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Are two heads are better than one?

 
  

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Graeme McMillan
23:22 / 28.01.03
Spiralling out of the much-maligned Mark Millar thread...

Moriarty:

"Concerning the original essay, I found his breakdown of writing and art in comics to be the most distressing part. I can undeerstand why it hasn't been brought up here, seeing as Barbelith is a very writer-centric message board. If I were asked to name my favourite comics, I have little doubt that at least 4 out of 5 of those comics would be written and drawn by the same person, and I am being very generous in that estimate. The same could be said for favourite creators (living or dead). Millar names two "superhuman creatures", Miller and Eisner, as examples of people who can both write and draw well. I don't see them as writer and/or artist. I would say that this is a third option, the cartoonist. All other things being equal, I think a cartoonist has a better chance of creating great comics than a writer/artist team does, and I believe the history of the artform would prove my point."

...which was followed by Laurence Llewelyn-Bowen broke my toilet fixtures saying:

"I would disagree - most of the truly great comics don't come from a single voice. We can start with Alan Moore and work downward..."

Me, I think I'm somewhere inbetween. Certainly, the cartoonist (that is, writer and artist as one person) has an obvious unity of vision that a creative team can't, no matter how much in synch they are. But I have to admit that my favourite comics - Eddie Campbell's Alec aside - are generally the work of more than one person...
 
 
moriarty
02:23 / 29.01.03
I was holding back on answering on the other thread to avoid rot. Thanks for starting this one up.

It comes down to personal preference, I suppose. Alan Moore wouldn't even make my top 50. I think what I look for in comics is different from what others look for, especially most of the posters on this site. The most obvious example is the Invisibles. While I agree that the concept and the ideas in the Invisibles are interesting, I find the execution lacking, which is why I came to Barbelith in the first place.

For me, what's said is less important than how it's said.

It's easy for many to say that their favourite comics are done by more then one creator when for most people assembly mill comics are practically the only kind they read (for the record, I know that this isn't the case for all people, and considering past mentions of sole-creator comics by him, this is not the case for LLBG in particular).

In no way am I saying that it isn't possible to have great co-created comics. Jack and Stan's Fantastic Four and Ennis and McCrea's Hitman come to mind. Without exception, every collaborative comic that has swept me away has been by two people who were working very closely together, sometimes with overlapping duties. In his essay, Millar separates the two roles, but in the past has credited Hitch with helping plot the Ultimates, something he doesn't appear to do wiht all his artists. In the Batman - Year One thread, Jack Fear mentions that the comic shows Miller backtracking, while I think it's probably more Mazzuchelli's book than Miller's, no matter what the credits say. The same influence can be seen in most of Miller's collaborations, and Moore's, where he willingly concedes a great deal of control to the artist.

"How many writers were in the original Image line-up and how many copies did those books sell? Got a number in your head? Now, flash-forward a year or two and some of the biggest and most respected writers in the industry are being paid anywhere from fifty thousand to five hundred thousand dollars an issue to bring a little sense and prestige to these critically-derided creations of America's biggest comic-book artists. And what happened? The books collapsed in sales within a matter of months. Our common sense tells us that good writer plus good artist equals top book, but the fact of the matter is that Image Comics was created by artists and almost destroyed by writers, whether we liked to admit it or not. Perversely, it's when the books became much, much better, but the numbers speak for themselves." - Mark Millar, italics mine.

See, the funny thing is, the books didn't get better. When the Image artists were writing them themselves, they were at least consistent. For what they were, adolescent male power fantasies pushed to near incomprehesiblity, they were the best they could be, if that's your type of thing. When other hands got involved, they were diminished.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
03:11 / 29.01.03
I don't know, folks. I think there's a lot to be said for collaboration, and there's a lot to be said for writer-illustrator auteurs, and obviously, a lot of brilliant work can be made either way in comics and other kinds of art. It's sort of ridiculous and pointlessly reductive to try to say one method of making art is inherantly superior to the other.

