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Be careful with Chaos

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17:42 / 30.01.03

So today I was reminded of an experience I had several years ago during a very intense and powerful part of my life. (And I'll tell you why I was reminded of this further down...).

One evening myself and 2 friends - Alex and Adam - gathered at a pizza joint for a late lunch. Somehow it came about that we heartily toasted Chaos, raising our ale's in cheer. "To Chaos!" we said. That night I went to the city (SF) to Come-Unity, and the car I rode in was broken into. Sadly, I had just moved that day and in the car was a backpack containing many of my most personal belongings - magickal journals, tarot, head stash, and blown glass chalice, among other important tax documents. All gone for good. The same night Alex had his house broken into while he was away and several thousand dollars worth of musical equipment was stolen. I forget exactly what happened to Adam but I remember it was also a good bit of ill fortune.

So, last night (inspired by MrCoffeeBean's misthread on Chaos Spheres), I did a working on the Chaosphere. I minor invocation followed by a Thoth reading.
Well, this morning on my way to work I had 2 people trying to merge into me, a weaving Subaru almost hit me, and near work (the interchange of 17N & 280S, for you BAy Area folks) I rounded the blind bend of the interchange to head straight into a very recent accident. I hit my brakes and hazzards and in the rear view mirror I watched a double-long gravel truck slam on it's breaks behind me and fishtail out a good 45 degrees.

Thankfully we were all spared and the accident wasn't too bad, although 3 vehicles were involved and smashed to varying degrees. 1 person was injured. As a side note, I pulled into the parking garage and turned off my car at 11:11am. As if Chaos was saying, "Hehe, I was just playing. You're fine."

It was a good reminder that while the notion of Chaos is somewhat idealized and honored amongst Chaotes, it also has a very random and destructive aspect inherent to it's nature. So be careful invoking or working with Chaos directly as it may turn around and bite you.

18:02 / 30.01.03

[b]"Be careful with Chaos"[/b]

...because Chaos won't be careful with you.

09:34 / 31.01.03

Chaos is the most primal force available to the magician. If you don't have the training to handle it, don't try.

Start with Qabalah or something like that, learn the associations and the paths not just on paper, but in your life and within your self. above all, know your self.

Then you might be ready for chaos.

BTW, a significant proportion of magicians who use chaos (excluding wannabes) spend time in psychiatric institutions. Its a dangerous game if you don't treat it with respect.

Some people use magick as a tool box.
Some people use magick as a toy box.

09:45 / 31.01.03

BTW, a significant proportion of magicians who use chaos (excluding wannabes) spend time in psychiatric institutions.

What proof or evidence do you have for this assertion?

09:52 / 31.01.03

Have you ever seen what happens when two magicians who know what they're doing get into a feud and start throwing alters at 50 paces?

I remember one individual who before had been in sound mental health screaming "The ants! The ants! Help me! They're eating my eyes!" as he was carried off. He spent 15 years in a psychiatric institution.

I've been around and I've seen. I don't need proof or evidence when I have memories.

The Natural Way

09:55 / 31.01.03

Wicked. Wicked magic WAR!

Wicked.

10:09 / 31.01.03

Evy: As long as you're talking about personal experience I respect what you you have to say. What I was challenging you on was the assertion that a certain source of practice (in this case, invoking Chaos) will lead to being institutionalised.

Out of all the practioners I've met, I've not met one who had been institutionalised (as far as I know) though one or two might have been borderline. I do agree with what you're saying about developing balance but I do think that getting into these borderline states might be a valuable experience - providing you can come back to Earth afterward.

11:14 / 31.01.03

I'm protected!

trouser the trouserian

13:47 / 31.01.03

BTW, a significant proportion of magicians who use chaos (excluding wannabes) spend time in psychiatric institutions. Its a dangerous game if you don't treat it with respect.

In my own experience, having met a good few occultists who might well qualify for severe fruitcake-dom, only one or two have seem to come a cropper working with the chaos current. Most of the chaotes I've met seem to be fairly well-balanced people. Maybe I've just been hanging with the wrong crowd?

13:54 / 31.01.03

...or the right crowd, depending on how you look at it.

