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innercircle
03:41 / 18.01.03
Islam has a progressive tradition too

Most western views of Muslims are founded on ignorance
Hamza Yusuf Wednesday June 19, 2002

When a Welsh resistance leader was captured and brought before the emperor in Rome, he said: "Because you desire to conquer the world, it does not necessarily follow that the world desires to be conquered by you." Today one could offer an echo of this sentiment to western liberals: "Because you wish your values to prevail throughout the world, it does not always follow that the world wishes to adopt them." The imperial voice is based on ignorance of the rich traditions of other civilisations, and on an undue optimism about what the west is doing to the world politically, economically and environmentally.

The entrenched beliefs many westerners profess about Islam often reveal more about the west than they do about Islam or Muslims. The Ottomans were history's longest-lasting major dynasty; their durability must have had some relation to their ability to rule a multi-faith empire at a time when Europe was busily hanging, drawing and quartering different varieties of Christian believer.
Today Islam is said to be less, not more, tolerant than the west, and we need to ask which, precisely, are the "western" values with which Islam is so incompatible? Some believe Islam's attitude towards women is the source of the Muslim "problem". Westerners need to look to their own attitudes here and recognise that only very recently have patriarchal structures begun to erode in the west.
The Islamic tradition does show some areas of apparent incompatibility with the goals of women in the west, and Muslims have a long way to go in their attitudes towards women. But blaming the religion is again to express an ignorance both of the religion and of the historical struggle for equality of women in Muslim societies.
A careful reading of modern female theologians of Islam would cause western women to be impressed by legal injunctions more than 1,000 years old that, for instance, grant women legal rights to domestic help at the expense of their husbands. Three of the four Sunni schools consider domestic chores outside the scope of a woman's legal responsibilities toward her husband. Contrast that with US polls showing that working women still do 80% of domestic chores.
Westerners, in their advocacy of global conformism, often speak of "progress" and the rejection of the not-too-distant feudal past, and are less likely to reveal their unease about corporate hegemony and the real human implications of globalisation.
Neither are the missionaries of western values willing to consider why Europe, the heart of the west, should have generated two world wars which killed more civilians than all the wars of the previous 20 centuries. As Muslims point out, we are asked to call them "world wars" despite their reality as western wars, which targeted civilians with weapons of mass destruction at a time when Islam was largely at peace.

We Muslims are unpersuaded by many triumphalist claims made for the west, but are happy with its core values. As a westerner, the child of civil rights and anti-war activists, I embraced Islam not in abandonment of my core values, drawn almost entirely from the progressive tradition, but as an affirmation of them. I have since studied Islamic law for 10 years with traditionally trained scholars, and while some particulars in medieval legal texts have troubled me, never have the universals come into conflict with anything my progressive Californian mother taught me. Instead, I have marvelled at how most of what western society claims as its own highest ideals are deeply rooted in Islamic tradition.

The chauvinism apparent among some westerners is typically triggered by Islamic extremism. Few take the trouble to notice that mainstream Islam dislikes the extremists as much as the west does. What I fear is that an excuse has been provided to supply some westerners with a replacement for their older habit of anti-semitism. The shift is not such a difficult one. Arabs, after all, are semites, and the Arabian prophet's teaching is closer in its theology and law to Judaism than it is to Christianity. We Muslims in the west, like Jews before us, grapple with the same issues that Jews of the past did: integration or isolation, tradition or reform, intermarriage or intra-marriage.
Muslims who yearn for an ideal Islamic state are in some ways reflecting the old aspirations of the Diaspora Jews for a homeland where they would be free to be different. Muslims, like Jews, often dress differently; we cannot eat some of the food of the host countries. Like the Jews of the past, we are now seen as parasites on the social body, burdened with a uniform and unreformable law, contributing little, scheming in ghettoes, and obscurely indifferent to personal hygiene.

Cartoons of Arabs seem little different to the caricatures of Jews in German newspapers of the Nazi period. In the 1930s, such images ensured that few found the courage to speak out about the possible consequences of such a demonisation, just as few today are really thinking about the anti-Muslim rhetoric of the extreme-right parties across Europe. Muslims in general, and Arabs especially, have become the new "other".

