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Immaturity and Homosexuality

 
 
Shortfatdyke
07:24 / 24.01.03
Clive Bromhall, a natural history expert, has recently published a book called The Eternal Child. I’ve read a summary of it, in an article entitled How Women Are Making Men Gay, and it begins by condemning women who go for ‘prettier’ men such as David Beckham and Brad Pitt, instead of the more ‘traditional macho male’. Women, Bromhall says, are encouraging men to be effeminate (bear in mind Beckham is well known not just for being pretty but for not using his wife as a punch bag or shagging around), and he thinks this is a Bad Thing. The future of the human race is in question because of this; women are making men ‘regress to infancy‘, and part of this is reflected in homosexuality. According to Bromhall, we all go through a ‘phase’ of wanting to spend time only with our own gender, then some young men (women are painted out of the picture at this point) are attracted to those of the same sex. This is immature, and most grow out of it to become, ‘mature heterosexuals’. A growing number, however, are not growing up. ‘Homosexuals - like children - are renowned as among the most exuberant, imaginative, sensitive and eternally youthful members of society.’ He cites Graham Norton as ‘illustrating this to perfection’.

As I say, women’s sexuality is barely touched upon: lesbian don’t exist, bi women and men and the huge area that human sexuality covers doesn’t get a look in. Are pesky fence sitters just immature sometimes then? Do dykes not have a real sexuality, or does it not matter, because a ‘mature heterosexual’ will have babies with one if he wants to? Heterosexual women do finally get a mention: those delaying having children are good examples of the immaturity of the human race.

I read the article, I have no wish to give this man my money by buying his book - I’m torn between wondering whether he hates women more than he hates gay men. But is this a new theory, or have some of you heard it all before? Is it very popular? Is it dangerous, or just the ranting of a few right wingers?
 
 
The Natural Way
07:39 / 24.01.03
What was the article in?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:10 / 24.01.03
It's certainly not a new theory. The idea that homosexuality is a developmental disorder related to immaturity has been around for some time. Not sure, but I think it grew out of the American post-Freudian school (Rado, Berger, etc.) Psychoanalytic literature of the 1940s onwards is full of this sort of stuff.
This sort of revisionist dogma seems to be very popular with the Christian right and so-called 'reparative therapy'which is aimed at 'curing' homosexuality and keeping the medical model alive and kicking.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:08 / 24.01.03
"The future of the human race" is in danger? Right. I don't think you need worry yourself too much about ravings like this, sfd.

The pseudo scientific slant is laughable and wouldn't hold up to a moment's analysis. Its hardly worth spending time over.
 
 
illmatic
09:14 / 24.01.03
It's also (sadly) a popular idea with post-Reichian psycho-analysts adn Reich himself was pretty down on homosexuality himself. I have a couple of books by Alexander Lowen next on my reading list -I've skim read the chapters on homosexuality and he seems to view it the same way. May come back to this thread when I've read them.
 
 
Bill Posters
09:48 / 24.01.03
What was the article in?

I read it in the Daily Hate Mail. The usual sickening shite and as Lurid said, it's preposterous. It's also a worryingly popular way of thinking, though... let's face it, that article will have been read more than this thread.

But is this a new theory, or have some of you heard it all before?

I think it's a new version of a very old thesis.
 
 
--
12:54 / 24.01.03
well, Pat Buchanan did once say that he viewed gays lesbians (and certain artists) as infantile, or something to that effect.

Then again, does anyone take anything Pat Buchanan says seriously?
 
 
The Natural Way
13:29 / 24.01.03
I can just picture a whole bunch of my fellow commuters nodding their heads along with this drivel.

"Ohhh....it MUST be true it reinforces all my prejudices and he's a NATURAL HISTORY PROFESSOR!"

Arrrgh! Psuedo-scientific drivel!

How I fucking HATE the Daily Mail. Urrgh..it's just the devil, isn't it?
 
