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The Trial of God

 
  

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Dao Jones
16:05 / 07.12.01
Inspired by the thread in the Magick.

Look around you. Look behind you and before you. Look at yourself, at the world, at the Universe.

God did all that. So: what accolades, what punishments...and what overall result? Ruler of the universe(s) or the electric chair?

In the end, the adulthood of humaity must come with the judging of God.
 
 
Kid crime
17:47 / 07.12.01
God has been sentenced.

Imagine, being the creator,trapped in your own creation.Plunging into the pleasures/pains of the flesh. Amnesiac. Forced to understand and not to judge. Equal to those around you, except for the splinter in the mind's eye driving you on.

Which God anyways??

NOT GUILTY- BY REASON OF INSANITY
 
 
netbanshee
19:28 / 07.12.01
quote:God did all that.

...or better yet...God is all that...process is God...goals are never really an end state...
 
 
Dao Jones
12:29 / 08.12.01
Stop that. What a load of cop-out crap.

This is about blame and pain and love and life. God is responsible. Never mind whether God is a whorl of 5D compressed tachyons or a survivor of a vast alien gameshow or a notion in our collective blah blah blah.

God is in the dock. Guilty of creation. You're the judge. Sentence!
 
 
SMS
15:20 / 08.12.01
God shall henceforth continue being God and being the whole of the universe, thereby suffering all pains and all pleasures until time no longer has meaning.

God shall also meet once per week with a local gambler's anonymous or other such organization to be approved by the court, until such time as the court shall determine that He no longer engages in dice games or other games of chance and that He has sufficiently suppressed His desire to do so and that evidence suggests that couseling shall no longer have a significant positive affect upon Our Lord in Heaven.

Our Father shall, for sixteen months from today, Saturday, December 8, 2001 in the year of our Lord, have rights to appeal this decision to a higher court so long as that court is not the highest court, for He shall not have the rights to appeal to Himself as Judge.
 
 
Rev. Wright
07:14 / 09.12.01
If you've read the thread in Magick then you'll know my stance..

.....off wiv iz 'ed.
 
 
Hieronymus
01:48 / 10.12.01
Reminds me of one of my favorite satirists, James Morrow. Blameless in Abaddon is just about the funniest take on this theme. Take one comatose Jehovah. Try for crimes against humanity. Hilarity ensues.
 
 
deja_vroom
10:12 / 10.12.01
He's guilty, isn't he? He's a virotic idea, feeding off of breeders and epileptic people.
To the chair with him!
 
 
SMS
23:49 / 10.12.01
Your honor, this whole proceeding is preposterous. Has anyone stopped to consider the precedent that will be set if a creator is punished for creating? Would we punish a computer programmer for writing a program with several bugs? Certainly this in itself isn't a crime. Would we punish a writer for writing a depressing tale?

Furthermore, against whom is this crime committed? Perhaps the human "beings." Well, if that is your claim, then I would ask you to consider seriously whether these things are actually sentient. They seem no more than highly complicated computers with elements of randomness to me. By no means are they sentient when compared to God Himself.
 
 
sumo
05:39 / 11.12.01
quote:Would we punish a computer programmer for writing a program with several bugs?

What if the programmer was aware of the bugs, perhaps even deliberately coding them (the very definition of a computer virus)? Would we then not assign culpability?

Surely the Omniscient Programmer that is God is aware of all the "bugs", and in fact deliberately created them?

To the electric chair, I say.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
15:56 / 11.12.01
Send him to the chair for giving us the ability to decide to bomb the crap out of eachother, discriminate merely to cover our own insecurities, exploit our neighbours in order to buy that second yacht? Who is comitting the crime here, exactly?

Granted, bad things happen to nice people for no apparent reason. But who knows, maybe they get another go. Maybe it's to remind us that we can't control everything, and should make the most of what we have.

Come on, lets have some evidence. Point out stuff intrinsic in the design that can only be considered evil. The death sentence needs a unanimous decision beyond reasonable doubt, after all...

Not intending to hide behind the 'moving in mysterious ways' defence, though. At the risk of painting myself into a corner, defense must consist of a benefit that would be difficult to acquire in other ways.

And lets not confuse Deities with their religions.

Game on.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:07 / 11.12.01
God, if we believe the hype, made us fallible. And God has opted to require faith from us. There's not a lot of writing in the sky these days, is there?

