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the personal is political

 
 
Disco is My Class War
02:36 / 08.12.01
Something Flux said in the thread about marriage/single and all that brou-haha struck me as a good way to fire off a thread. Flux said something like 'bringing politics into a frivolous, getting-to-know-you thread may not be appropriate.' (Apologies if I'm misquoting, Flux, don't have a window open and my computer is slow so I'll have to make to with paraphrasing.)

If this is so, what relationship between the personal and the political is appropriate? When is it okay and proper to bring critical language to a discussion, and if 'theory-bitching' language isn't appropriate, what language is?

More 'personally', does one's individual relationship between personal life and political convictions depend on who one is and how close one is to the 'centre' or the 'margins'? I'd really like people to respond personally to that question... because it's different for everyone, and I think there's a possibility of opening up a slightly less hostile space for talking about this.

So, maybe let me go first. It might already be obvious, but I think if I couldn't bring the political into personal life -- and vice versa -- in fact, if there was an easily distinguishable space of either politics or personality in my life, I'd probably haved offed myself a long time ago, or would be married in the country with a few kids, bored out of my head. The space of questioning and critical thinking which 'theory-bitching' language has made possible for me has revolutionised my life. I'm happier because of it. And theory bitching is a tool; it's way of fighting back but also of making connections you wouldn't normally expect between people and things and places, between sex and history, between bodies and architecture, between a smile across the room and global corporate culture.

There's more, but it can wait. Go on and argue with me.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
02:59 / 08.12.01
Well, what I meant is that in a thread which is the equivalent of small talk in an actual real life setting...the sort of conversation you would make with a total stranger, the sort of person who works a few cubicles away from you, a class mate, a person in line next to you at the shop, etc. It's a question of ettiquette...in regular life, it's best to play close to the vest and just be friendly rather than get into 'theory bitch' mode, as it were. Conversations like that are generally meant to meaningless, informational, relatively impersonal, polite and non-threatening. And there is no reason why they shouldn't be. It's just small talk.

However, I think theory bitchiness can be and should be perfectly normal in more developed relationships.
 
 
Little Mother
07:40 / 08.12.01
I have no really problem with thinking politically about..well most things really, I've been told I can't even help it anymore. However there is definately a case for moderation in how far we express such opinions since it can come across as no more than a bad case of smart-alecitis. I had to learn the hard way that not everyone solves the world's problems over a pint in the pub.
 
 
sleazenation
08:38 / 08.12.01
I have lots of things i want to say here but this is the sort of conversation i prefer having in person-- odd eh?

I think the artificial boundaries of small talk are quite interesting especially when examined. And people can learn az lot (not all of it nice) about their own perceptions and those of others from it.

Theory bitching (which doesn't really do it for me as a verb it must said) can be taken to extremes though- imagine a post structrialist/deconstructionalist who decides that being a floating signifier in a decentered universe where meaning is always defered, and since nothing has ultimate meaning he can just kill whoever he dislikes...
 
 
Dao Jones
12:39 / 08.12.01
Every action is political, or sociopolitical. Including the decision to deploy theory in a domestic setting. Can make very good theory points. Can kill a relationship or a conversation and make you impossible to be around.

'The personal is political' has been used as a justification for deeply unkind behaviour in my life. Not that it wasn't politically justifiable. It was just mean, nasty, and avoidable.

There are situations when you have to stop being an iteration of your own ideology and function as a person; acknowledge the 'safe zones' of your friends and colleagues. Otherwise you impose a kind of weird social terror on them - they never know when you may erupt and do some damage.

Emotionally speaking, it's cruel. We exist socially on a trust basis; we employ certain signals to reassure each other that we're playing the Sane Game. Bust that open too much, and you put strain on those who love you.

I still cringe when I read that phrase. After all these years, I'm ready to fight, and I'm dreading this discussion. Because someone I loved kept using it to decimate every aspect of my life, to the point where I doubted it all.

That's political too. Terror on a personal basis gets you nothing.
 
 
Naked Flame
13:20 / 08.12.01
The further from the 'norm' you happen to be, the more your person is politicised.

