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Affectations

 
  

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Goodness Gracious Meme
11:40 / 14.03.03
*None* of my gay friends (and some of my best friends are gay, you know) are any good at choosing curtains.

I feel cheated.

Or alternatively there might be something useful to behad by ignoring the idea that certain groups have affectations and others don't, and thinking abour how conscious affectation, with purpose, whether satirical/dimnuitive/strategic, evolves into 'naturalised' behaviour... where performance becomes performativity, I guess?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:55 / 14.03.03
Accents and dialects? Imitation in order to please, eventually becoming the standard mode of speech. Fashion? Or possibly, to get everyone *really* het up, anti-authority stances and the anti-war movement as fashion statement first, social trend second.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:55 / 17.03.03
Now *that's* an interesting question - apart from anything else it begs the question of at what point one becomes *qualified*. When can one with rectitude express viewpoints either in favour of or against the war? at what level of knowledge or proficiency can one identify homosexuals? How much do you have to know about homosexuality to be a homosexual, and not just someone who has sex with people of the same sex?

On a tangent - a friend was recently talking to me about last night's (UK terrestrial TV) documentary on an olympic ice skater (or possibly ice dancer - who knows with those crazy guys) who was tormented by accusations and innuendos of homosexuality. He (the friend) suggested that, sad as this may be, he died ten years ago, and he saw no reason to take up an hour of Sunday evening television.

To which my reply was essentially "Dude, they make documentaries about Montgomery and stick them on on Sunday evenings, and he died ages ago." (Needless to say, I had the last laugh. Needles to say, I took some drugs)

Point being, he believed that it was affected of Channel 4 to devote so much time to a dead gay ice dancer on a Sunday evening. i would suggest that his insistence that this was an affectation, given the difficulty of finding anything these days that there *isn't* a documentary about, was a deeply ingrained piece of heterosexual (or more precisely probably heterosocial or good ol' heteronormative) affectation...
 
 
Ganesh
20:21 / 01.10.03
Just had to revive this old thread after reading J. Michael Bailey's 'The Man Who Would Be Queen: The Science Of Gender-Bending And Transsexualism'. Although essentially a (slightly overstated but readable and well-summarised) review of the research literature on the origins of gender dysphoria (and the politics surrounding the diagnosis itself), a good third of the book is devoted to discussion of the very phenomena we've been talking about in this thread.

Loading his text with pre-emptive disclaimers (science can only confirm or refute stereotypes on average, not all gay men are alike and not all straight men are alike, etc., etc.), Bailey nonetheless manages to apply the scientific method fairly convincingly to some of the cliches of gender and sexuality, and challenges some old assumptions.

He cites the work of the social psychologist Richard Lippa, and repeats some of his experiments. Lippa studied occupational and recreational interests and found that, on many scales, gay men were midway between men and women in terms of sex-typed interests (conjuring up the 1950s spectre of the 'third sex') and that this appears to be consistent across several cultures.

The concept of the 'gay accent' (what's referred to as the sssibilant "lisp" above) is also studied:

"We recruited homosexual men and women to the lab to provide several types of data. We got approximately 30 from each group; the relevant groups here are gay and heterosexual men. The relevant data, for now, consisted of short speech samples. Every subject read the Harvard Sentences, a collection of sentences that are interesting to linguists because they contain all the phonemes (elemental sounds) of the English language. Some example sentences include:

"It's easy to tell the depth of a well.
Four hours of steady work faced us.
Help the woman get back to her feet.
The soft cushion broke the man's fall.

"Subjects read the sentences into a microphone connected to a computer, which stored the recordings. Next, we recruited an entirely different sample of homosexual and heterosexual men and women to listen to the four sentences above. This new sample (Listeners) rated each person in the first sample (Speakers) on a scale of 1 (very heterosexual sounding) to 7 (very gay sounding)."


Basically, Bailey found that only 10% of the heterosexual men were rated above 4, while 75% of the gay men were - suggesting that, although it's difficult to define a 'gay accent', we're generally good at identifying that if a man sounds gay he probably is. One qualifier being that 25% of gay men have speech patterns well within the 'straight' range. Furthermore, there was twice as much variation among the gay speakers as in the straight speakers.