 
Saveloy
13:51 / 24.01.03
"Homosexuals - like children - are renowned as among the most exuberant, imaginative, sensitive and eternally youthful members of society.™ "

So.... children are renowned for being eternally youthful? "I love children, they're so childlike; and they never let their age stop them having a good time!" Sorry, cheap shot, but f..king Nora.


"The future of the human race is in question because of this; women are making men ˜regress to infancy˜"

I know this is giving the thing more time than it deserves, but I am curious - does he explain what a regression to infancy would entail, and how it would threaten our future? I mean, what does he actually envision happening - men being too immature to breed? Too childish to collect the dustbins and run the trains on time? 48 yr olds running around in nappies with lip-ons?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
14:16 / 24.01.03
I think the theory is that a) men will indeed be too immature to breed and b) women are somehow betraying the natural order of things by finding 'effeminate', or non macho men, attractive.

I was both laughing and shouting while I was reading the article. I understand that the belief that homosexuality is some kind of disorder is not new, but I was interested in the additional thing of women playing their part.

And I did wonder about the author, if he was well regarded. To be honest, it didn't worry me so much as made me wonder whether he hated women or homosexuals more, although if there was a big 'scientific' movement agreeing with this, then I hadn't heard about it but thought I should find out. And none of the gay men I've ever known have been in the least like Graham Norton!
 
 
Jack Fear
14:24 / 24.01.03
Personally, I doubt that even Graham Norton is in the least like Graham Norton, but that's neither here nor there.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
15:47 / 24.01.03
Apparently Graham Norton is just like Graham Norton. I was told this by a lesbian friend who is also just like Graham Norton and met him in a bar in Cape Town, where apparently he has a second home.

I wonder at the definition of maturity here. If his indicator of maturity is that you don't breed then his argument is fairly cyclical. If it's that gay men are insufficiently neolithic in their social attitudes and behaviour within relationships then I'd like to see his data on the healthy, wholesome humanity with a future which pre-existed David Beckham.

It's not research, it's fluff. Designed to appeal to the Iron John and Bell Curve market and make a quick buck out of controversy. Either way, I feel moved to give him a very mature bunch of fives, in my butch way, if I ever bump into him. And I'm thinking only of the future of our species when I say that.
 
 
Bill Posters
15:47 / 24.01.03
And I did wonder about the author, if he was well regarded.

I've just done a search on various engines and can find 2, yes that's a whole 2, things by him - he directed a National Geographic film, and has taken some photos which were published. As far as I can see, he is not recognised as by the academic 'community' in the sense of a. having any academic publications whatsoever or b. having ever had an academic job! I can't even establish whether he's even got a PhD, but it looks unlikely. So "natural history expert" he would appear most certainly not to be.

Let's put 2 and 2 together: he can't / won't get a job, and he's writing crap for the pop market and advertising- sorry, I mean, summarizing - it in the Daily Mail. The sum of that says shitwit-popscience-hack-out-to-make-money-by-cashing-in-on-homophobia in hundred foot high neon letters, to me at any rate.
 
 
telyn
18:21 / 24.01.03
Even if he did have a strong academic background in natural history, how does that relate to behavioural patterns of women affecting men? Surely those areas are rather too far apart for even the most gifted academic to stretch without lengthy and substantial research, of which there should be evidence.

I completely disagree with this man and he makes me very angry.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
21:41 / 24.01.03
Rotting the thread here, mea maxima culpa, but I see the full title of Bromhall's book is The Eternal Child An Explosive New
Theory of Human Origins and Behaviour
. Bit of hubris there surely? Can't help but feel a serious piece of scientific work would have been less self-aggrandisingly titled. I suppose he got the idea from Darwin's The Absolutely Fabulous Origin of Species, Freud's The Fucking Amazing Interpretation of Dreams and Hawking's A Brief but It'll Make You Come in Your Pants History of Time.
 
 
Logos
23:43 / 26.01.03
Don't forget Newton's Principia Fantastica
 
 
Bill Posters
12:46 / 08.02.03
If it's that gay men are insufficiently neolithic in their social attitudes and behaviour within relationships then I'd like to see his data on the healthy, wholesome humanity with a future which pre-existed David Beckham.