However, I will say this - the old "too many cooks..." line is often right on the money, and we've got a few dozen New X-Men threads to illustrate that point. There is a big difference between artistic collaboration between an illustrator and a writer and work for hire, and unfortunately most corporate assembly-line style comics suffer for this fact.
 
 
sleazenation
07:25 / 29.01.03
Its funny people mention Alan Moore and Grant Morrison as solely writers - sure that is what they are mostly known for now, but both of them started out as cartoonists - I believe Alan Moore did the artwork for his own Maxwell the Magic Cat stories and Grant Morrison did the art on his early Gideon Stargrave work...

But mainly I think that compairing between collaborative works and single creator works is like comparing apples an oranges. They are very different, and the comics produced are done so in the different styles that have their own ideosyncrasies in both production and style. Having said that there is an interesting blurry area. Are cartoonists who employ inkers, colorers, letterers and background artists collaborators or cartooonists? They undoubtedly produce cartoons, but the look of their work is very reliant on that of other people...


I will return to this thread when i have more time...
 
 
The Natural Way
08:21 / 29.01.03
Whilst I really, really dig the fact that you have such a big passion for comics above and beyond the usual suspects, Mori, I just can't understand the Alan Moore thing. The Grant Morrison thing, yes, but Alan Moore? Watchmen...V....From Hell.....Swamp Thing..... Apart from being brilliant examples of collaboration throwing up amazing shit neither creator could have expected (one of the joys of collaboration - the element of surprise!), they're just excellent stories, beautifully told. And so affecting! The characterisation....everything... I can't believe you don't get this stuff from Moore's best work. I dunny understand.
 
 
DaveBCooper
10:23 / 29.01.03
I think Sleazenation’s comment on the artistic abilities of Moore and Morrison is a good point; I’ve always felt one of Moore’s strengths as a writer is knowing just how much text a panel can bear (on what one might call the Ellis – Smith spectrum of wordiness). I think it’s this which makes Moore’s stories flow as well as they do (offhand, I can’t think of a Moore story which doesn’t flow well, even if it’s say, one of the more expositional issues of Promethea), and I think the same applies to Morrison’s work, Miller’s as a writer, and the like. Understanding the balance of words and art, I believe, lies at the heart of the medium.

I don’t know if the introduction of known writers into the Image stable could necessarily be seen as the sole reason the sales started to slide, because if memory serves weren’t the sales on the wane anyway ? You could point to the fact that the comics were past the speculator-friendly #1 as a reason – a Comics International headline at the time stated that Youngblood #2 sales were a drop of 50% from #1 – and so I think that Moore, Sim, Gaiman and Miller were brought in on Spawn and Claremont onto W.I.L.D.Cats more as a way of trying to arrest declining sales; more a symptom, one which may or may not have been remedied by this short-term cure (I’m sure many people bought the issues by writers they were interested in and then bailed out, as I did), but which certainly wasn’t the root cause.

Returning to the central idea of whether the medium’s best served by a sole vision or collaborative work, I know it’s a cop-out, but I’d have to say that you can’t make any hard and fast rules; enjoyable/successful/whatever-other-positive-word-you-want-to-use comics and cartoons aren’t made as straightforwardly as putting together certain ingredients. Sometimes, collaboration’s the way to go (Watchmen without either Moore or Gibbons is as unthinkable as Spider-Man without Ditko or Lee; Lennon and McCartney stuff), and other times a single person knows the way (Watterson, Eisner, Kirby, Campbell, Talbot). But equally, there are instances where a creator’s probably got too much free rein (Miller writing, drawing and editing on Ronin springs to mind, most of the Leifeld stuff from the 90s) and where good creators somehow don’t gel, despite the promising nature of a project (Sam Kieth on leaving Sandman : “I feel like Jimi Hendrix in the Beatles”). So I think it’d be dangerous, at best, to say that a sole creator, or collaboration, is the best route to creative success. It’s just as dangerous to say this about music (Lennon-McCartney and The Smiths on one side, Mozart and Bowie on the other) or film (Kaufman and Jonze, Welles and Mankiewicz, or Lynch). Would people generalise in this way about these forms ?