Example: I don't like eating animals. If there's any other way to get through the day I'll take it. I don't preach, and I don't insist that others follow my example. I have even been known to eat animal flesh when there's nothing else going. Plus, I wear a leather belt and sometimes leather shoes, made from real cow, and I'll eat fish reasonably happily cos I like the taste, it's good for me, and I've never really been friends with any fish.

So, I have no political stance on vegetarianism. In fact, I recognise that if we were all vegetarians, there'd probably be even fewer animals in our lives than there are.

However, I'm required to provide this information in any social context involving food, and nine times out of ten I will be required to defend a lifestyle choice that is actually not a choice, but second nature. Meat has never agreed with me, and after not eating it for so long, if I see a leg of something I can't help but see it as something that was part of a fellow mammal. It doesn't look like food, it looks like burnt flesh.

I guess that this is a long and rambling way of saying that the personal is the political, but that a personal choice is just that- not a political choice.

The personal is politicised when one makes non-normative choices. This then politicises ones awareness of those normative choices. That do ya?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:58 / 08.12.01
I think Dao has made some very good points.

I've always been of a mind to think that one who forces their political views into the context of any given conversation to be very obviously lacking in substance as an individual...the desire to so closely identify oneself with any pre-defined identity or political ideology tends to scream "lack of real individuality/identity crisis", or worse, "senseless follower/zealot".

It's also wise to be wary of those who would demonize their oppressors in a way that makes them no better, if not worse...
 
 
sumo
14:03 / 08.12.01
What’s the point then?

So you divorce your personal ideology from your inter-personal engagements. To what purpose?

This is not an idle question, and I’m certainly not asserting my own viewpoint – I’m merely describing a dilemma… I’ve recently been told by numerous (practically all) of my friends that I’m too "argumentative". Of course, up till that point I’ve not really felt myself to be arguing, but merely discussing something interesting. At that point, there’s much laughter and joviality, and lightness returns to the room – except for me, for although I’m smiling and accepting the good-natured back-slapping, I’m seething inside, because this "intellectual masturbation" is fucking important.

Except, of course, it’s not, not really, and my friendships are far more important anyway. So why am I struggling with these feelings of frustration?

I have to go get ready for a cocktail party now. I’m trying to fill my head with inanities.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:30 / 08.12.01
No, you don't divorce your politics from yr personal life...you've got to find a nice balance and show discretion in when you pull it out. If that means biting yr tongue on occasion so that you aren't always flying off the handle giving you the reputation of being an overzealous kook, that's for the better because it's usually preferable to have yr views taken seriously, right? If people think that yr argumentative when you're simply just trying to discuss things, maybe you should reconsider yr semantics, and think about how you speak. Maybe you don't realize that the language and tone of voice you've been using comes off as more combative than it maybe should...

[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: Flux = Traffic Tiger ]
 
 
sleazenation
15:14 / 08.12.01
An interesting side issue to the politicised peronal life- Have you ever had a serious sexual relationship with someone whose views were diametircally opposed to you?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:25 / 08.12.01
quote:Originally posted by sleazenation:
An interesting side issue to the politicised peronal life- Have you ever had a serious sexual relationship with someone whose views were diametircally opposed to you?


Wow, that should be its own thread.

Me, not as extreme as 'diametrically' would suggest, but I was in a relationship a number of years ago with a girl who's ideas on government, law, advertising, and how corporations run were certainly to the right of me...she was/is studying to be a corporate lawyer (like her parents and brother before her), which should explain a lot...
 
 
Dao Jones
15:25 / 08.12.01
quote:So you divorce your personal ideology from your inter-personal engagements. To what purpose? Wake up. There's no difference between the two. That's the whole point of the original claim, isn't it?

What it comes down to is choosing your battles and your moment. An elderly gentleman holds open a restaurant door for a young woman. Old-style chivalry, partiarchal in the truest sense, but well-meant. Accept the courtesy or object to the implied invokation of a societal mode of which you don't approve?

Weigh the costs. How is your political cause served by objecting? How much face will both of you lose in the engagement? And crucially, what other political/behvioural modes are established or strengthened by taking offense?

Will you be attacking the notion of 'live and let live'? Will you be setting ideology over human kindness (I'm very big on this. Sod the ideology, let's have the humanity.)