Bailey went on to replicate Nalini Ambady's 1999 study suggesting that gay men move differently. He videotaped 10-second clips of the same sample of gay and straight people standing, sitting, etc. and used a computer to remove all static information (clothing, hairstyle, etc.) and produce a gender-neutral 'outline-only' image. Raters used an established scale to assess 'masculine' and 'feminine' movements.

The results were similar to the 'gay accent' study in that there were significant differences observed between gay and straight men, and that gay men exhibited a much greater degree of variation. Gay men scored in the direction of heterosexual women but were much closer to heterosexual men (ie. there was more difference between male and female than between straight men and gay men).

So... although the jury's out on whether the recognisable 'gay accent' is feminine, it could be concluded that the average gay man moves in a more feminine way than the average straight man.

The chapter on 'Gay Masculinity' looks at gay male sexual behaviours and concludes that, in this respect, gay men are much more similar to straight men than to straight women - but that's probably straying outwith the remit of this thread.

It can be argued that Bailey's sample sizes are on the small side, and he doesn't provide detailed accounts of his methodology - but these are still intriguing results, particularly following on from the earlier studies which inspired them. Do they answer any of Foust's original questions?

Well, it would seem that there certainly are observable (and statistically significant) differences in the way (on average) gay and straight men talk and move, and in the careers and recreations they choose. It's also true that gay men exhibit around twice as much variation in their behaviours - which possibly lends weight to my own assertion that attempting to confine my own behaviours to the 'straight' end of the spectrum was pretty stressful.

Are these behaviours "affectations"? Difficult to say, as the question strikes at the heart of the various theories of 'nature/nurture' with regard to human sexuality - and there's a whole separate thread in this.

It's a good book, though. Recommended.
 
 
at the scarwash
01:12 / 19.11.03
I found this to be a rather interesting thread, but something that was not really addressed was, where do these conventions come from? The hetero stereotype of the couch sitting, lite beer drinking, beef eating, sports watching Ugly American is certainly as non-existant as the paisley-silk ascott wearing interior designer quoting Catullus, creme de menthe glath in one hand, the other dangling limply from hith writht. Both gay and het persons can have certain behavioral markers which they choose to use to advertise themselves, or subconsciously assume to assert identity. But who is the Ur-Queen, or the Ur-Al Bundy?
 
 
i
13:38 / 05.04.04
OK, so crushing a beer can on your forehead is as much of an affectation as gay limp writhtedneth or feminine hair tossing and yeah affectations such as these serve to identify your association with/disassociation from certain social/sexual groups. The thing I don't get is why do stereotypical homosexual mannerisms appear to so closely mirror existing gender opposite heterosexual ones? What does the gay dude gain from an association with straight women? Distance from standard heterosexual male stereotype? Ability to place yourself socially somewhere on the spectrum of sexuality via the use of better established sociosexual body language? I dunno.

Homosexuals are human. Fact. and as such are, I guess, limited to the same options of human expression as straight peeps. Is the idea that gay men stereotypically have effeminate mannerisms really the case? Because heterosexuality is so b/w, it would be hard to identify mannerisms which didn't have gender specific associations while still keeping within the range of 'normal' human behaviour. I guess the gay nation could affect some pretty outlandish mannerisms in order to identify/advertise their diferent sexual preference but these would also place them outside of a wider society which it might be nice to be a part of.

Probably all off topic and as a newbie I sit here and wait to be shat on.
 
 
Ex
14:09 / 05.04.04
The thing I don't get is why do stereotypical homosexual mannerisms appear to so closely mirror existing gender opposite heterosexual ones? What does the gay dude gain from an association with straight women?

I'm torn on this one. Half of me is saying, well, that's how gender/sex works - wanting to have sex with men is an enormous chunk of what it means to be feminine. And vice versa. Hence Monique Wittig's assertion that if you're a lesbian, you're not a woman (a great theory soundbite).
It would perhaps be slightly insane if, in a culture massively organised around sexuality, those who shagged blokes never displayed the signifiers of 'women' (and I'm not qualifying that with 'straight women' because under this model, 'woman' pretty much means 'has sex with men').