And I’d share Runce’s slight surprise at Moriarty’s comment about not rating Alan Moore that highly, but I’m not having a go there; Moriarty’s posts have consistently shown a solid and informed knowledge of comics and cartooning, so it’s not as if the non-impressedness is born of ignorance or anything like that (unlike a friend of mine who said – and these are his exact words – “I’ve never read any Stephen King books, because they’re all shit”). So if Mori doesn’t like Moore’s stuff, I’d guess it’s one of those ‘each to their own’ things. Not wrong, just different, and gawd knows the world’s big enough – even if the medium seems to be contracting sometimes – to have room for people to like different stuff.
 
 
No star here laces
11:40 / 29.01.03
As a bit of an aside - is there maybe something in the thought that people who produce comics tend to rate writer/cartoonists higher than those who don't? And has this something to do with a greater appreciation of craft?

For example, I rate Stan Sakai as one of the best craftsmen at the moment at using the comics medium to tell a story. His panels are beautifully constructed with the story flowing along whether you read the text or not. And in many other comics produced by one person you notice this kind of craft as well - occasional pages or panels in 100% or Chester Brown comics. I can imagine that as a creator this is the work that really stands out because these people are really using the medium of comics as only a true craftsman can.

However I also think that these comics are not my favourite comics, just as the music that displays greatest musicianship is not my favourite music. I think that while the craft in one-man comics will usually exceed the craft in comics produced by teams (excepting the very rare instances mentioned above when teams gel completely) there is no reason why better crafted comics should always be more enjoyable. Most of the time when I'm reading comics I don't get pleasure from thinking "nice use of panel spacing and distorted perspective" i get pleasure from going "Nooooo! Don't let Suspension File Man die!" And that can come from many directions, not necessarily involving good cartooning craft...
 
 
some guy
12:10 / 29.01.03
I don't understand the mindset that collaboration = inferior. I think the group/solo dichotomy in the Beatles and the Smiths examples raised earlier are the norm rather than the exception. Some of my favorite comics come from one mind - Stray Bullets, anyone? But aside from a handful of admitted genii, I think in general it's foolish to expect artists to be able to write, or writers to be able to draw. Sometimes you get a great film from a writer/director, but it seems to me as though most of the great films are collaborations, too.

Humans are social animals, and comics/film/bands are unique art in that they are largely the product of social interaction between "creators" to produce the final result. I think there's a je ne sais quoi that can occur in a group setting that would never happen in isolation. Perhaps it's the collective editing, an unconscious Darwinism of ideas.

I think a mindset that would sacrifice Gaiman, Milligan, Moore and Morrison makes the medium that much poorer...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:13 / 29.01.03
I completely understand Moriarty's feelings about Alan Moore, mostly because I share them. The only thing Moore's ever done that I've really enjoyed have been Watchmen and to a far lesser degree, The Killing Joke; and just about everything else he's done has either done nothing for me or bored me half to death. I have great respect for the guy, and would never put him down, but his writing by and large holds no appeal for me.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:29 / 29.01.03
Well, nearly all film is collaborative, even if you've got a writer-director. The actors are always a major part of the collaboration, and if you're working with set/costume designers and cinematographers, it is that much more collaborative. It is very rare to find films which are not collaborative works.

One of the charms of comics is that it is one of the few places in pop entertainment and culture where a complete work coming from only one person is still relatively common. The overwhelming majority of my favorite comics writers also draw their own work, and the small handful of writers who don't (Morrison, Milligan) tend to have a recurring collaborators and seem to work very closely with their artists. Actually, thinking about it right now, I'd be really hard pressed to come up with another non-drawing comics writer who means much to me, I suppose Chris Claremont would have to go on the list for his 80s work.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:40 / 29.01.03
'V' bored you? Eh? Maybe ya gotta be British for V....