When you act, the manner of your action and its timing establishes new norms (or at least modes) which you will then have to live with. You can change your mind, of course, and that too becomes a mode others can deploy with you.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:43 / 08.12.01
So, "humanity", ie behaving in a particular fashion to people depending on how you perceive them, and thus moderating your behaviour according to a set of precepts, is not an ideology? Meep.
 
 
pantone 292
16:51 / 08.12.01
quote:The further from the 'norm' you happen to be, the more your person is politicised.
I'd like to add 'noticeably' to that sentence, i.e. after 'more', since we are all in this polis together - but marked differently such that privileged subjects tend not to notice themselves as such.
quote: Theory bitching (which doesn't really do it for me as a verb it must said) can be taken to extremes though- imagine a post structrialist/deconstructionalist who decides that being a floating signifier in a decentered universe where meaning is always defered, and since nothing has ultimate meaning he can just kill whoever he dislikes...
in defence of at least deconstruction someone acting it that way could not possiby have actually read any or understood it - especially in the last 15 years odd of the turn to ethics in deconstruction figured around the relation to the other...

I want to come back to this when i've had some food Rosa, and answer properly in the vein that you asked for...
...starting with saying that I'm really happy to hear that theory revolutionisd your life - yay, and yea, mine too. I love it, live it and ever since the accident of the dewey system lead me from radical feminism [eg. Mary Daly] to poststructuralist feminism [eg. Luce Irigaray] cant get enough of it - even when its difficulty makes me weep. And I dont think philosophers/ theorists necessarily write from a decision to be obscure but because trying to think the conditions of possibility of anything in what we call the world is damned difficult. Not least because those conditions are historically contingent, i.e. they change.

the relation of personal to political is also in a state of flux,not least when the politics of eg. sexuality are raised politically by people who take those politics personally. I had a really difficult instance earlier this year when a good friend of mine got married. she knew I held political objections to marriage as het institution yet not only asked me to go but wanted me to make a speech during the service. I did go but backed out of the speech - at first expressing in as gentle a way as possible that I didnt think I could contain my hostility and that it wouldnt be appropriate [also imagining that I would probably be the only queer dissenter there]. apparently I was too gentle in saying this, though I did use the word 'hostile', since she kept asking me to do it. and, you know, I was too cowardly to voice my dissent more forcefully and ended up just avoiding the issue, finally saying that, well, I was going to go and that in itself was a big deal for me. Going to the registry office ceremony was relatively ok since I could notionally hold the law responsible for the heteronormative performative production of gender not my friends. But the reception was really dire since my friends - who i had formerly encountered as the most queer-friendly people, to say the least, engaged in such social choices as man-woman-man seating plans, a rose bower where we were asked to line up according to gender hence producing a whole row of het couples, and a series of speeches in which the woman was constructed as the object of exchange between men in the most typical Levi-Straussian fashion, and marriage was constructed as the best kind of relationship. For me personally it was immensely difficult and remains a silent and unresolved issue.

[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: Bluestocking ]
 
 
bitchiekittie
09:55 / 09.12.01
I am an atheist, have been for over a decade. however, when I am invited to a wedding or a christening or some other church-related event I go. I sit and smile and play nice with everyone, I even bow my head when there is prayer. I do this out of respect, for others heartfelt beliefs, and out of love for those people

I dont feel bitterness or resentment that my personal beliefs werent taken into account when the event was planned - its not my event. I dont take it personally when its assumed that I will take part in these events, or that people may be offended if i dont participate in everything (I wont sing hymns, etc). I dont fly off the handle when its suggested I should have married my daughters father because he was just that (despite everything), and that its thought to be very important that she "have her fathers name".