When I met President Bush last year, I gave him two books. One was The Essential Koran, translated by Thomas Cleary. The second was another translation by Cleary, Thunder in the Sky: Secrets of the Acquisition and Use of Power. Written by an ancient Chinese sage, it reflects the universal values of another great people.

I did this because, as an American, rooted in the best of western tradition, and a Muslim convert who finds much of profundity in Chinese philosophy, I believe the "Huntington thesis" that these three great civilisations must inevitably clash is a lie. Each civilisation speaks with many voices; the best of them find much in common. Not only can our civilisations co-exist in our respective parts of the world, they can co-exist in the individual heart, as they do in mine. We can enrich each other if we choose to embrace our essential humanity; we can destroy the world if we choose to stress our differences.
 
 
Mike
10:26 / 18.01.03
When a Welsh resistance leader was captured and brought before the emperor in Rome, he said: "Because you desire to conquer the world, it does not necessarily follow that the world desires to be conquered by you." - innercircle

Makes me proud to be Welsh. :-)
 
 
innercircle
10:30 / 19.01.03
The White Man`s Burden
1/15/2003 - Political - Article Ref: IV0301-1832
By: Hesham A. Hassaballa, M.D
Iviews* -



By Hesham A. Hassaballa


When President George W. Bush released the National Security Strategy of the United States on September 19, 2001, he declared: "To forestall or prevent such hostile acts by our adversaries, the United States will, if necessary, act preemptively." Doug Cassel, head of Northwestern University Law School's Center for International Human Rights, cautioned against such action in the September 22 edition of the Chicago Tribune. He wrote: "If [the international law rule against pre-emptive strikes] is repealed by Bush, powers like India, China, and Russia may be tempted to force a few regime changes as well. We can hardly ask them to play by more peaceful rules than we do."

Indeed, Mr. Cassel makes an excellent point. Nevertheless, if we attack Iraq tomorrow, apart from empty words of condemnation from allies and adversaries, no one in the world could do anything about it. This is because the United States, as President Bush wrote, "possesses unprecedented---and unequaled---strength and influence in the world." In addition, America intends on doing everything she can to ensure her dominance continues forever.

And there is nothing wrong with this position, on the surface. God has blessed our country with supreme military prowess, seemingly unending wealth, and overwhelming influence. It is only natural that the United States uses that strength to advance what it perceives as her interests throughout the world.

Herein lies the challenge for America. If America wants to ensure that only she is the most powerful country in the world, then she must bear the responsibility of that power. Many in America resent this. Many have complained that America is not the "world's policeman"; we are not into "nation-building," as Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has repeatedly claimed until recently. Yet, we must be. Our military strength coupled with our overwhelming influence necessarily means that we will end up being the "world's policeman." It is our duty to help build nations into strong democracies and beacons for freedom. Like it or not, it comes with the territory of being the most powerful nation on earth. And it is only fair.

Throughout human history, God has showered much praise on the rich who give out of their wealth to the poor. The Bible states: "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity" (1 Cor 13:13). The Qur'an states: "Verily, the pious will be in the midst of Gardens and Springs...[those who] in their wealth there is the right of the beggar and the poor who do not ask others" (51:15-19). While it is not practical that America has to solve all of the world's problems, America must play a major role in helping resolve the world's ills. That is why America's decision to withdraw support for the International Criminal Court is so disappointing. No, America is not the world's soup kitchen. It must, however, be the most important force for the establishment of global justice.

And the case of Iraq is America's first test. President Bush has yet to make an effective case for pre-emptive military action against Saddam Hussein. Although everyone would rest easier (including the writer) with Hussein ousted from power, risking the lives of Americans and Iraqis alike to head off, in Doug Cassel's words, "an unspecified threat in some indefinite future" would be a disastrous abuse of American power. We cannot let the possession of absolute power corrupt us absolutely.

Rudyard Kipling wrote a poem in 1899, "The White Man's Burden." He wrote it in response to his perception that America will become a hegemonic global superpower. Leaving aside the racist and self-pitying undertone of the title, Kipling's intent was to make America realize that being a global superpower exacts a price: "Take up the White Man's Burden/The savage wars of peace/Fill full the mouth of Famine/And bid the sickness cease/And when your goal is nearest (The end for others sought)/Watch sloth and heathen folly/Bring all your hope to naught." President Bush hinted at his understanding of this responsibility in his National Security Strategy: "The great strength of this nation must be used to promote a balance of power that favors freedom." I hope and pray his actions are true to his words.