On the other hand, I don't think gender's that much a closed system, and obviously there are other ways of imagining, organising and performing same-sex desire (and gender), which can be demonstrated by looking at other subcultures (anyone mentioned bears yet?) and periods (skipping past Wilde, as mentioned, we also get Walt Whitman who provides a focal point for other manly man-loving men. Forster's Maurice is terribly unartistic and straight-acting - although Forster did invent him as a kind of anti-Forster, so that may be cheating).

And the other other half of my other half is thinking - do they (closely mirror existing gender)? I can think of a lot of things that trip my gaydar on blokes which aren't feminine or effeminate or in any way 'like women'. I suppose that if one tried, one could interpret a trad urbangay hobby such as down the cultivation of bigger arm muscles (manual labour, male body shape) as a fondness for physical display and sexual showing off (feminine! Girly!) but it takes a bit of jiggling.

In a Gay Mecca(TM) like my town, a lot comes down to subcultural communciation, which is working on more subtle clues and pointers than "He walks like a girl! Gabbagabba one of us!". Hollinghurst in The Swimming Pool Library talks about one brand of aftershave being taken up by gay blokes until it becomes an absolute sure-fire element of gaydar - but not because it, for example, smells all girly - rather because of accumulated use in shared social spaces.

And that just brings up the fact that within a culture, your self-presentation is always produced through communication, which is endlessly complicated by who you're trying to communicate with and what symbols they're going to recognise. I don't know if that helps. It's just bobbing around in my mind in this thread. I don't think personal presentation is ever entirely self-conscious self-promotion (what does the gay dude gain...) or totally the eruption of an inner self.

So basically, if I'm butch in a forest and nobody's listening...

Good thread to revive, though.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:26 / 05.04.04
There's also a case to be made for writing a list of 'gay affectations' and then questioning whether they are actual things that women actually do, I don't think I've noticed any of the women I know to be particularly weak in the wrist area, for example.
 
 
not ready yet
21:12 / 06.04.04
There's a cultural historian called Tim Edwards who suggests that the stereotype of homosexual affectations stems from the desire to reject a traditional image of masculinity - as has been observed. He also suggests that at a similar time, gay culture developed a masculinist identity - a response to the other binary pole, whereby gay identity is articulated through images of uber-manliness (moustaches, motorbikes, leather and other similar iconography). He's writing about 60's and 70's America but suggests a linkage with earlier forms of gay culture. For him, it just became more apparent during 'first wave' political movements.

For me, this can lead to the kind of analysis where public subjectivity is based on recognised codes of behaviour or affectations. Heterosexual behaviours are not 'original', 'neutral' or 'natural' but appear as though they are because they are culturally transparent. By that I mean that they are taken to be definitive. Homosexual affectations (of all kinds) are then these 'natural' signifiers of gender role made opaque through reversal or exaggeration. It helps explain why camp is celebrated by some and reviled by others, being both a return to stereotypes of gender and a potentially radical reformulation of those roles. There's also the problem with gay men redefining effeminacy - where does this leave the people who are supposed to be 'naturally' feminine?

I like the idea of comparing a list of effeminate behaviours with things that women actually do - I suspect we might come up with a list of parodies of things that some women do.

Hmm.
 
 
the Fool
04:34 / 07.04.04
Following on from something Stevie mentioned. The whole 'bear' thing within the gay subculture seems to counter all the 'stereotypical homosexual affectations' so far mentioned. A reversal. Big fat hairy men. Cultural masculinity sexualised. Truck drivers, beards, uberblokiness... I have a running joke with a friend about doing a show called 'Bear eye for the queer guy' where a twink queen is forcefed fatty food, is prevented from shaving and has body hair implanted on his chest and back. Surprisingly similar to the whole 'straight' parody versions of 'queer eye'... except for the body hair bit... mmm... body hair...

I'm not sure exactly what I'm saying here. Just thought the bear thing was an interesting counterpoint to the usual heterosexual image of the stereotypical homosexual. I know I didn't know bears exisited before coming out.
 
 
i
08:24 / 07.04.04
I don't know how prevalent the 'bear' phenomenon is but could it be that the stereotypical mincing queen is as much in opposition to uber masculine homosexuals as heterosexual men? An attempt to introduce some kind of polarity into homosexual relations - a sub/dom signifier as per stereotypical het. relationships? Although gay sexual relations are same gender, by virtue of the nature of the sex itself, isn't the same kind of sub/dom, give/take dynamic often present? I would guess that in a situation where an assumption of gender based sexual preference is absent, some kind of additional signifier would be necessary.
 
