) and then had them by the short-and-curlies, emotionally-speaking.

That's what I think of when I hear the phrase 'cyber-rape' anyway. It could be interpreted in all sorts of ways I suppose.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
15:50 / 02.02.03
I don't think 'cyber-rape' is a useful term, I don't think you can take the term 'rape' and just cross it over into the internet, if only because when Haus said things that Toksic found deeply offensive by your definition Haus commited a form of rape, which is ridiculous.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:30 / 02.02.03
Well, if you read the contents of the link I provided upstream, the "rape" in LambdaMOO was performed with a "voodoo doll", a piece of programming that allows one person online to post messages making it appear that another person was typing things in. So, agency was removed, and the "victim" persona was depicted as performing various sexual acts. A comparable example might be some of the more overtly sexual trolls of a recent case on Barbelith. Inappropriate sexual overtures migth be another case where the terminology might make sense - remember the Twart? He was a poster on Barbelith who sent a number of female-identifying ficsuits a poem about how he had crept into their bedrooms as they slept, to discover they were "dry inside". By contrast the sexual forthrightness or openness NewAndrew talks about (welcome to barbelith, BTW) is just generally rather dull.

The Sanford Lewin case is another persepctive on this, where Lewin's female net persona, Julie Graham, was a keen and at times rather forceful initiator of cybersex with her friends online, and when Lewin was eventually "outed", many of these friends felt betrayed or violated, as that sex had been perpetrated *under false pretences*. Others would say that this missed the point completely, and that Julie was, on the Internet, the "real" person and Lewin the enabling fiction. This may be something closer to what the FHTB is talkign about.

It's a permeable thing, I'd suggest, and also relevant here only insofar as "cyber-rape" might be on of the techniques that reembodies the subject; its seriousness is augmented by the creation of a link between the virtual and the physical, which is done in a different way by attempts to physicalise the narrative.

Another possible example here is back to one of our most tiresome trolls. As a result of some very serious problems with boundaries, he found out the address of somebody on the board and sent them a package. It was probably done in the sincere belief that the recipient would realise just how talented and great that troll actually was, and why they should have the run of Barbelith, but it read like stalking, and as an act that "crossed the line", the line being between (comparative) anonymity and security and the sudden involvement of personal, physical space and identity with the online project.
 
 
slinkyvagabond
12:14 / 03.02.03
I'm not trying to be wanky with the de-individuation buzz - it's just a theory like any other, I'm not saying I buy it wholesale, but I do find the idea interesting and your posts have given me a lot to think about.

Yes, I do think it's basically to do with anonymity and the psychological states that that incurs - I mean I read something about a study done on the effects that Halloween costumes have on the behaviour of children and its conclusion was that they act up more when masked. The idea of masquerade has quite a resonance, so I'm told, because it created (for a limited time) a classless space in which people of every status could mix. As to people online, I've personally never encountered hugely agressive personas but I have found that people are often quicker to open up online than in RL and by sexually "agressive", well it is just text in a way and I've never been alarmed (more typically I'm amused) by any online come-ons but I mean in everyday life people don't usually come up to you and say "Want 2 fuk?" as an opener (I live in hope....). Of course, that's what you get for going to a singles chatroom and online as in RL you meet different people with very different agendas.

The issue of cyber-rape: an interesting one. I'd like to come back to it but must now go and smoke.

Tanks a hundred
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:32 / 03.02.03
And similarly, quite a few actors tend to hold forth on the subject of submerging or hiding within the character, Peter Sellers is the example that immediately springs to mind.
 
 
NewAndrew
09:56 / 04.02.03
We're attaching a great deal of negative baggage to the anonymous aggressor. Are there circumstances where the absence of "RL" associations actually produce a more open, more honest, more communicative persona? The Peter Sellers reference immediately made me think -- I know not why -- of a study in which victims of Broca's aphasia (Wernicke's aphasia?) recovered complete understanding of the language abilities they had lost when playing make-believe, when assuming the identity of specific fantasy beings. I wonder how many people who couldn't carry on an intelligent conversation in "RL" are actually coming across online as regular joes, or, back to topic, regular jackasses. Am I allowed to say that here?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:27 / 04.02.03
"Jackasses"? No, you're not. You will be banned henceforth. We're a Christian BB, and we don't take kindly to pottymouths.

Oh yes.