Hesham A. Hassaballa is a Chicago physician and columnist for the Independent Writers Syndicate.
 
 
Papess
13:03 / 19.01.03
1.Preachy post

2.Waaaay too loong _and_ preachy?

3.Did not read all of your trollish, spamlike posts across the fora.

4.Got the "gist" of what you are trying to get across.

5.Goes something like: "Be nice to everyone, even muslims"

6.Oooh, good advice. Thank you for enlightening us all.

7. Your posting style is irritating me.
 
 
illmatic
14:46 / 19.01.03
Ditto. Go away.
 
 
innercircle
16:35 / 19.01.03
http://www.islamicity.com/communications/Discussion/DiscussionGuest.shtml
 
 
arcboi
18:58 / 19.01.03
A very interesting post and IMHO there are some quite valid points made there.

Not quite sure if the Magick forum is the right place for it though.....
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
19:18 / 19.01.03
The thing is, ic's posts are all copied verbatim from other sources, they are not actually making any points of their own, and any requests to do so or debate their edicts are met with pseudo-bollocky drivel and a dismissive wave of the wrist, which is why they have got people's backs up at the moment...
 
 
illmatic
20:30 / 19.01.03
IC - I'm in a bit less of an annoyed mood now. I've read teh article above and concede it's very interesting. Didn't tell me anything I'm not aware of though, I'm well aware of the importance of Islamic civilisation to the Renaissance etc and how Islamic scholars kept alive a lot of the knowledge of the Greeks (Galen etc) blah blah.

However, I'd ask you what you hope to acheive by posting like this, apart from pissing everyone off - no one appreciates having someone else's reading shoved in their face. If you want to discuss it, can't you supply some comments or opinions? And also can you try answering these questions and any others in the first person, rather than your current annoying style, which just give the impression of distance and one upmanship rather than someone who wants to converse.

I've a feeling this will fall on deaf ears but it's worth a shot...

BTW, as someone else has mentioned elsewhere, your stuff reminds me of the 23 group emails - only at least they had their own resources and web space and didn't try and butt in on an already happily functioning community,...
 
 
innercircle
22:19 / 19.01.03
the purpose of this thread is to humanise the islamic faith. not all of us have the privilage to know a muslim.

the media portrayal of Muslims is discriminatory, they are often the cause of much hatered and fear through a lack of understanding. the task for the innercirlce is to bring together a smebelace of understanding in this unfamiliar area, with the underlying motivation to see through faith and look at people.

Thus to see current events, litrature, art through the eyes of a muslim is to begin that process of discovery.

icOne
 
 
mixmage
03:57 / 20.01.03
Inshallah...
 
 
illmatic
10:42 / 20.01.03
IC - thanks for replying. I would ask if posting a big splurge like this is the best way to achieve this though? As May says above, comes over rather preachy. After all, I wouldn't thrust my reading in your face - if there's a topic I want to discuss on here, I would sooner provide a HTML link and a few open questions.

I also think that most of the people on this board would be broadly aware of some of the issues you have raised about discrimination/distortion around Islam, in the light of 9/11 and the forthcoming war.

However, I would concede that Islam is not especially well represented in here thus far - not that there's any reason why it should be, after all, we're not practising positive discrimination. In the interests of debate though, I'd ask are there any Muslims on the board, either by birth or conversion? And while I realise this is a very different area (more Western cultural appropriation?), has anyone been inspired by the Sufi tradition?

I'd also like someone to provide my with a definiton of the word "jihad", as I've characterisied it elsewhere on the board as "war of conversion" and I suspect this is probably erroneous.

Any takers?
 
 
Simplist
16:22 / 20.01.03
The Koranic exhortations to Jihad have historically been interpreted as either/both a command to wage literal war to convert or subdue unbelievers, and/or as a call to wage an inner war to bring oneself into alignment with the will of God, or various combinations of the two. Nowadays in the Western press journalists (in their black and white way) generally present one interpretation or the other as the "real" meaning of Jihad depending on their political perspective; right-wingers favor the "Jihad means kill infidels" gloss, while lefties prefer "Jihad means peaceful inner struggle". Obviously within Islam itself interpretations must be considerably more nuanced. The one Muslim I know well enough to discuss these kinds of things with is from a relatively liberal Muslim country in Africa, and has approximately the same regard for the kind of Islam they practice in Saudi Arabia that a New York Episcopalian would have for a crowd of Southern Baptist fundies from rural Alabama. He tells me that most moderate Muslims don't even worry much about this stuff, prefering to leave these kinds of considerations to academics and theologians.
 
