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Are you experienced?

  
 
Matthew Fluxington
00:09 / 10.12.01
Do you consider yourself a person who has a lot of 'experience', whatever you may interpret that as being?

Do you think it is essential for a person to be 'experienced' in terms of life situations, sexual experiences, travel, drugs + drink, etc for them to have valid opinions, to be taken seriously, etc?

How much 'experience' do you think is necessary for someone to be a well-rounded and interesting person?
 
 
SMS
01:32 / 10.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Flux = Traffic Tiger:
Do you consider yourself a person who has a lot of 'experience', whatever you may interpret that as being?
no.

quote:Do you think it is essential for a person to be 'experienced' in terms of life situations, sexual experiences, travel, drugs + drink, etc for them to have valid opinions, to be taken seriously, etc?

Absolutely not. Experience helps, yes, but, sometimes the wisest words come from the mouth of a child.


quote:How much 'experience' do you think is necessary for someone to be a well-rounded and interesting person?

To be an interesting person, enough experience to understand and express thoughts in some language. To be well-rounded? Well, you could certianly have had more experience as a carpenter than anyone else in the world, and still not be very well-rounded. I don't have an opionion on this part of the question, just yet.

[ 02-19-2021: Message edited by: SMatthewStolte ]

[ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: SMatthewStolte ]
 
 
suds
13:35 / 10.12.01
i haven't taken any hard drugs, and i'd like to be taken as seriously when in a conversation as my friends who shoot heroin. i think i do.
having sexual experience is different for boys and girls (i know i am stating the obvious here, but what the fuck?): for boys yr more likely to feel better for the experience, whereas girls are more likely to be slut bashed for having more sexual experience. these are the sterotypes society wants us to conform to. i say fuck that. i really do.
the best experience anyone can get is by travelling. i usually get on a whole lot with people who have known displacement too, who have fallen asleep on one continent and awoken on another. people who don't seem to have a home country, just a home planet.
dig? i'll be back here later.
flux, yr the best best best and don't you forget it.
 
 
No star here laces
13:54 / 10.12.01
I think this thread is kinda interesting when related to some of the debates currently raging here.

A pretty standard retort in all heated debates, from the death penalty to heteronormative language to subliminal racism is "you haven't experienced it, so you can't possibly understand".

There's definitely an element of truth in this assertion: raw, visceral experience has a force and clarity that imagination cannot normally match. However it's also a hopelessly isolating and counterproductive tactic, and I'd like to propose the immediate cessation of its use.

But, experience. I was having a very interesting chat around this the other night. I said I didn't like giving too many of my inner thoughts away to other people because it's a bit scary finding out other people think the same way. But this got me thinking - we do all think pretty much the same thoughts. It's very rare to admit to something that's troubling you, or exciting you and not find out someone else thinks the same thing. Or how many times has a piece of music or book or film come out that duplicates an idea you'd had but never executed?

Which got me to thinking: it's not really our thoughts that make us individuals - thoughts are ten a penny, and pretty universal. It's our experiences at the minute level - exactly what things we've seen, conversations we've had, pain we've felt, injuries sustained. These are what count.

So I'd suggest that the least significant experiences are sexual and drug-related. If I take a drug (and I've tried pretty much all of 'em) and then talk to someone else about it afterwards, I usually find they've had a pretty similar experience on some level, unless you're talking about some of the more esoteric hallucinogens. Sex is trickier, but I'd suggest that as it's something pretty much everyone experiences at some point and that as so much of it is beyond conscious control, it's not as significant as we think.

I reckon particular trees you've seen, the way the first person you fancied smelled, the colour of the concrete in your parents' driveway - all these little weird details are what really make up a person.

But to answer the question: I think key things everybody should have done are as follows.

Do something manual for a living. For at least a couple of months - the combination of physical exertion and low pay is salutory.

Be in a fight.

Be really, really hungry.

Be really, really scared.

These are the things that remind you properly about being alive...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:20 / 10.12.01
I asked this question mostly because I've been getting the impression from some people on Barbelith that their experiences define them, and that some people's life experiences may in some way be less valid than others...