14:21 / 31.01.03

I think this thread is a bit of a semantic tangle, as the above usage of the term 'the chaos current' probably refers to chaos magic - that being a way of looking at magickal theory and practice originating in the early 80's, incorporating elements of chaos theory, Austin Osman Spare, NLP, and all the other aspects that have accrued around it since then.

I don't think this is something that is liable to drive you insane, on the contrary, it probably supplies you with a good range of tools for hanging onto your sanity which other systems lack.

This is distinct from working with 'Chaos' as a force. Different kettle of fish I reckon. The only thing in common is the word 'chaos', which in the former sense is derived from Chaos Theory, the scientific concept. If you're invoking wild, primal, chaotic forces into your life, then you shouldn't really be too surprised or offended if your life suddenly becomes more chaotic. This has got absolutely nothing to do with academic speculation over whether sorcery might work along a similar principle to the butterfly effect.

Problems may arise when Chaos magicians fail to spot this distinction and assume that, since they are 'Chaos' magicians, then invoking the forces of Chaos into their lives will bring only good and positive things. The term 'chaos' has recently been co-opted as a buzz word to describe re-iterating patterns in the universe. This a meaning which I think is connected to, but remains distinct from the other meaning of Chaos as 'all bloody hell breaking loose'. Common sense, surely?

trouser the trouserian

14:22 / 31.01.03

It'd be interesting to find out tho', if anyone has done any research on magical practitioners being sectioned, or having a 'psychiatric' history. It's probably not that uncommon.
This individual you mention who spent 15 years in a psychiatric institution - was this some years ago?

14:23 / 31.01.03

Evy: BTW, a significant proportion of magicians who use chaos (excluding wannabes) spend time in psychiatric institutions.

Mr Illuminatic: What proof or evidence do you have for this assertion?

There's an anthropology book called Persuasions of the Witch's Craft by T.Luhrmann where she claims that all people into magick have a higher-than-average risk of being institutionalised, for what that's worth. I've not noticed Chaotes being any madder than magickal types generally, and most magickal types strike me as neurotic and depressive rather than raging maniacs.

About this 'I read a book on Chaos magick and my house burned down' narrative: IMHO, 'chaos' has two meanings, one derived from kia, the ancient Greek word-concept, which had a sense of disorder and mayhem. Then there's 'chaos' as in flux, instability and permanent change, say as in the Taoist cosmology. If one understands Chaos in the latter sense, as a Bad Thing, and invokes it, then - funny this - but things may well get messy. Me on the other hand, I see Chaos Magick as being about a fairly Taoist worldview with notions of flux and change built in. Nothing nasty or dangerous about that, so long as one accepts change.

But then, my interpretation of Chaos Magick is obviously an eccentric one - I don't recognise Chaos as a specific energy at all. To me it's cosmorphological, if that's a proper word. (Well, now it is.)

trouser the trouserian

14:33 / 31.01.03

Gypsy

Good point, but for me invoking wild, primal, chaotic forces has always been part of my own approach to Chaos Magic. Of course one can only expect all kinds of weirdness to ensue, and not all of it good. Crowley's life being a prime example. But I feel that's probably valid for any kind of magical activity. You do stuff, your life gets weird. Whoever said magick was nice?

trouser the trouserian

14:44 / 31.01.03

'I read a book on Chaos magick and my house burned down'
LOL!
Come to think of it, I do recall a couple of acquaintances warning me off Cardinal Rites of Chaos because the pictures were 'demonic' and the group who published it would be able to 'leech my energy' if I looked at them for too long. But they were psychiatric nurses (and Qabalists).

15:29 / 31.01.03

Chaos gauntlets.

available in two sizes: wannabe and arrogant

To order click here

17:33 / 31.01.03

Some excellent points here. I agree with Gypsy that there are semantic issues. To clarify: I am not referring to Chaos Magic in general, nor do I feel that there is any inherent danger in working with this system - provided, as evy noted, that the practitionaer has a good background in general metaphysics and a good understanding of and relationship with their Self. I personally spent a good 10 years or so laying down a solid foundation of Kabbalah, Crowleyana, Hermetica, Egyptology, Taoism and Buddhism, as well as numerous engagements with psychedelic shamanism and the RAW Discordian current. Only then did I begin any real ritual work. AS a side note to my recent morning of Chaos - I managed to stay very calm throughout and simply watched it all unfold, breathing and breathing. I also not in retrospect that I didn't banish at the end of the ritual - Big Mistake.