 
Simplist
16:33 / 20.01.03
A quick web search turned up the following very interesting article on an Islamic website:

Understanding JIHAD: Definition and Methodology - Part 1

Part 2
 
 
grant
17:23 / 20.01.03
Neither are the missionaries of western values willing to consider why Europe, the heart of the west, should have generated two world wars which killed more civilians than all the wars of the previous 20 centuries. As Muslims point out, we are asked to call them "world wars" despite their reality as western wars, which targeted civilians with weapons of mass destruction at a time when Islam was largely at peace.


Funny, I thought Muslims were rather hip deep in the first one.

Y'know, Ottoman Turks and all that.
 
 
cusm
17:37 / 20.01.03
Would the Switchboard perhaps be a better place for this?
 
 
penitentvandal
20:47 / 20.01.03
I was thinking Head Shop myself...

I think that first post is a bit disingenuous. And I think the second is, how can I put this, interestingly nuanced. I suspect there's actually a large non sequitur in the second one that I can't see due to being overly tired right now. But I'll concentrate on the things that I notice about the first one.

All in all, a post it's hard to disagree with in general: May's extreme abstracting of it seems about right. I think blaming 'Europe' for the world wars is a bit strong, as Japan, erm, isn't in Europe. Like. And, as grant points out, the Ottoman Turks do have to bare a share of the blame for the hames that was the first world war. Them and all the other empire-building fuckers who dreamt up the scheme of alliances best described as 'bollocks' by Captain E.Blackadder...

Caricatures of Muslims looking like Nazi Jew-caricatures in the western press? Fine, show me one. And what about the Jew-caricatures one finds in Arabic newspapers, might I ask?

And as to the main thrust - that people do not necessarily desire the values of the west - well, fair enough. Nor does the west, or some areas of the developing nations, necessarily desire the values of Islam, either. Both sides in this debate need to realise that the 'other' - and many Muslims construe the west as 'other' just as much as we construe them - doesn't necessarily want or need their values, and has the right to live without them.

Overall though, I do agree with the post. But I think it would be improved by the author taking the same active relationship to his own adopted religion as he takes to western culture. Always, always question, even if you're a convert. Especially if you're a convert.

vandal sleepy. vandal not sure post making much sense, but vandal not care. vandal sod off now.
 
 
innercircle
21:18 / 20.01.03
Very good so far much considered thought and contributions, not a lot of troll activity….long live iChing.


So in the spirit of good faith and a little cut and P****

Thought for the Day, 11 October 2001

Hamza Yusuf

The Afghans tell a humorous tale of an American who sought enlightenment in their land. When he arrived he asked the first Afghan he saw, " who is the most enlightened man in your land?" The Afghan who knew no english replied "namai safman" which in their language means, I don’t know what you’re talking about.

The American set out looking for this fellow named Namai Fafman. He soon came upon a funeral procession and out of curiosity asked an onlooker who it was who had died. The Afghan not knowing english replied "Namai Safman." Again, "I don’t know what you’re talking about." The American cried; "And to think, I just missed him."

The moral of this story is that we must understand a people before we can benefit from them. In the current crisis, all sides are shouting but no-one seems to be understanding.

Unfortunately in the absence of real discourse extremism has produced its own language that the mob do understand. If you’re not with us, you’re against us, has become the mantra uttered by both extremes which oversimplifies a complex matter and only serves to further polarise and incite. Reason and truth have always resided in the difficult middle ground between black and white, good and evil. Indeed life seems anything but black and white and good and evil battle it out daily within our own souls. Adhering to this middle ground enables us all to see our common humanity and its shared core values whether sacred or secular.

The terror inflicted on September 11th was indeed evil. However, we should ask ourselves, are the retaliatory strikes presently terrifying and killing mostly innocent civilians a good response or are they a betrayal of the very core values we all share? The prophet Mohammed over fourteen hundred years ago said "beware of extremism, for it is that which destroyed the peoples before you." In the light of the present situation it is indeed wise advice. He also said, "My way is the middle way."