I have a horrible insecurity about this, on occasion I go through periods of feeling quite pathetic about my life, which feels like a series of non-experiences...and this compounded with the fact that I am a straight white male from a middle class family in the suburbs of America that those experiences are somehow invalid because of their 'normalcy' and those things being identified with what many consider their oppressor.

Also, I feel like I've avoided so many life experiences, and now I feel this very accute alienation because of it...alienation yielding yet more alienation, really.
 
 
No star here laces
14:27 / 10.12.01
I'm guessin also a dose of blues at trying to create something when you don't think your experiences are interesting to other people, and experiences are the only inspiration for art, huh?

Dunno, to me it seems all experience is equally valid and individual - just on different scales. Nobody has the same experiences as you, even a twin wouldn't. Just cos some people have big, flashy experiences doesn't necessarily make those experiences any more worthwhile. I'm sure we all know plenty of fuckers who did that "rich kids tour of the third world" ish inbetween school and university and didn't learn a damn thing from it.

On the other hand, Flux, you're kind of begging the question: "why are there some kind of experiences you've tried to avoid?"
 
 
bitchiekittie
14:44 / 10.12.01
Im experienced in a lot of ways, but in others Im a child (or an idiot, depending on how kind a mood you are in)

I know enough to make a living, get a job or make friends relatively easily, get along with my friends and family as well as strangers, and still manage to have a social life. I know enough to have raised an excellent kid, I know enough to avoid excessive conflict (except here, apparently) and unhappiness in my life. I know enough to adapt and make do. Ive gone hungry, have been angry, Ive hated, I have been in love, have been homeless, have had nothing and have had everthing, have been desperately depressed, and been really really happy

but I also know I have a lot to learn, and that my life has only just begun. I think people who are looking to figure out more and more are the most interesting, really
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:13 / 10.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Lyra Lovelaces:

On the other hand, Flux, you're kind of begging the question: "why are there some kind of experiences you've tried to avoid?"

This is hard to answer without getting too much into personal biography, which I'm trying not to do, as I want this thread to be about the ideas and questions and not my personal issues. But I guess I can basically say that I was a profoundly uptight person up until around the time I turned 19, and managed to avoid nearly all experiences most might normally associate with being a teenager, or a normal person in general. I just avoided everything, everything I could avoid, I did. Man, I nearly even avoided school: overall, my attendances records in junior high and high school cumulatively suggest that I missed over 40% of it all...

[ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: Flux = Traffic Tiger ]
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:26 / 10.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Flux = Traffic Tiger: Do you consider yourself a person who has a lot of 'experience', whatever you may interpret that as being? I've had a lot of experiences. I intend to have a lot more. Some of them were useful, some were memorable. Some were shaping.

Experiences of consequence...who's to say which are more important?

quoteo you think it is essential for a person to be 'experienced' in terms of life situations, sexual experiences, travel, drugs + drink, etc for them to have valid opinions, to be taken seriously, etc?Up to a point, sure. Although people do tend to develop an unncessary degree of certainty when they've climbed Indian mountains or been near a bomb when it went off. It means a lot to them so they tend to assume their opinions are worth more in general.

Often the reverse is true. ("You spent a year stoned? Gosh, yes, I want to hear you tell me about the Israel/Palestine question.")

Although they may have a point, who knows?

quote:How much 'experience' do you think is necessary for someone to be a well-rounded and interesting person?Just a bit more than a given individual has at a given moment.
 
 
Ganesh
15:38 / 10.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Flux = Traffic Tiger:
Do you consider yourself a person who has a lot of 'experience', whatever you may interpret that as being?

I think I have a lot of second-hand experience in that I've talked in some depth to hundreds (probably thousands now) of unhappy, frightened, depressed, deluded, manic, obsessional and just plain weird individuals. I've glimped a lot of hidden corners of people's lives, and I feel immensely priveleged.