'From Hell' bored you? Really?

I know I'm threadrotting. I'm sorry.
 
 
some guy
12:48 / 29.01.03
Eh. I just think it's a false dichotomy to set up, unless someone can explain why the solo thing is better. And no, "primacy of vision" or whatever doesn't count, unless you can haul out good examples on both sides. I have a feeling this is going to boil down to two camps shouting back and forth: "Jimmy Corrigan!" ""From Hell!"
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:00 / 29.01.03
I think a mindset that would sacrifice Gaiman, Milligan, Moore and Morrison makes the medium that much poorer...

Did Neil Gaiman ever draw? I ask because I've seen Moore and Morrison's stuff - Moore's Maxwell the Magic Cat evolved into arguably the best strip cartoon ever written, but I don't think his style would have suited most any of the other stuff he's known for - but never anything of Gaiman's. Which is interesting, becasue I've always felt that what saved Gaiman's work, when it became bogged down with pointless whimsy, paper-thin characters and patchy knowledge of reference points, was his stroing visual imagination - his ability to imagine and communicate strong images and setups to his artists. Odd that he's the one most keen to be a "proper" writer...

Anyway, is anyone thinkign about the market split here? First up, it seems like very few projects that involve colouring are one-person. Is this just because colouring is a very distinct art that someone who might have learned penciling/inking could not or would not have mastered, or is it because of time, or just personal preference? Or am I missing out some people? Is it because the "cartoonist" as in strip cartoons, newspaper cartoons &c. is generally being printed in B&W, and the instinct continues into comics? Or is it a corollary of the fact that many one-person projects are also self-published or for small publishers (the last B&W thing I can recall Marvel doing is "Phantom Wings", an Archangel one-shot about a 7 years ago - even the execrable "War Machine" was digitally coloured, warn't it, but with shades of grey...anyone? Bueller?)

As for the question - I think I'm with Lawrence. It seems awfy unfair to leave people who can either sdraw or wrtie but not both out of the party when the mechanisms exist for hem to be partnered up. At the same time, I know that a fair bit of the stuff I like is by people who probably approximate more closely to the "cartoonist" ideal, often because they've come up through mini-comics and small press, i.e. they have not been modelling their stuff so closely on the stuff produced in the main by Marvel and DC - Adrian Tomine, Elizabeth Watasin, Evan Dorkin (a bit of an exception because he clearly read a *lot* of comics as a kid), Chynna Clugston-Major (another exception, as heavily influenced by manga, and thus a different ruleset)..but I'm interested when they write or illustrate for other people also...
 
 
DaveBCooper
13:09 / 29.01.03
Was the 'X-Men Underground' (or whatever it was called) by Brian Mahfood in black and white, Haus ? Think so, but not sure.
Anyway, I think you're right, there may well be a split in terms of colour in the work or not.

And as LLB says, it's a bit of a false dichotomy. In all honesty, do we help a struggling medium much by looking for divisions to draw, and sides to take ? I'm probably overstating that a bit, but ... well, you know.
 
 
some guy
13:15 / 29.01.03
do we help a struggling medium much by looking for divisions to draw, and sides to take?

It's just a silly question, the eventual answer to which doesn't change the fact that I enjoy Stray Bullets and X-Men equally (and for different reasons).
 
 
sleazenation
13:20 / 29.01.03
I'm not sure where this sudden investment in collaboration versus cartooning as the *best* way to make comics came from. Both approaches can make good comics and bad.

I do think the two approaches make for *different* comics. The distiction between the two approaches can fall into shades of grey - apples slowly becoming oranges if you will.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:22 / 29.01.03
Hey! I suggested that it was a false dichotomy first!

It should be remembered that a big part of the reason why so much non-corporate comics work is in black and white, and that's because color costs more to print. The folks who have the money and the talent to color their own work (Daniel Clowes, Chris Ware) are doing so, but for many it is still an aesthetic choice based on necessity.
 
 
sleazenation
13:29 / 29.01.03
But yes i think it would still be a mistake to over simplyfy the methods of producing comics to one where there is no distinction placed between collaborative works and single works.