Well, Julie Graham was a stout friend and a helpful person - she counselled lots of people, and was able using "her" background in psychiatry to identify others masquerading online for sinister purposes...otherwsie the Internet, and BBses, are a social *enabler* for all sorts of people, in all sorts of different ways. People often comment that people IRl at Barbemeets are *nicer* than they are online. But also some people are a lot more voluble online, and in some cases the expectation created online has probably not been lived up to. The difference between persona and person, if you like, has to be able to cut both ways.
 
 
slinkyvagabond
19:44 / 05.02.03
yes, more voluable is a good term for it. That's what I meant with my "life story" comment. In RL I would never presume that people were interested until we'd established a friendship over some time and I'm sure that people online have little interest too but the thing is that in this medium I just do not care as much about others' opinions of me. I don't mean that in a disparaging way at all, it's not from disrespect for others, if they don't wanna read something I've written, well....It's more the liberating side of the medium in that I don't feel constrained as I often do in my usual social milleu by whatever codes and sanctions are implicitly exercised. So, yes, NewAndrew, I guess there is scope for discussion of the positive side of anonymity. With regards to the "halloween kids do bad things with impunity" study, I found that while I was definitely emboldened by my Medusa costume last year (behaving somewhat in character, affecting an air of *danger*), this had the more positive outcomes of enabling me to talk to strangers (in a friendly way) and take a "night off" from the arduous business of being me - escapism, pure and simple (that phrase gives me the shudders now, ever since HearSay).

Yeah, people saying sexually explicit things to someone online is all very well if the one they're directed at has the wherewithal to reply. I guess if you weren't technically sophiscated enough to use software like the Voodoo doll Haus mentions you could also just use the strategy of deliberately picking newbies who appear to either be new to IRC/fora/online discussion entirely or just new to a certain forum and who mightn't want to kick up a fuss for fear of alienating regulars or whatever.
 
 
slinkyvagabond
20:01 / 05.02.03
oh yes, Haus, re-embodying! I really think you've hit on something there. I think you would have to look at that in the context of gender and that it could be especially applicable to sexually-agressive abuse from male-presenting users to female presenting. A lot of male hegemonic power is located in constantly devaluing the female body, in promoting difficult relationships between a woman's self and her body (and the bodies of other women) especially regarding those old bed-and-table mates, sex and food. If you remove the body (in a symbolic but also tangible sense) while online, then perhaps some of our less enlightened brothers find it disconcerting to have the seat of so much of their power taken away. Therefore, as you say, they feel the need to re-embody female presenting users in order to re-focus upon the female body, so that it doesn't escape the constant scrutiny it's subjected to in RL. I guess the way to get a user to remember her body in the most visceral way is to imagine and describe violence against it. Describing loving sexual acts so that she is aroused is another way, but considering that modes of eroticism are extremely personal and highly individual specific whereas most women have very similar concepts of sexual violence this option obviously works better between people who have a prior knowledge of each other, online or off, and whose actual intent is loving arousal. OK, I'm sorry, I've made a pig's ear of your point. I'm too tired for this but thank you very much.
 
 
slinkyvagabond
20:06 / 05.02.03
Sorry, it's me AGAIN.

NewAndrew: did you write your article for an online publication? If so, would you mind posting the address for it? Or PMing it to me. Also, by sexual agression, I meant both your definitions, I think. Sooo sleepy.
 
 
telyn
01:37 / 08.02.03
Ok, well all I know theoretically is from this article, but I'll do my best.

You could describe de-individuation as a loss of sense of self and a loss of control over one's self. I think you could also say that as a result, we lose a sense of responsiblity. The thing about large groups of people irl is that one individual has very little control over the group, but the group as a lot of control over them. The internet generally makes people consider what they want more, and gives them more control not less. Maybe less so in a chatroom, but on a bulletin board we have complete control over what we say. Ultimately we can turn off the computer and walk away, an option that is not possible in real life. Since the emphasis of 'de-individuation' is a lack of control and sense of self, I don't think it is very applicable to the interent.

I think it is more plausible that a sense of community can strongly affect our behaviour. If there is a community worthwhile to maintain then we are willing to take a bit of responsibility for the upkeep. I guess you could argue that this is another form of 'de-individuation' (individuals acting as a group not an entirely autonomous being) but that article (link above) described de-individuation as 'mindless' and those individuals as 'puppets'. I don't think that an internet community works in that way: people get caught up in crowds; internet chatrooms and communities are voluntary and require time and effort. Outside of an established community, autocracy is even more prevalent. Even in the most frivolous chatroom you have to think of something to say, and the responses of other people carry even less weight.

The only example I can think of de-individuation occuring online is a cult that recruits via the web, but that I would consider a special case.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:10 / 08.02.03
Harmony the point that you're making above, like any psych theory, depends very much on the individual and in this case on that person's relationship to the message board or whatever forum they happen to be contributing to. An OP on IRC is going to have a very different relationship to a chat channel then someone who has just stepped in for five minutes when they're bored- may I suggest that they will have a sense of responsibility to the forum. Situation in such a case is everything and so it goes for reality; if something completely out of order happens between two people within a group of friends the power balance shifts so that those two people gain a lot more power very quickly. I doubt that this happens as much online as power hierachies are presented clearly and, in my experience, there is often little debate over who's in charge. Even here where the moderators may be questioned (and regularly are) there is little question over Tom Coates' ability to play with the board in a way that everyone else can't.
 
  
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