I dont drink, smoke, and have never done drugs. it doesnt bother me that nearly everyone around me does, or that Im always offered all of the above, or that its deemed strange by some, or that some people dont believe me

I dont see it as being a martyr, I see it as getting along and trying to be as understanding as I expect others to be

I live, and I let other people live - I dont walk around with a giant chip on my shoulder and dare every passing wind to knock it

however, I do support the right of anyone to resist perceived oppression, ignorance or malice
 
 
Disco is My Class War
09:55 / 09.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Flux = Traffic Tiger:
Well, what I meant is that in a thread which is the equivalent of small talk in an actual real life setting...the sort of conversation you would make with a total stranger, the sort of person who works a few cubicles away from you, a class mate, a person in line next to you at the shop, etc. It's a question of ettiquette...in regular life, it's best to play close to the vest and just be friendly rather than get into 'theory bitch' mode, as it were. Conversations like that are generally meant to meaningless, informational, relatively impersonal, polite and non-threatening. And there is no reason why they shouldn't be. It's just small talk.


Oh, good. Plenty of grist.

Let's define what 'theory bitching' is, for a moment. Having had numerous arguments about the accessibility of language (on Barbelith and on real life), I am all for speaking tactically; that is, using language that's contingent on who one is speaking to and the context we are both in. But I think my conception of conjoining politics into personal conversation or language or social relationships has little to do with what people have demonised as 'theory bitching'. Actually I relish the chance to have 'normal' conversations with strangers; but I'd far rather ask them about what they think of the refugee crisis or the war or some current political issue (and no, that doesn't mean brow-beating) than have some compeltely fucking meaningless conversation which I will forget in ten seconds, going about my business unchallanged and without significant engagement.

What you're basically saying, Flux, is that people should not be disturbed or challenged in their social intercourse; that conversation between strangers is best left artificially meaningless and non-engaging. I find it unbelievable that you can claim this in the context of the original thread (which I might have thought was about making connections, as is the whole point of this place, rather than meaningles chitchat). Too, 'etiquette' might be best critiqued here as a system of social alienation. Apart from its useful tool, like 'common sense', as a completely concealed political system of various beliefs and power structures which are taken for granted to be absolute, true and inviolable.

And anyhow, what if the content or the context of the meaningless chitchat, or social situation, or language, means you come away feeling completely erased and made invisible? What do you do?

Flux and Dao, if you had a conversation with a stranger and they assumed you were gay, and made numerous sexually suggestive comments about it, what would your reaction be? Would you tell them you weren't gay? If the person kept on insisting that surely this was wrong, that you MUST be gay.... How would you react?
 
 
pantone 292
09:55 / 09.12.01
dear bitchkittie, the story that I related in response to Rosa's questions about how we deal with the perlitical cannot be reduced to having a chip on my shoulder - unless this is the way you want to write off all political points of view. Which isnt to say that I didnt have some of those kinds of responses - as I said politics produces effects and affects/personal responses. My problem was being unable to find a way to negotiate a difference that appeared to be a new difference within a friendship other than simply shutting up about the whole thing and not 'rocking the boat'. What I think I want, tho have thus far failed to do, is find a negotiation without reducing it to - you be like me/no, you be like me, since not just my attendance but my total approval was being solicited.
 
 
sumo
09:55 / 09.12.01
quote:
Wake up. There's no difference between [personal ideology and inter-personal engagements]. That's the whole point of the original claim, isn't it?


As I read it, I assume the original question relates to when and how you should allow your political beliefs, your personal ideology, to influence and dictate the manner in which you engage with other people. When is your personal ideology subordinated to the imperative to just "get along"? Two very different things.

quote:
What it comes down to is choosing your battles and your moment. An elderly gentleman holds open a restaurant door for a young woman. Old-style chivalry, partiarchal in the truest sense, but well-meant. Accept the courtesy or object to the implied invokation of a societal mode of which you don't approve?


They are not "battles", for two reasons.

First, I'm under no delusion that my actions, in my personal capacity, will have any far-reaching effects on prevailing societal norms. I can only, and do, affect my personal interactions with other members of my society. Therefore, to deny my political beliefs is to deny myself. It has nothing to do with saving face.

Second, you seem to be implying that asserting your ideology involves hostility. It doesn't. You can actually talk to someone, without beating them to death with your supposedly superior ethical standards and belief-system.

You've constucted a rather precious scenario. Assume the "elderly gentleman" (and presumably he can be forgiven any faults by virtue of his advanced years?) is white, and that the young woman he initially holds the door for is also white; and that he subsequently rudely shoulders the young black woman immediately following her out of the way and walks into the restaurant himself. You'll still hold your tongue? At what point do the actions of someone else become unacceptable and compell you to act ideologically? Or do we always consider foremost the strategic value, in terms of effect on both the person you're interacting with, and yourself, of any actions we take?
 