 
Ex
10:27 / 07.04.04
Attitude magazine had an interesting article recently about gay "scally" culture (thoughtfully scanned in here).
They interview Fierce Girl (a popular beat combo) and Fierce Girl are quite, well, fierce about their sexual preferences.
They pull out an argument of incredible longevity (eg. 1973, Rubyfruit Jungle): "If I wanted to go with someone camp or feminine then I'd shag a bird, know'damean? I'm gay cos I fancy men. Boys [...] That ain't pretending to be straight."

It's fascinating; what they think of as "manly" is such a specific set of gendered things, including jewellery ("Reebok lassics and a bit of gold"). How recently and in what circles does gold jeweller say "manly"?
Then there's a whole heap of class issues involved - realmen are part of working-class culture, and middle-class culture is effeminate. Which made me think again about how many "homosexual affectations" are actually class markers (a pride in pop-psychological emotional literacy and hair products, for example).
And then there is a big fight over authenticity - they accuse camp men of acting and "putting it on" - affected behaviour - but they'd clearly been accused of that themselves in relation to their masculinity, and were throwing it back ("I ain't acting. I'm being myself"). They seem certain that masculine habits are natural and authentic to men, and thus gay men are more authentically attracted to manly men ("I dress normal").

Anyway, I can reccomend the article, it neatly lays out a lot of things this thread's touched on.
 
 
the Fool
22:11 / 07.04.04
I don't know how prevalent the 'bear' phenomenon is but could it be that the stereotypical mincing queen is as much in opposition to uber masculine homosexuals as heterosexual men?

I think it actually happened the other way round. The bear phenomenon (and the clone thing before it) appeared in opposition to the mincing queen stereotype. In me home town of melbourne, it's sort of divided the gay community in a weird way. Northside (north of the yarra, traditionally more working class) has become 'bear' territory, while southside (traditionally more wealth) has become twink/pretty boy/gym nazi territory. And the two camps generally dislike each other. As generalisations northside sees southside as superficial, guady, overly camp and arrogant, southside sees northside as fat, ugly dope smokers.

An attempt to introduce some kind of polarity into homosexual relations - a sub/dom signifier as per stereotypical het. relationships? Although gay sexual relations are same gender, by virtue of the nature of the sex itself, isn't the same kind of sub/dom, give/take dynamic often present? I would guess that in a situation where an assumption of gender based sexual preference is absent, some kind of additional signifier would be necessary.

That would suggest that twink/bear relationships were the norm. Which they are not. There is the top/bottom dynamic, but there often isn't a signifier of this. Also as mentioned in the previous post there is the whole attitude of 'If I had wanted to shag a girl then I'd be straight'. Bears will usually go for other bears (exceptions always exist) and the same goes for lads on the southside.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:15 / 25.07.04
Don't all social groups have identifying behaviours? And doesn't it make more sense to think of homosexuals as a whole SHITLOAD of social groups, rather than just one, any or all of which could have fairly substantial crossovers with ANY other social group at all? We do with heterosexuals, and there are certain behaviours common to certain subgroups of THEM.
The "camp" thing is probably just more noticeable because of its very nature. If something's "camp" or "over the top" you're gonna notice it rather than, say, common nervous tics among "the shy" (if shy people don't mind me lumping them all together as one entity. Ah fuck it. What're they gonna do?).
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:52 / 27.07.04
(Just as a note to Ganesh recommending The Man Who Would Be Queen upthread, it's been fairly comprehensively trashed here. It seems a naughty boy lied in his research...)
 
 
Ganesh
16:39 / 27.07.04
Oh, I'm well aware of the controvery around Bailey and, by extension, Blanchard - but I'm not sure the points he made have necessarily been "comprehensively trashed". I think it's fair enough to suppose his studies are "compromised" by the lying/'artistic license' employed in writing about the subject in a 'pop psychology' (as opposed to fully methodologically annotated) manner - but I can't see that this necessarily rebutts the ideas he proposes. I'm aware, for example, of differences in terms of post-operative outcome between male-to-female TSs who start from a homosexual male beginning, and those who start from a heterosexual male beginning - suggesting the existence of two loose groupings, or poles.