One of the most pronounced areas where the difference is important is with propaganda comics - as Sue Coe points out, potentially comics can be created and reproduce and distriburted on the street (or these days, over the web) by a lone creator far more simply than almost any other medium (text may be easier but it is also less visual, and universal).
 
 
some guy
13:29 / 29.01.03
I'm not sure anyone is arguing for collaborative comics, only saying they're no better/worse than solo comics. And I'm not even sure they're different by shades of gray, to tell you the truth. What qualitative differences are there between the two? Specifically?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:31 / 29.01.03
Was the 'X-Men Underground' (or whatever it was called) by Brian Mahfood in black and white, Haus ? Think so, but not sure.

Generation X Underground, by Jim Mahfood. You're absolutely right. That was also both written and drawn by Mahfood, whereas "Phantom Wings" was written by Milligan and drawn by....John Paul Leon? It seems like GenX Underground, as well as an attempt to wring money out of the franchise, was also a tacit acknowledgement that, although Black and white writer/penciler/inkers may not generally be "hot" in the Wizard comics sense, they are "cool", a handy shorthand for "left-field and alternative", when in fact a lot of the self-published one-person stuff is by people who would like to be writing "Purgatori"...
 
 
Jack Fear
13:32 / 29.01.03
Haus: Gaiman draws a little. He drew a 24-hour comic about the life of the Emperor Heliogabalus, among other things: it was published in a limited edition. In his introduction, he says that he thumbnailed every issue of SANDMAN: "I drew these little comics, then stuck them in a desk drawer." His rendering is obviously untrained, but he's got a decent eye for composition.
 
 
Persephone
13:45 / 29.01.03
[rot]

OMG, apples slowly becoming oranges is a great name for a band. Or a blog. Or anything.

[/rot]
 
 
Jack Fear
13:48 / 29.01.03
And Warren Ellis has said that he occasionally thumbnails pages of PLANETARY, "to make sure I'm not asking John [Cassaday] to do anything impossible."

viz. the infamous story of Brian Hitch slaving for three days to render a three-word instruction in an AUTHORITY script: "The ships engage."
 
 
some guy
13:51 / 29.01.03
viz. the infamous story of Brian Hitch slaving for three days to render a three-word instruction in an AUTHORITY script: "The ships engage."

A day a word. Fair enough ... that appears to be Ellis' writing speed!
 
 
No star here laces
13:57 / 29.01.03
What qualitative differences are there between the two? Specifically?

As I kind of hinted at before, I do think that more attention is paid to visual storytelling in one-man comics - Stan Sakai and David Lapham being good examples. In one-man comics the story is more likely to be apparent without reading the text. Whereas separate writers and artists lead to more separation between story and visual. I find that character is better expressed through the manner of the character in one-man comics - the facial expressions and movement of say, Spanish Scott (stray bullets) versus the expression of character through speech in collaborative comics say, Guy Smith in X-Force...
 
 
some guy
14:02 / 29.01.03
the facial expressions and movement of say, Spanish Scott (stray bullets) versus the expression of character through speech in collaborative comics say, Guy Smith in X-Force...

Frank Quitely.

There are going to be so many exceptions to anything thrown out on either side that the discussion is pointless.
 
 
sleazenation
14:03 / 29.01.03
What is specifically different between the two approaches ?

Chiefly the mechanics, which can in turn influence the final form of a comic.

There is no need for a script for a cartoonist to work from. Some cartoonists write scripts anyway in some sort of abbreviated form (cf Bryan Talbot who wrote the script for Heart of Empire before starting drawing it... not sure if this is his usual working method tho.), others dispense with scripts entirely (cf. Dave Sim who stated that his script for spawn 10 was the first script he'd written for quite a while after starting cerebus).