 
Cat Chant
09:55 / 09.12.01
Lots of stuff here. Thanks, Rosa.

Coming from the marriage/single brouhaha: what surprised me was that on the one hand, the questions were defended as being clearly "meant" to be inclusive, easily adaptable to other 'lifestyles', etc, while on the other hand, the level of emotion and the vocabulary in my reply were ruled inappropriate because they carried a perceived "political" and (unhappy/angry)emotional dimension. Haus had already raised the political point that marriage was a legal and social issue rather than/as well as a lifestyle choice, so it looks to me as though it was the *combination* of the personal and the political that was to be excluded from the thread. Flux later insisted that Ganesh (in his example) should just have answered "no" to the marriage question, since it was a "yes or no question" - which kind of undermines the idea that the thread was designed to elicit some sort of information about people's lives and feelings, rather than a statistical breakdown of the legal/economic status of barbeloids.

JtB's response, that I am "seemingly incapable of depoliticising my life", suggested that there should be a way to live, experience and talk about one's life that was detached from politics or ideology. As if ideology was not operating in the very structures that determine what would be an appropriately "depoliticised" reponse: an ideology, for example, that sees sexual relationships as in the "private" rather than the public domain.

The whole process whereby an "appropriate response" in a given context is defined and policed is a political process - sleaze's point about "the artificial boundaries of small talk". A 'hey, why can't we all play nice and get along' attitude seems to suggest that prejudice and normalization somehow operate outside the level of individual encounters, as if, for example, racism only "happened" when the BNP had a rally.

Obviously there are large-scale, "political" structures of racism, sexism, class oppression, homophobia, etc, and one way to do battle against them is to engage in traditionally political activities (lobbying, consciousness-raising, marching, etc) and hope that once the structures are vanquished, the individual examples and expressions of prejudice/normalization will vanish of their own accord. Even then, though, you're left with the question of what to do in the meantime when an everyday encounter brings these structures into play, and how to negotiate that without trying to "convert" the other person/people but while still trying to find room to challenge the structures which make it impossible for one to speak or be heard on one's own terms. I tried to talk about this ages ago in a thread in the Conversation on 'whiteness & temping' & would be overjoyed if anyone had any good strategies/examples/theory around this.

This is a very depersonalized response, isn't it? Well, the marriage/single thing has felt very 'personal', in that the objections to my original response feel like attempts to exclude my own particular, individual, personal response to the questions - the political being personal rather than/as well as vice versa. And I feel personally threatened when people try and downgrade the importance of theory and politics to my life. If I depoliticized my life, I wouldn't have one.

In terms of the centre/margin question: I'm actually pretty central. White, middle-class, not visibly gay (or not often, or tending to be in spaces where my clothing/appearance does not cause a reaction), not in a relationship and not having sex or looking to do so, so not having to negotiate visible coupledom/expression of sexuality issues. This is, obviously, a very privileged and safe position to be in, but it does mean that I am constantly faced with dilemmas about when, where and how to *make* my sexuality visible, and when, where and how to attempt to reject or undermine the set of privileges and assumptions that being white and middle-class brings with it.
 
 
Naked Flame
14:11 / 09.12.01
Gah. My uncle was over at the family house today for the first time in a year or so (he lives in France.) on witnessing a minor outbreak of road rage he muttered 'oh piss off back to Africa' and I bit my tongue and said nothing. We all know he's sort of residually racist but nobody says anything whenever it happens cos he's the type that really can't be argued with... you know? despite the fact that the roadrage person's accent was definitively 2nd or 3rd generation Sarf Lahndahn.

I can't help feeling that I suck for not calling him out on it even though the resulting argument would have ruined the whole day. Bah.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
00:23 / 10.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Rosa d'Ruckus:

Flux and Dao, if you had a conversation with a stranger and they assumed you were gay, and made numerous sexually suggestive comments about it, what would your reaction be? Would you tell them you weren't gay? If the person kept on insisting that surely this was wrong, that you MUST be gay.... How would you react?