Nah, actually I saw a massive gang of pissed-up, tooled-up gay men str8-bashing just the other night.

Ahem, pardon my rottage. Seriously, I couldn't agree more. I have heard a claim that male gay relationships last longer on average than het ones, so if he's arguing that monogamy is 'natural' (and people like him usualy do), then I'd like to see how he deals with that fact. (If it is a fact, of course.)
 
 
gingerbop
15:09 / 08.02.03
hmmm... very odd theory. Its got a few flaws though. It says they regress to the stage when they wanted to spend time with only people of the same sex. Well anyone who knows any1 whos gay will know they spend half their time talkin to wifies! I dont even believe there IS a stage in every1s lives where they only want to be with people of the same sex, and if there is, i dont think i went thru it. I dont think the guy has a clue what he's talkin about, and im sure no1 called him an "expert" other than himself.
 
 
Ganesh
11:10 / 09.02.03
Two interesting personal examples of 'homosexual immaturity' within the last week:

Firstly, our own self-styled "intelectual collective", InnerCircle urges me to "ginger grow up" - presumably because it's immature of me to keep harping on about his use of 'ginger beer = queer' (which is clearly a world away from nasty ol' Eminem's homophobia). Why don't I just stop being so whiney and childish, hmm?

Ever more ironically, a hardback copy of Clive Bromhall's pumping powerhouse of an Explosive New Theory, 'The Eternal Child' has dropped through our letter-box, with an attached Post-it from, would you believe, my mother:

"Read an extract from this in a recent Sunday supplement so sent to Amazon for it. Just arrived and had you two boys first in mind to read it... Enjoy (??) Mum XX"

Top o' the world, Ma.
 
 
Bill Posters
11:49 / 09.02.03
Possibly you could tell you mother in no uncertain terms that, given that you're only like, a fucking doctor for fuck's sake, you might know just a little teeny weeny more science than her?

Posssibly you could explain to innercircle that if he was a real cockney as opposed to a pathetic little mockney he'd know you are not a 'ginger', you are a 'duke'. It hasn't been 'ginger' for years; no one drinks ginger beer since the cola empires took over the world of soft drinks years ago. Either that or tell the little berkshire to eff off.
 
 
alas
14:31 / 09.02.03
One way that powerful groups justify their power is by painting their others as "immature" childlike, and/or insufficiently developed, and therefore in need of control by the "mature" ones. Non-western cultures have long been seen as "primitive" in Western ethnography. Slavery was known as a "patriarchal institution" by pro-slavery activists because it naturalized the power of Euroamerican slaveholder over the "childlike," enslaved Africanamericans--justification through linking to the naturalized patriarchal family structure. "Women and children" get lumped in the same sinking boat for the same reasons, and for this reason, e.g., women are typically seen (as least in my country) as less capable of making serious decisions about serious matters. Hence, FAIR (fairness and accuracy in reporting) reported a few months ago that 92% of sources interviewed on the mainstream US news shows are--ta da--white men. When women are interviewed, it's almost never as experts in a field but as a "person on the street."

So this article strikes me as part and parcel of that whole system. It would be laughable if it weren't everywhere. Today's NYTimes is full of references to the French as basically spoiled children who tweak the nose of the US while basking in our military support (I'm not making this up--there were 3 cartoons and an opinion article by Thomas Friedman stating this view in quite bald terms. This from a nation whose current president apparently said that the problem with the French is they have no word for "entrepreneur.")

Why? Because the French don't agree with with our foreign policy, of course. They must be children.

There's a funny little article on how Straights can change and become happy satisfied (adults) like gay people at:
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20010528&s=kim20010517 .

(Sorry--couldn't remember html code and my reminder sheet's at my other computer--so no real link, there. If a moderater wants to make it a link, feel free.)

alas.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
18:28 / 09.02.03
Thanks for that, alas. Good article, both the fair accounting of Spitzer's work and the shrewd, satirical counterpoint. All those poor gays and straights, unable to stop whining and just bloody adapt.

Have html'ed it for you: here.
 
  
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