First-hand, I don't feel that experienced, although it's probably fair to say I'm more personally knowledgeable in some areas than others. I've travelled quite a lot, for example, and I've known bereavement first-hand. I've slept with both men and women, and I've made an educated decision as to which I prefer. I've never really enjoyed my body in a physical/athletic sense, however, and I've barely dabbled with recreational drugs. Never even smoked. I'm aware of those areas as 'gaps'.

quoteo you think it is essential for a person to be 'experienced' in terms of life situations, sexual experiences, travel, drugs + drink, etc for them to have valid opinions, to be taken seriously, etc?

Not essential, no, but I think it lends authority to their opinion. I'm always aware, when I'm doing bereavement work, that people respond better to me if they're aware that I've been in the same position. Conversely, when I did Child & Family Psychiatry, I was acutely aware that I had precious little experience to draw upon when advising parents on the best ways to manage their kids' behaviour - all textbook advice.

quote:How much 'experience' do you think is necessary for someone to be a well-rounded and interesting person?

Gawd. I dunno. Depends which circles you move in, I guess, and to whom you want to present yourself as "well-rounded and interesting". Not much of an answer, sorry.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:47 / 10.12.01
Interesting: so you consider 'second hand' experience to be almost as valid as first hand experience? Isn't that nearly the same as having read a lot of things and being very informed... it's not the same as actually *doing* things...it's a question of being a specator rather than an actor.
 
 
Ganesh
15:54 / 10.12.01
I don't believe I equated the two types of experience at all. I wouldn't make that generalisation.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:01 / 10.12.01
No, you weren't equating them, but you were speaking of second-hand experience in a way that suggested that they were indeed valuable and at times as useful as first hand experiences.... which I'm not arguing against.

I think I did misinterpret you a bit, but mostly cos I'm sleepy as I type this. My reading comp skills are lower than normal today...sorry, Ganesh.
 
 
Ganesh
16:06 / 10.12.01
I certainly wouldn't say second-hand experience was as immediate as first-hand - but in situations where it's unlikely that one will undergo the process oneself (post-natal psychosis, say), talking to lots and lots and lots of people about it seems the next best thing. As close as I'll get, anyway.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
17:06 / 10.12.01
quote: suds said i haven't taken any hard drugs, and i'd like to be taken as seriously when in a conversation as my friends who shoot heroin.


and

quote:Nick said
Often the reverse is true. ("You spent a year stoned? Gosh, yes, I want to hear you tell me about the Israel/Palestine question.")


When I think of experience as creating valid opinions it’s not in the sense of:
‘gee you’ve experienced all sorts of drugs now tell me about something completely unrelated to your experience’ but it is in the sense of:
‘you’ve actually performed open heart surgery. Well then I’d rather hear your opinion on what that’s like than this guy over here who’s only read about it in a book.’

Almost across the board experiencing events, things, etc. have altered my previous opinions about them. Somtimes just a fine tuning and sometimes a complete turnaround.

Even in the realm of theories and mental exercises. If I want to know about literary theory I would rather have a discussion with someone who has experienced studying the subject than someone who is just pulling stuff out of their ass.
 
 
belbin
19:15 / 10.12.01
Lothar> Well, there's two strands running thru this thread aren't there:
1. Specific: Do you need to have experience of something to comment on it meaningfully?
2. General: Is there a set of experiences that an individual should have to become a 'well-rounded' person?

Answer to 1: Well, yeah but it depends what you're talking about doesn't it? If you want advice from someone on something technical then you generally go to an expert. However, if we're talking social intercourse here: some experiences are more common than others. For instance, performing open-heart surgery is a comparatively rare experience. Experiencing love or grief - or a medical condition and its treatment - are far more common. I think as a rough rule, dialogue is possible when both parties have some experience to draw on. Otherwise, it's either a monologue ("so, you're an open-heart surgeon - how interesting, tell me more...?") or specious pub-talk bullshit ("open-heart surgery - piece of piss, mate").

Now question 2 is actually more interesting:
...and I don't have an answer. I'm reluctant to endorse some kind of revolting CV checklist ("trip to Nepal" - check, "BSc Comp Sci" - check, "3 year crack habit" - check). I think some kind of interest in the world around is vital. Dull people are not those who haven't experienced the world - but those who refuse to engage with it. If your experience is limited to the same town, same job, same people then what you may lack in breadth, you gain in depth. Personally, I do find people that have put themselves thru a range of experiences to be more simultating company than those that haven't - but that may be because these people have a curiosity and an engagement with the world that's led them to do this shit in the first place.