What I am referring to and warning about is the invocation of Chaos as a primal force / deity - the archetype and the current. My experience is that it can be helpful if you're willing to put up with the manifestation of such a powerful and uncontrollable force. As noted the results can be injury, institutionalisation, or worse. Chaos wants to play, but Hir dance will create and destroy simultaneously so watch out.

19:35 / 31.01.03

The continued practise of any form of magick can find and widen the cracks in your sanity, even the slightest crack such as some relatively minor issue that you have repressed and not dealt with, can become like the hole in the damn that eventually results in the entire damn collapsing. Chaos magick is particularly good at making the damn collapse in an interesting way...

14:17 / 01.02.03

Mike, that last line is very ambiguous! R u still around here to expand on that?

Chris, I'll start a new thread on the subject of not banishing - it's caused a lot of controversy in groups I've been in, and by a nice synchronicity was discussed by Mr Illuminatic and myself last night. Also, apols if I came across as snarky in my previous post - I probably wasn't at my most constructively critical there.

23:13 / 01.02.03

Bill, no snarkiness noted by me.

I see Chaos Magick as being about a fairly Taoist worldview with notions of flux and change built in

I agree. My point is that the change and flux may often surprise us, not behaving as we excpect it should.

01:54 / 02.02.03

The continued practise of any form of magick can find and widen the cracks in your sanity, even the slightest crack such as some relatively minor issue that you have repressed and not dealt with, can become like the hole in the damn that eventually results in the entire damn collapsing. Chaos magick is particularly good at making the damn collapse in an interesting way...

I can't say I've really seen a lot of evidence in favor of this proposition. On what do you base this incredibly broad, unqualified and unsupported statement, Mike?

14:55 / 02.02.03

'Chaos', as I understand it, is not actually a state of complete disorder, but a halfway point between order and disorder. Chaos can degenerate into total disorder, but it can also up-level into highly complex ordered systems; which then, of course, become more chaotic and either degenerate into even greater disorder, or up-level even further into an even more complex and ordered system. We're the space between the Outer Church ('Total Control Only') and the Invisibles ('Burn all the churches, smash it all up...'), remember? The magic mirror/anti-mirror interface.

As to not messin' with chaos without a solid grounding in Crowleyana, Kabalism, etc, etc, I'm not sure you need that much of a grounding. I started out as a chaos magician with only a very sketchy education in Theoretical Wicca, and that doesn't seem to have affected me too badly. Sure, there've been hairy moments along the way, but, y'know, it goes with the territory.

So, after careful consideration, my expert answer to the questions raised in this thread is: 'Hmmm...It depends.'

09:20 / 03.02.03

The formless chaotic egg which was the birthplace of P'an Ku is an example of the idea of a primitive chaos, or featureless, undifferentiated universe. This is the most frequently found primordial stuff of the universe in creation myths. The Greeks referred to this initial formless state of the universe as chaos and this is the origin of the term.

extract from Creation Myths - Bernard Doyle

The Pelasgian Creation Myth

Adapted from Robert Graves’ The Greek Myths by Dr. James Luchte

In the beginning, Eurynome,

The Goddess of All Things,

Rose naked from Chaos.

She found nothing upon

Which to rest her feet, and thus,

She divided the sea from the sky.

She danced lonely upon

The waves of the sea.

She danced towards the South, and

The Wind set in motion behind her

Seemed something new and strange

With which to begin a work of creation.

Wheeling about, she caught hold of

This North wind, rubbed it between

Her hands, and behold!

The great serpent Ophion.

Eurynome danced to warm herself, wildly

And more wildly, until Ophion, enchanted,

Coiled about her divine limbs

Becoming one with her.

As she lay with the Ophion,

Eurynome was got with child.

Eurynome assumed the form of a dove,

Brooding upon the waves and with time,

She laid the Universal Egg.