And of course, God's omnipotent. So S/He could choose to stop bad things happening and make Crime Not Pay.

God can do anything. So why are we so shite?

Raw deal, it seems to me.

And it's not a lot better if you're a mollusc, either.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
11:29 / 12.12.01
I reckon the fact there has not been much writing in the sky suggests faith is not required. Letting us work it out for ourselves, learn from our mistakes (sometimes).

Without the bad, there might not be any Mother Theresas.
 
 
Ganesh
11:42 / 12.12.01
Accidents happen. It's an accident; no-one's to blame. Stop chasing ambulances...
 
 
deja_vroom
11:48 / 12.12.01
By Morlock/1:
quote:Without the bad, there might not be any Mother Theresas

Who said Mother Theresa is some role model or should be a source of inspiration? Do some research on her life and you will be surprised about what will come up. Politics, that's all it is.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
15:30 / 13.12.01
Yes all right, thank you de Jade. I'll happily admit most of my posts are somewhat less than completely researched, but you know what I mean.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
17:28 / 18.12.01
This thread is pretty moribund, but here's a blurb I read today from a new book titled "Christ: A Crisis in the Life of God"

quote:The world is a great crime, and someone must be made to pay for it. Mythologically read, the New Testament is the story of how someone, the right someone, does pay for it. The ultimately responsible party accepts his responsibility.And once he has paid the price, who else need be blamed, who else need be punished? The same act that exposes all authority as provisional renders all revenge superfluous. And because the death of God does this, it functions within the myth as not just another death but a redemptive death,one that saves us from the violence that we might otherwise feel justified in inflicting on one another. God must die, yes, but he will rise, and at his empty tomb, where none is king, all may be forgiven and may submit to one another. Thus does his kingdom come. Thus does the Lamb of God take away the sin of the world.

Book review here

I may have to pick this up.
 
 
Lazlo Woodbine [some call me Laz]
12:54 / 19.12.01
God is guilty of nothing and innocent of the same amount.

He did not create the universe, he was born along side it, and was choosen as its guardian, to guide its creations sentient and not so sentient.

He's done an o.k job so far, screwed the human race but thats no biggie as it's in our nature to destroy.

WE ARE THE GUILTY PARTY!
 
 
EEEO
22:41 / 20.12.01
I'm lost after the premise "God did all that."

God?!!?! Whom might that be?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
23:48 / 20.12.01
Before the sentencing, there would be Deity Civil Liberties activists trying to get an appeal.

It's clear from this thread that the jury wasn't impartial and certainly not of his peers.

I say, a jury made up of Odin, Demeter, Mithra... fuck... they wouldn't be impartial either.

Time to get out of the way of the lynch mob.

God: "I didn't do it. It wasn't me. I lied all this time. Azazel! He was the one. He created it all. It's all his fault."
 
 
Harold Washington died for you
04:49 / 21.12.01
quote: Thou art God.

No, really. I'm no math genius but I've been dipping my toe in some books and stuff on physical theories of the universe. Mr. Heisenberg said that reality is uncertain, as the at of observation may actually be changing what we see. Is that magic? Are we all gods?
 
 
sumo
06:37 / 21.12.01
Thread-rotted to all hell.

I don't think Dao meant for this to reduce to a discussion of the existence of God.

The universe exists. Something, someone, or a troupe of malicious inter-dimensional dancing dentists are responsible for that. Call it the Creative Force if you want. Doesn't matter. The Entity Resonsible For Creation has, quite understandably, been found guilty of creation. What is the sentence?

I still say the electric chair, being currently incapable of seeing The Point.
 
 
Dao Jones
06:53 / 21.12.01
[Ben Kingsley]

I cannot kill my thread.

Gentlemen? Kill my thread.

[/Ben Kingsley]
 
 
Whisky Priestess
14:15 / 21.12.01
God's punishment is to have to do it all over again.

Or have it cold for breakfast.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
14:34 / 21.12.01
Death sentence without a unanimous verdict? Without an assigned council for defence? Nice.

Punishing the Father for the crimes of the sons/daughters/anyone else feeling excluded...

Feel like the US of A.
 
 
Dao Jones
14:58 / 21.12.01
I'm sorry, what? The Ultimate Being requires a defense attorney? Why, in case He hasn't read the relevant laws or can't remember them?