On the other hand, there are some glaring omissions, in terms of research - such as the findings on male sexual abuse (men who've been sexually abused in childhood are seven or eight times more likely, later, so label themselves homosexual or bisexual). Bailey does have a tendency to minimise this sort of thing, or ignore possible social-constructionist interpretations.

As I said when I initially recommended The Man Who Would Be Queen, he does overstate his case. It's worth noting, however, that it's his controversial views on transsexuals which have attracted the most vitriol; his findings on male homosexuality (those parts most relevant to this particular thread) are much more generally accepted by fellow academics and gay community alike.

I agree that his position is overly essentialist (albeit less so than that of LaVey, etc.) and he's sacrificed a degree of precision for readability. I'd still thoroughly recommend the book, but probably more as an admittedly partial generator of hypotheses than as a scientifically-reference authority.
 
 
grant
17:54 / 13.10.04
From plasticbag.org, here's an article from the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America called The influence of sexual orientation on vowel production.

The abstract is interesting:

Vowel production in gay, lesbian, bisexual (GLB), and heterosexual speakers was examined. Differences in the acoustic characteristics of vowels were found as a function of sexual orientation. Lesbian and bisexual women produced less fronted /u/ and // than heterosexual women. Gay men produced a more expanded vowel space than heterosexual men. However, the vowels of GLB speakers were not generally shifted toward vowel patterns typical of the opposite sex. These results are inconsistent with the conjecture that innate biological factors have a broadly feminizing influence on the speech of gay men and a broadly masculinizing influence on the speech of lesbian/bisexual women. They are consistent with the idea that innate biological factors influence GLB speech patterns indirectly by causing selective adoption of certain speech patterns characteristic of the opposite sex.

In other words, "gay talk" isn't the same as "opposite sex talk," and may point towards a biological foundation for homosexuality.
 
 
King of Town
19:44 / 19.10.04
Interesting thread. I especially liked the analogy of hooking up a hamster to the computer via USB. As an example of how hard it can be to make accurate generalizations, I'll point to (who else?) myself. Growing up, I was labeled gay for many reasons, though at the time it never occurred to me to wonder whether I was. I knew I wasn't. Later I saw that many of my behaviors and tastes were indeed things that seem more common among gays and even I could appreciate the beauty of men, but that never carried over into any desire to have sexual relationships of any kind with another man. I've even thought deeply about whether I was just repressing myself, and my answer is simply, no. If I wanted men, I'm sure I could have them without losing my family or friends, but I still like girls only. I'm just a straight guy with an open mind and broad horizons.
 
 
Ganesh
20:32 / 19.10.04
In other words, "gay talk" isn't the same as "opposite sex talk," and may point towards a biological foundation for homosexuality.

Well, quite - or, at least, a strong biological component in at least some individuals' homosexuality.

This backs up Bailey's findings (and, while I agree with many of the criticisms of Bailey's methodology, it's worth pointing out that the earlier studies, on homosexuality rather than transsexualism, are relatively sound). If I recall The Man Who Would Be Queen correctly, the speech patterns of gay men were different from those of straight men and straight women, having more in common with the former, but showing much more variability.
 
 
grant
17:23 / 22.10.04
Wait, are you saying "gay talk" is more plastic than straight speech? Like, it moves around more?
 
 
Ganesh
18:14 / 22.10.04
No, I'm saying gay males, as a population, have a wider range of 'talk' than either straight men or women. That's if I'm remembering Bailey correctly.
 
 
grant
17:22 / 26.10.04
I think you're answering affirmatively to what I was asking murkily -- that the patterns of speech within a homosexual population varies more that patterns of speech in a heterosexual population.

Except I was thinking in terms of individuals moreso than populations -- like, the average member of a homosexual population would have more variance in speech patterns. Which isn't right.

OK. I'm caught up now, I think.
 
 
Ganesh
20:21 / 26.10.04
Yeah, that's pretty much it: plasticity across populations. Like with Yazz.
 
  

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