At her bidding, Ophion coiled seven times

About this egg, until it hatched and split into two.

Out tumbled all things that exist, her children:

Sun, moon, planets, stars, Earth with her mountains

Rivers, trees, herbs, and all living creatures.

Eurynome and Ophion made their home upon

Mount Olympus where he vexed her by

Claiming to be the author of the Universe.

Forthwith, she bruised his head with her heel,

Kicked out his teeth, and banished him to the

Dark caves below the Earth.

Eurynome opened her gaze and her arms to her

Children, giving each its name which she read

Off its own singular power and being.

She named the sun, moon, planets, stars and

The Earth with her mountains and rivers, trees,

Herbs and living creatures.

She took joy in her creation, but soon found

Herself alone desiring the face, voice,

ear and warmth of another of her own.

Eurynome stood up and once again

Began to dance alone upon the waves.

14:45 / 03.02.03

I still think this argument revolves around how you define the inclusion of the word 'chaos' in 'chaos magick'. There's a distinction between looking at 'chaos' as a component in the operating system of magick, and approaching Chaos in an invocatory, semi-religious sense.

I think if you're aligning yourself with the latter, and you make an invocation to chaos and mad stuff happens, then you've had the required result. Whether or not this is useful or beneficial to you in any way is probably dependant on how you then frame and conceptualise your experiences.

As this thread itself has shown, 'Chaos' can be interpreted in a variety of different ways by different magickians. By its very nature it's unpredictable and difficult to define, which puts you on fairly loose ground if your working with it and expecting it to be one thing and not the other. Chances are you'll be surprised. We might as well be discussing how our workings with the God of Unpredictability turned out to be really unpredicatable.

Having an appreciation and understanding of the chaotic nature of the Universe and how it may apply to magick, does not automatically confer on you the ability to stand in the eye of the storm undaunted.
Or in other words, just because your hobby is fly-fishing it doesn't necessarily follow that you would then be considered fly in the hip hop sense.

15:03 / 03.02.03

Will - that rocks.

GL - very interesting point. To descend depths of severe nerdery (am I a "chaos nerd"?) I remember that Peter Caroll's Liber Null talks about Chaos in a more invocatory, ontological sense (if that's not a paradox)Quite different from what Chaos Magick has become (and that's not a criticism). A lot of the early Chaos stuff seems to dwell on Chaos as a force or entity, not surprising as it came out in the 80's when Chaos Science was a hot new concept and fractals lined all the latest rave flyers.

18:09 / 03.02.03

That's me in the middle.

18:30 / 03.02.03

As to not messin' with chaos without a solid grounding in Crowleyana, Kabalism, etc, etc,I'm not sure you need that much of a grounding.

True. My main point was that it is wise to undergo some sort of introspective/analytic period to really get in touch with who you are, what your true intentions and motivations may be before beginning to practice magick. It doesn't need to be through books and systems either. The shamanic approach present a very powerful path to understanding the Self (though this path can be dangerous as well).

Ultimately, anyone can attempt to embrace practical Magick. The results may differ wildly though depending on the fortitude and imagination of the individual.

I still think this argument revolves around how you define the inclusion of the word 'chaos' in 'chaos magick'.

To me Chaos Magick is a loose system which is highly personalized and fluid. The term "chaos" in this sense is only an identifier, differentitating the system from other magick's.

The term Chaos itself is of much higher order and is descriptive of a fundamental pattern of all levels of reality. In the pantheon that I work with, chaos could be regarded as the dance between Hadit and Nuit, wholly indifferent to human affairs yet eternally moving within the foundations of nature. It is the swimming of the fluids of the aether, as well as the flow of electromagnetic compulsion. Similarly there is the mathematical aspect of Chaos as a system of physics used to describe nonlinear dynamical systems. As velvetvandal noted, chaos is change and while this change may yield disorder, it is also prone to reorganizing into higher levels of organized complexity.

I believe the yin/yan symbol encapsulates the currents of Chaos (the Tao) very well.

21:16 / 03.02.03

22:10 / 03.02.03

Hail Eris, Baby!