Think it through, Morlock.

In any case, there's no question of guilt. This is, you may recall, a thought experiment predicated on the notion that God exists and did make the world.

And the Father, in this case, is omnipresent, omnipotent, and therefore can, without effort, prevent all and any negative action without loss.

It does seem rather callous to let all these vile things happen, don't you think?
 
 
Sharkgrin
15:18 / 21.12.01
I'm looking forward to seeing a skinny dancer dressed like an NYC gang member tie God's wrist to the wrist of Michael Jackson (also dressed like an NYC gang member), give both God and Michael switch blades, and let them solve it one-on-one (BAD-style) -
For the record, I don't believe the existence of Michael Jackson can be proven.

When I am spiritually attuned to the world around me and emotionally well, I could find God in everything, everywhere, on everyone's face.

When I'm spiritually dis-eased, and I'm carrying unresolved issues of resentments and fears BASED ON MY OWN THINKI"NG (like they always are), I used to blame God as the scheming super-villian, Lex Luthor/Darth Vader/Ming the Merciless/Dr Doom-style.

It's like a flea trying to blame the dog, or a sea-monkey blaming the kid who bought the sea-monkey eggs - What laws did he break? What humans laws apply to the creator? The laws created by one of the fleas? The laws created by the the dried-up sea horse eggs will appl y to the kid who bought them? The laws created by a well-meaning ex-slave leading a bunch of pissed-off barbarians through the desert?

I move for a mistrial based on the diplomatic immunity/property rights/untouchable status of the defendant.

[ 21-12-2001: Message edited by: Sharkgrin ]
 
 
Seth
21:53 / 21.12.01
Has anyone here read Job? I kinda liked God's reply when Job actually put some of these questions to Him.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:25 / 22.12.01
So you gonna tell us or do we have to go read the Book?
 
 
Persephone
17:38 / 22.12.01
Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

Who %is% this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

Where was %thou% when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding...

There's more, He goes on for four chapters... but also I like this:

Canst %thou% draw out leviathan with a hook? or his tongue with cord which thou lettest down?
 
 
Dao Jones
18:47 / 22.12.01
Exactly. God designed us so that we could not do those things, as he designed us flawed, and then reproaches us.

God chose when to create us and controls (at least by default) when each of us is born. And then reproaches us for not being there when he was making the world.

Guilty by admission, I think. So - what to do?
 
 
Persephone
20:56 / 22.12.01
Excuse me, have I got this correct? In this thread you are saying:

1. We are to assume that there is a God.
2. We are also to assume that this God is responsible for creating the world we live in.
3. Creating the world is a crime, in your opinion...
4. ...because the world we live in is flawed, which is indisputable.
5. Which means that God is guilty of the crime of creating the world.
 
 
alas
04:31 / 23.12.01
god has been framed here. we've framed the question as "god is guilty/not guilty of creation"; i'd say god's just not innocent. And who wants an innocent god? Getting tagged with the label of innocence is what leads to economies of sacrifice, as the experience of about 2002 years ago (or so) apparently proved, and the experience of most children in the US proves each day (what with something like 1/5 living in poverty, super high infant mortality rates, etc). No, alas, only Mary was supposed be to a virgin unspotted (well, apparently according to some Greek translators of the Gospel who were freaked out by women's bodies and semen) when she got together with the Almighty. But I don't know; if you go far enough back into the archives of People magazine, i bet you could find something on her, too . . . so: who's innocent? and why should we even want to enforce innocence, in any case?

I'm out of order, you're out of order, this whole court is out of order . . .

[ 23-12-2001: Message edited by: lask ]
 
 
Dao Jones
04:31 / 23.12.01
I'm just fascinated by all this. Yes, Persephone, I've asked you to assume or accept whole bunches of stuff. I'm not even being careful to be consistent, although I don't think I've goofed yet.
 
 
Persephone
02:25 / 24.12.01
I have to confess, I posted the Job passages just to be flirting with expressionless. Sarcasm marks added out of sheer wickedness.

It's funny if you pretend that it's God saying what you just said:

quote:Originally posted by God:
I'm just fascinated by all this. Yes... I've asked you to assume or accept whole bunches of stuff. I'm not even being careful to be consistent, although I don't think I've goofed yet.
 
  

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