Well, this has happened at least once, mostly due to my good friendship with a man who seems gay, though he in fact is not. Any time this has come up, I usually do one of two things: if it is a person whom I feel may make my life more difficult by inferring that I am gay (ie, a threat), I quietly state that I am straight, which is factual. Most of the time, I would just refuse to confirm or deny anything. I'm not so attached to the label of being 'straight' that I'm about to fight about it. As far as I'm concerned, I only consider myself straight because all of the people I've been attracted to up til now have been female, and I've not been attracted to any men. So it's a default definition.

My basic stance on small talk is this: I hate small talk beyond all belief. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. I avoid it whenever I can. I think that small talk should be limited to basic pleasantries, and as little of one's personality should be revealed as possible. I would think that small talk is an example of social alienation, and yeah, I'm probably a very socially alienated man, because I'm certainly not shy.

I think that bringing complex ideas into conversation with people with whom you have some level of established acquaintance is fine and appropriate, bringing it into 'hello, how are you, pleased to meet you' type of conversation is obnoxious and unneccessary... whether than be in a thread which serves that purpose here, or at your school or workplace. There is nothing wrong with being polite, feeling people out for when it is a good time to start talking more seriously, or knowing that there is a time and place for intellectual 'challenges' and discourse...

[ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: Flux = Traffic Tiger ]
 
 
Ganesh
11:19 / 10.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Rosa d'Ruckus:Flux and Dao, if you had a conversation with a stranger and they assumed you were gay, and made numerous sexually suggestive comments about it, what would your reaction be? Would you tell them you weren't gay? If the person kept on insisting that surely this was wrong, that you MUST be gay.... How would you react?

Heh. I've been on both sides of this one: situations where people have pushed the 'you just haven't met the right woman, you're not really gay' angle and, on one memorably stupid (and contagious) drunken occasion my own haranguing of a rather camp - but straight - Robbie Williams lookylikie colleague. "But how d'you know you're not gay?" I implored, "Have you ever tried? D'you want to go to bed with me now? Just as an experiment, like..."

Dear Reader, I didn't marry him.

In general, I don't think there's an easy, straightforward way of distentangling 'personal' from 'political' (if such a thing is, indeed, desirable). In practice, I think most of us shift in and out of varying social personae, at least some of which are overtly "politicised". I agree with Dao that some zones should be designated 'apolitical' but I doubt that can ever be an absolute. The nearest I come to being completely 'depoliticised' is when I'm professionally interviewing a psychiatric patient. In those situations, it's basically my job to gently encourage disclosure - so my own views, political or otherwise, are kept firmly out of the picture. I don't actually collude, though; if someone's making comments I find politically offensive, I just take pains to react as little as possible, or steer the conversation onto more relevant matters.

The doctor/patient scenario is a pretty rarefied one, though. Most of the rest of the time, I'm reasonably observant of the 'safe zones' of friends, relatives and colleagues. By nature, I don't 'rock the boat' much - only really when something or someone especially pisses me off - but I respect those who do. Using homosexuality as an illustration, we need our Peter Tatchells; it's the existence of the horse-frighteners which allows the rest of us the luxury of relative political apathy.

As I've said before, I'm not immediately identifiable as fitting the most 'obvious' gay stereotypes. I'd echo Deva's comments about having to decide when and where to 'make a stand'/'rock the boat'/get on a soapbox/spoil the nice party by saying "Well, actually, I'm a poof", etc.

I'm not sure how this applies on Barbelith. Essentially, I don't think 'theory-bitching' should be disallowed in any area; to try to enforced such would run counter to the whole self-governing anti-censorship ethos of the place. In practice, I suspect it depends on the tone and volume of the 'note of dissent'. A couple of snippy lines by Deva, say, is less jarring (to my eyes, anyway) than a ten-thousand-word Laila rant, all else being equal.

I dunno. It's a toughie.

[ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
bitchiekittie
11:33 / 10.12.01
bluestocking - the comment wasnt directed at you personally. it was directed at anyone who chooses to battle it out with people for simply choosing terminology that is harmless yet doesnt fit into your life

to me, marriage isnt a set of rules that a couple must fit into, but rather a statement of love and commitment. I forget that what one person sees as a ritual of caring is another persons written terms of bondage, and should be treated as such (???)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:19 / 10.12.01
And if somebody does not see marriage in the same "harmless" way, they have a chip on their shoulder? This would suggest that the personal is not only p0olitical but somewhat autocratic...
 
 
bitchiekittie
14:12 / 10.12.01
Im simply saying that someone who goes into attack mode (and I AM NOT claiming thats what deva did, so dont bother with that particular accusation) when someones terminology offends, rather than to tell that person "Id prefer not to answer" or "I think thats a tad personal" or "the entire concept of marriage is an affront to me" and then follow through with some friendly suggestions about what I could say next time to avoid the hurt feelings. which would be infinitely more helpful in the attempt to clarify peoples misconceptions about others
 
 
Dao Jones
14:19 / 10.12.01
Rosa: quote:Flux and Dao, if you had a conversation with a stranger and they assumed you were gay, and made numerous sexually suggestive comments about it, what would your reaction be? Would you tell them you weren't gay? If the person kept on insisting that surely this was wrong, that you MUST be gay.... How would you react?Happens constantly. I've also been chased down the street a few times by a few lads looking to smack me about. Apparently I don't "look straight". (I'll take that as a compliment.)

And God knows how many people (gay and straight) have decided I 'just hadn't figured out' that I was gay, or hadn't come out. Enough to make a nice collection if I pinned them all to a board under glass.

And to be fair, my sexuality is in a grey area I don't especially want to define - I do things nice straight boys really aren't supposed to do. But I can function as straight.

So I suppose it's not a useful question - I don't have to care about some ill-informed stranger or friend making a bad guess. Although if ever there's a McCarthy-style inquisition in one direction or another, I am truly fucked.

Haus: quote:So, "humanity", ie behaving in a particular fashion to people depending on how you perceive them, and thus moderating your behaviour according to a set of precepts, is not an ideology?You might want to consider it as a meta-ideology - a notion of when to apply analysis and abstracted reason to the lifeworld in which we interact and exist.

You also might want to examine the proposition rather than pick holes in the architecture.

Up to you, of course.
 
 
Cat Chant
16:13 / 10.12.01
quote:Originally posted by bitchiekittie:
tell that person "Id prefer not to answer" or "I think thats a tad personal" or "the entire concept of marriage is an affront to me" and then follow through with some friendly suggestions about what I could say next time to avoid the hurt feelings. which would be infinitely more helpful in the attempt to clarify peoples misconceptions about others


Which brings up a point which interests me. To what extent is it useful to read an instance of 'political' intervention in an 'apolitical' context (scare quotes because I believe that the elision of 'politics' from conversational topics is *precisely* where some of the most important politics happens) as one person "attempting to clarify another's misconceptions?"

For the record, that is not what I was trying to do in bk's thread. I'm not in the business of trying to convert people.

And with that, I honestly hope I'm bowing out, because I've said everything I have to say and am just going to start getting (more) heated and repetitive.

[Edited because I got a bit nasty and then bottled out. Sorry.]

[ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: Deva ]
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:52 / 10.12.01
tired, and want to get stuff down so am ignoring thread and answering questions...

good questions. I have a love/hate on/off, relationship with my own personal theory bitch.

On the one hand, I don't think I could separate my political (which often people seem to implictly oppose to personal) agendas and my passions, personal actions, physical environments, experiences etc... It just wouldn't make sense to me, they feed off each other and are intermingled... and like Rosa, occasionally, having those structures and languages has been the only thing standing between me and total alienation/breakdown.

I can distinctly remember, cheesy though it sounds, sitting in a class about Peggy Phelan, feeling something click in my head in a kind of 'ahaaaaa, so that's a way to think/feel things that i've never seen before', something that permeated my thinkingfeelingseeingencountering process(not really wanting to set up a separation between these right now) and still fires me...

I'd also, typically, want to open up the question of what 'theory' we're talking about here.

eg I'm at the beginning of doing a counselling course which mixes experiential work with theoretical models and is utterly reshaping my models... not just making me look at myself in a searching way, but I@m feeling the lessons I'm learning soak into the way I approach the world...