There is not necessarily any external re-interpretation required.
A comic artist who reads a script has to interpret that script and put it onto paper (cf Grant Morrison’s Invisible v3.2 where Ashley woods failed to sufficiently interpret morrison’s script) ( this leaves aside any additional problems of external editors, inkers colorists et al.). A cartoonist does not have this problem.

A cartoonist is not necessarily reliant on anyone else to create his comic.
A crucial one this, which slightly holds to the truism that you never work for anyone else harder than you work for yourself. Drawing a comic is hard work and can require a longer amount of time and commitment on the part of an artist (who may or may not be comitted to a story to the same level that the writer is). Alan Moore’s Big Numbers fell down on the creative differences between Alan Moore and Bill sienkwitz (SP!)- with Alan Moore rejecting bits of perfectly usable artwork on the grounds that it didn’t quite look like the reference photo he’d sent. Its easier for an artist and writer to be equally comitted to a project when they lve in the same head.

There is an argument to be made that a good comic artist can improve a script, lend it a more lyrical visual flow than the writer could ever dream. Which again further reinforces a division between writer and artist.

I realise that most of these could be interpreted as coming down to "primacy of vision" but hope I have proviided enough (well, some) examples to explain some of the differences that can arise from the two approaches.
 
 
sleazenation
14:11 / 29.01.03
Originally posted by LLB
the facial expressions and movement of say, Spanish Scott (stray bullets) versus the expression of character through speech in collaborative comics say, Guy Smith in X-Force...

Frank Quitely.

There are going to be so many exceptions to anything thrown out on either side that the discussion is pointless.


Its only a pointless discussion if you want to prove a point one way or another. As I expressed above I think the two different approaches can have a different effects and it would be a mistake to oversimplify the differences between the working practices.
 
 
some guy
14:24 / 29.01.03
Not buying it. For every specific solo work, you can hold up a collaborative work that's as good or better. Your argument for the superiority of cartoonists is that they don't need a script?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:25 / 29.01.03
There is not necessarily any external re-interpretation required.
A comic artist who reads a script has to interpret that script and put it onto paper (cf Grant Morrison’s Invisible v3.2 where Ashley woods failed to sufficiently interpret morrison’s script) ( this leaves aside any additional problems of external editors, inkers colorists et al.). A cartoonist does not have this problem.


Well, yes and no. The cartoonist has to deal with their own limitations, they have to tailor their writing to their strengths and weaknesses as an illustrator. A writer who works with illustrators has a lot more leeway, they can find an artist who can be appropriate for their different projects.
 
 
sleazenation
14:29 / 29.01.03
Er LLB at what point did i say either way was better? (asuming of course you are talking to me)

Its not about either approach being *better* but about being *subtly but significantly different* in my veiw.
 
 
sleazenation
14:38 / 29.01.03
Flux yes i agree its swings and rounderbouts - a cartoonist who isn't quite so sure of his abilities will reinterpret his idea *internally* till he can create as close to the desired effect as he can get at his skill level.

It is equally possible that the artist creates an effect that acoumplishes the task far more successfully than the writer could have dreamed, but at least a writer artist would be better placed to know just what he wants to trade off between his idea and the artists abilities before he produces a single line.
 
 
some guy
14:42 / 29.01.03
Sleaze - I was reading a value judgement into your analysis. Sorry. I accept that the mechanics of construction are different (e.g. no script) but what I'm asking for is a qualitative difference in end result. Can you distinguish a comic by a cartoonist or a collaborative team without the credits page? I would argue no.
 
 
sleazenation
15:29 / 29.01.03
Outside of some general indecators (the publisher - use of color) maybe - but only in the same way that you can see a difference between Star Trek the next generation and babylon 5. Otherwise probably not. But yes i think such distinctions require at least a critical audience - if not one well versed in the mechanics of making a work of art...
 
 
some guy
15:39 / 29.01.03
But yes i think such distinctions require at least a critical audience - if not one well versed in the mechanics of making a work of art...

Possibly - but what would you look for specifically? I can't think of anything that couldn't also be chalked up to creative synergies.
 
  

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