Flux>

I'm not sure that helps. And from personal experice, I'd second Lyra's comment about questioning why you've avoided certain things - (see Arnold Bax quote)

Lyra> I like the idea of the minutiae of life being the foundation of personality ("nevermind whether you wanted to sleep with your mother - what colour was the wallpaper in the kitchen?"). May be they are - precisely because they can't be codified into life narratives like "love" or "grief" or whatever.

However, these Big Things still matter - and what's so scary about being like other people? This discussion is tending to emphasize what makes people different - however we're all quite alike - otherwise we'd never be able to communicate with each other.

You could also argue that it's how these common components of common experice are assembled that account for differences - (possibly something from memetics here, I dunno). We're modular, production line entities with mass customisable personalities - not hand-made originals.

[ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: belbin ]
 
 
belbin
19:38 / 10.12.01
Or to put it another:
There's the issue of authority here that needs to be confronted.

Flux> I don't want to be confrontational here, but do you have a fear of being confronted and told that you're opinions do not have the requisite paperwork to be accepted by someone? Has anybody been in that situation and if so, how did you react?

An example from personal experience here:
I work with management consultants (I'm not proud but it pays the rent). I am not a management consultant and when I suggest something they pull rank on me - "I will not listen to what you are saying because you have no experience of my work" - which is ironic because they go into firms in industries of which they might have no prior knowledge and advise there. Now this does have some validity but it's often used as "I need an excuse to ignore you". This is a professional rather than a social situation but often power comes from credibility/authority based on claims for experience. So you have to either concede the point or obtain credibility in different ways - "well, I've done this before with your mates" or "well, I haven't but my friend here has..."
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:48 / 10.12.01
quote:Originally posted by belbin:


Flux> I don't want to be confrontational here, but do you have a fear of being confronted and told that you're opinions do not have the requisite paperwork to be accepted by someone? Has anybody been in that situation and if so, how did you react?

I think that I've always had a fear of someone undermining my opinions or knowledge, that's pretty true. I think it's become a lot more accute since the experience of being involved in another web community for quite some time that was based on this macho up-onemanship, this predatory desire among a large number of people there to prove other people did not know what they were talking about, or were total fools, and having been on both sides of that. There were some really vicious motherfuckers over there, believe you me.
In day-to-day life, it's a bit less so, and especially lately, I've found that people generally go with anything I say and treat me like I'm some kind of expert or something, and it feels pretty bad actually, because I really do feel unqualified for most things. . Oh god, let's not even get into how bad I am with finding jobs...I just assume I'm unqualified for most anything. Same goes for simply being attracted to people: I filter soooo many people out just on the assumption of not being 'qualified'...it's really bad.

So yes, I have some major issues with this sort of thing.
 
 
iconoplast
19:51 / 10.12.01
I've done an inordinate number of random things, some amazing, some mundane, some totally fucking surreal. But I think the only thing that's been important about these experiences is the way they've impacted my sense of self.

Just because I've been in a lot of different environments, I feel I have a pretty good idea of where I stop and where my environment starts.

I mean... after I turned 17, drugs were no longer about "new experiences" any more than a couple of pints at the bar was. Drugs just became a social convention. So, if you haven't done them, I'm sure there's something else in your life that's taken their place - the default activity when you and your friends go out.

I dunno... the experiences I remember the most, that seem the most... worthwhile were the ones like Lyra brought up. The ones that really stood out against my normal experiences and let me see my limits clearly. Failures also stand out in memory, for a similar reason - they tell me where the lines are drawn.

[ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: iconoplast ]
 
 
Ganesh
20:00 / 10.12.01
A certain amount depends on how one processes one's experience, I think. An acquaintance of mine has done the most amazing things in terms of world travel (takes six months out to explore Vietnam, finds herself in a yacht with Prince William, etc., etc.) but somehow still manages to be crushingly dull.
 