...and also, doing this kind of work, which i got into out of enthusiasm, is bringing me into environments where being me, whatever that is at that moment, is enough, which is wonderfully empowering thing, feeding into my personal esteem and energy and of course into what others might see as my politcal/'broad sweep' thoughts/actions...

brought that in to give an example of how it all mixes together for me. and depending on what headstate i'm in, I may seem more or less 'political' but i'd want to know how someone was identifying that.

as to when its acceptable, I think this is a matter of socialisation, and like most of our behaviours, we weigh up when we think the point/type of action (when this action runs across/against what we percieve the established tone of the encounter to be)... don't know if I think in the 'political' sphere the process is any different to, for example, being aware that you know soemthing secret about someone in a group, and not talking about it in front of others... that you will 'keep the peace' if you think it doesn't need to be said, but that there are times when the tone needs to be changed...

hmmm. clear as Nile mud? will think more.

one thing about the 'theorybitching' language is that often those of us who chuck it about don't even notice we're usuing t as we use it so much. not in a 'wow aren't we clever way' but just that if a lang. is really familiar to you, you don't privelidge it, and will probably forget that it'll appear wilfully obscure or exclusionary.

case in point. I was moaning to one friend about another whose language I frequently find hard to follow because of the sort of references she uses. the ear I was bending promptly responded that she could do with subtitles every time i dropped into 'therapy' speak or talked about 'self-actualisation'etc. Something I'd thought was perfectly average lang was in fact tech-speak.

hmm, maybe thinking of ways of communicating the viewpoints without the jargon is one way to go?

jeez this is long. in answer to the second bit i'll briefly say that i think it's probably more likely that you'll go the 'personal is political' route if your 'personal' life is v.explictly politicised for you. But that it ain't neccessarily so, alot of the personal traits that fire my 'political' side are things I've had since birth, and in several cases its only very recently that they've 'become' part of my political growth. (icky phrase but tired and hpoe it gets across what i mean)

phew.

[ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: Lick my plums, bitch. ]
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:58 / 10.12.01
think therefore my politics are always with me in whatever situation i'm in, i choose to raise them. only exception is like 'nesh, i have been and am in working therapeutic situations where I explictly put aside my judgements and reactions in order for someone else to have an utterly safe space in which to be.

which, as something I'm beginning to do after a long time away, is an interesting counterpoint to this kind of debate.
 
 
Ganesh
17:08 / 10.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Lick my plums, bitch.:
i think it's probably more likely that you'll go the 'personal is political' route if your 'personal' life is v.explictly politicised for you.


True. To some extent, it seems analogous to the familiar situation whereby those who say, "must we talk about money? it's really not important" usually don't have to worry about paying the bills. I guess attempting to disentangle the personal from the political is more of a luxury for some of us than others.
 
 
Ganesh
17:51 / 10.12.01
Sure. As analogies go, it's hardly watertight.
 
 
belbin
20:20 / 10.12.01
Plums> So what we have here is shaped by context and intent? I know that's a bit banal but I want to work with it some more.

If you view each interaction with someone as having a set of motivations (I'm reluctant to use the word 'objectives' but, hell, why not that too). This is going to be one driver in terms of the language you use. The second is going to be the context for this (where are you, who are you talking to). Now if you're perfectly aware of what both of these are, then you use certain kinds of language to achieve the outcome that you think is best.

If you're perfectly aware...

But you never are, and never can be. So you might misread the situation (e.g. not knowing that the target of your words thinks you're speaking jargon).

However, you might also be misreading your own motives (e.g. my aim here is actually to piss my friend off because I can't stand them rather than to communicate an idea).

Not that I'm suggesting the latter about your specific example above, Plums.

To what extent do we retrospecively 'account' for communications breakdowns in terms of context vs motives?

Random thoughts fired off at random (apologies for banality again):
- 'Apolitical' environments are as inherently constructed and maintained as political ones. We all know how fragile 'politeness' is?
- The personal is what makes politics meaningful - it just so happens that if you're part of a marginal social group, your concerns are more likely to be noted as deviant expressions of the personal rather than 'valid' political opinions.
 
  
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