All Hail Discordia!

trouser the trouserian

04:57 / 04.02.03

Chris
For me, the whole problem with this semantic stuff is that it's very easy to get into hierachies of difference (btw, I'm not saying that you or anyone here is necessarily doing this), like, on the one hand, there's 'chaos magic - the movie', and there's this other 'Chaos' of the "I invoked chaos and my hamster exploded" variety. An implication being of course, that the latter version is 'superior' to the former. What then tends to happen is some smart alec pops up and says, "aha, the real deal is Kha*s Majeek, which only me and my dog know about. And so on, ad infinitum. Just an observation.

Having said all that, your definition of Chaos is very similar to one Pete Carroll gives in Liber Null/Psychonaut:
The thing responsible for the origin and continued action of events is called Chaos by magicians. and he does equate it Tao (or 'God' for that matter).
For me, Chaos Magic encapsulates both the po-mo multiple perspectives diy approach and the hamster-blowing up stuff.

18:14 / 04.02.03

For me, Chaos Magic encapsulates both the po-mo multiple perspectives diy approach and the hamster-blowing up stuff.

Hehe. I love it! Hamsternomicon. PoMo Chao Manure - good for what ail's ya! (unless you're a hamster).

04:24 / 10.07.04

In my opinion, the essence of Chaos is possibility. By applying Will to this possibility, it can be manipulated to achieve the desired result. Tapping into the well of this potential can be dangerous, just as a speeding truck is dangerous without someone at the wheel. If you are willing to start the truck rolling, you must be prepared for the consequences if you are not willing or able to steer.

I'm not entirely certain how this analogy came to be constructed, but it seems to get my thoughts across appropriately.

Skeleton Camera

11:52 / 10.07.04

Vargr: If you are willing to start the truck rolling, you must be prepared for the consequences if you are not willing or able to steer.

Part of the discussion of Chaos as a force/godform/whatnot is whether there is a point after which you CAN'T steer. (I'm referring to chaos as the wildness/random/destructive-creative force here, not the Taoist parallel) Part of the nature of Chaos, at least as it manifests in our world, is that it is uncontrollable. Heck, that's practically the definition of it. What a chaos magician does is either trying to simply bring about the uncontrollable and let it do its own thing, or paradoxically try to control the uncontrollable. Neither one of these seems a BAD idea, necessarily; but also, look at the amount of chaos present in the various corners of the world, and look at how it's manifesting. Bloody, horrific stuff, to which the majority of us are opposed (say the Iraq war - prime chaos, haha, right there). Will this yield change and thus creation? Yes. After the destruction.

Shanghai Quasar

16:12 / 10.07.04

Chaos is a fundamentally human construct, innit? Something doesn't appear to make sense in the immediate context, or the context of events that have happened, and it is chalked up to chaos. And as a human...

Opposition to Chaos: the majority of people want peace and stability, yet it's the majority of people that are the catalyst of all that terrible mayhem in the world. The love of order props up the worst, most chaotic elements of humanity.

Not that loving chaos is the solution, since that causes just as much damage. Using the example given, I'll suggest that George Walker Bush is Chaos, destroying the Old Order where it lurks. He wants to be the New Order, but acknowledges that won't be possible until there is enough Chaos and the Old Order is too feeble to stop it. El Presidente and his cadre may not have sparked the flame, but they're the ones who've snatched up the torch.

So, is that worth a Hail Eris or what?

23:50 / 10.07.04

I think that what Mike means is that People who do Chaosmagick in the IOT way, ie are initiated into the IOT have a tendency to end up a bit loony.

IOT has initiations that are designed individualy for each person, but one thing they keep in commo is that they try to create a psychosis in the initiate.

Instance: initiate is claustrofobic. The initiations will involve him being in a setting that triggers his claustrophobia.

The scary thing is that in these initiations you seldom have qualified psychiatrists designing them and that can lead to strange things.

Chaosmagic the IOT way is not chaosmagic aka the liber null, Grant Morrison, internett sources etc way. fact.

Not everyone who joins the IOT gets fucked in their heads. But it´s easier to get whacky with iot chaos (and other such magics that try to push the consciousness over the border to quickly) than with:
I do sigillmagic but i use the indowdressing of brujeria based on the stuff i read about it."

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