 
SMS
23:41 / 10.12.01
Social situations tend to require people having experienced a variety of feelings. If you don't know what it's like to be happy, sad, angry, proud, jealous, etc. you're not going to be very useful giving advise when it concerns these things. With some of my friends, this covers the majority of our meaningful conversations. Other times, I think you need little more than the ability to think logically, and express yourself. Sometimes, you need the ability to think creatively.

I've given my friends advise on things that concerned sex, drugs, and art despite incredibly limited experience with all of them. (I was asked for advise) I have political opinions despite never having written a bill or passed a law.

I think that, if your opinions are invalidated by a lack of experience, it'll be fairly obvious. How should the surgery be conducted?

Here's a question. Not being highly experienced myself, are my opinions on this thread worth reading?
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
17:37 / 11.12.01
In terms of other people's experience compared to mine and opinion, if they no more than me I tend to listen and ask questions. Experience in issues that are being discussed I tend to respect, if they horribly disagree with mine and at the end of the discussion I'm not convinced by their argument then I'll stick to my guns rather than fold due to their greater experience. I am very wary of people use their experience to beat people over the heads with and tend to wonder why they feel the need to do so. I think it comes down to who you're speaking to.

Am I experienced? Not enough, not yet and I tend to beat myself up about it a bit as well, especially as far as travel goes. I do really tire of people who say, why don't you just do it? We did. Because they tend to think that financially everyone's able to just uproot like that. I tend to find that many of them had mummy and daddy's money behind them. That's a personal bugbear of mine however, sorry something of a tangent there. I just keep going after experiences, though I have a taste in specific experiences. I also have a list of things I want to do before I die.

As for opinions, I'm reminded of a Harlan Ellison quote:- "People shouldn't be entitled to an opinion, they should be entitled to an informed opinion." Or words to that effect.
 
 
grant
16:37 / 12.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:
A certain amount depends on how one processes one's experience, I think. An acquaintance of mine has done the most amazing things in terms of world travel (takes six months out to explore Vietnam, finds herself in a yacht with Prince William, etc., etc.) but somehow still manages to be crushingly dull.

Exactly. The interpretive process - the ability to see how this ancient temple relates to the church on the corner back home, how that noodle vendor equates/does not equate to a deli owner next to your office. You know, bringing the experience into context. Making the connections.

That's where it's at, maaan.
 
 
Testing site
15:17 / 14.12.01
Flux, you ask a most interesting question as I am going through my own personal revolution of sorts now in my mid twenties.
Before I decided on the things I wanted to go out and experience I had to figure out why I wanted to do those things. Mostly curiosity is the answer. A curiosity that is not quenched by other people telling me what it felt like, tasted like, or smelled like. I wanted those experiences.

Now, having experience does carry weight when giving your opinion about something however, take the death penalty. Person A had a sister that was murdered and feels that murderer should be put to death, but person B had a sister that was murdered and feels the murderer should NOT be killed.

Same experience different conclusions, based on even MORE experiences they have had. The issue is how willing is a person open to hearing another's opinions REGARDLESS of who they are. This is something I ALWAYS try to do. The reason why, is because I get to experience them, and empathizing with another human is the most important experience that is different no matter how many times you try it.
 
 
cusm
17:39 / 14.12.01
There are some things I have experienced, and thus understand from the experience. There are some things I have only read about, but understand from my study of them. There are some things I have learned from friends who have shared their experiences with me, and so I understand those experiences second hand from their description. Each of these approaches gives a different kind of understanding of the topic. However, understanding is understanding. If it is sufficient to be reliable and useful, it doesn't matter so much how you got it. Experience doesn't automaticly give understanding.

As for experience and well roundedness, I think the more different kinds of experiences (and things understood), the better equipped one is to handle new situations, and the more likely they are to be good for interesting conversation.

And lastly, just because someone isn't highly educated on a topic, doesn't necessarially mean their views on it are invalid. Sometimes, a fresh perspective can illuminate details a PHD would miss.
 
  
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