Moderation is in fact the way of thinking people everywhere. The vast majority of humanity is not extremist but in key times can easily be driven so. To attack the seemingly intractable problem of terrorism at its roots we must address the condition that produced it and not just its ugly branches or bitter fruit. In our meeting with President Bush he said to American faith leaders twice, "I see opportunity through the tears."

My fear is that if we continue to bomb an already war-ravaged and defeated nation while telling them that we are not at war with them or their religion, they will only reply "namai safman" I don’t know what you’re talking about.

copyright 2001 BBCic



bring the frontline to your bedromm.

‘Ritual, religion and mysticism’ Barbie Majick! …Er… relevancy 100%!

icThanks
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:04 / 20.01.03
So, how do we feel about the recent police raid on a mosque in North London? The Metropolitan Police say that their actions were justified by the threat of terrorism, and that they consulted with Muslim police officers on appropriate action, and that the areas reserved for prayer were at no point violated. However, as the current villain of the piece said, a flat in Hackney was surrounded for a fortnight before anyone moved in, and the administrators of the mosque were not consulted before action was taken. Is this acceptible?

I realise that this is taking the thread towards the Head Shop. In the meanwhile, however, could the Magick mods give this a meaningful topic abstract?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
05:22 / 21.01.03
Strange thing about the raid- the papers the day before were carrying a story that the Charity Commission were going to revoke Hamsa's license, because the police were powerless to do anything. None of them said why, exactly, the police were powerless. Double bluff?

It's a strange one, as regards religious sanctity. AFAIK, Xtian churches still, nominally at least, are places of sanctuary. Does this not also apply to mosques? Did it ever? Or does it, and "we" just ignored it?
 
 
bjacques
09:10 / 21.01.03
(attempt at topic relevants)
Maybe they were trying to lay a Malay Black Djinn Curse on the Anglo-American alliance. No ricin found, just gunpowder, ink and and jizz. Or maybe an actual Djinn. PC Plod sez: I'll get me coat!)
(/attempt at topic relevance)

IC, with your first post, you're sorta preaching in the Madrassah, aren't you? Except that Hamza's points about Islamic law sound great in theory, the reality is often Shari'a and western money.

By the way, this being the Magick thread, has anyone followed up on Hakim Bey's stab at reviving a pre- (or post-) Islamic magical tradition? If somebody could raise a Djinn or Afreet, life could get a lot more interesting. Hell, even wider spread of non-magical but still obscure Islamic currents, to say nothing of an equivalent to our Protestant Reformation, would liven things up.

Just wondering...
 
 
bjacques
09:12 / 21.01.03
Oops, that's "relevance."

Stoatie, cops raid churches if things look nasty or the cops don't want to look bad. Hamza should realize it's nothing personal.
 
 
illmatic
13:03 / 21.01.03
Sapient - thanks for the link

doesn't necessarily want or need their values, and has the right to live without them.

This comment seems strangley relevant to someone posting around here, don't you think?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
13:05 / 21.01.03
I'm not surprised that the magic forum is as unvisited as it is.

I've not seen such hostility since the Eloiquinade last danced.

I saw nothing unreasonable about Inner Circles's posts (crikey, I could point you in the direction of several regulars who bore with superlong, irrelevant pastes), but then maybe that's because my dad's a muslim.

Hos Geldiniz, IC as they say in Turkey.

When I saw this thread I was kinda hoping for a Islamic magic discussion, IC.

So tell me - why DID you post yer thoughts here and not in a more appropriate thread?
 
 
illmatic
14:23 / 21.01.03
Yawn, the point is there aren't his thoughts - he's been spamming the board for a week or so now with lenghty posts which consists of articles cut and pasted from various sources. Some of 'em are interesting reading but when someone persists in shoving their reading matter in your face, and refusing to dialogue or express opinion it gets a bit annoying.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:52 / 21.01.03
Yeah - fair point - but......

to someone who wasn't aware of this fact, the responses came across as bitchy, petty and aggressive and didn't display the level of care and thoughtfulness usually attached to such responses. Not all posters and lurkers are as omnipresent as some regualars and I'd imagine 'new' members or even regulars interested in the magic forum could have been frightened off.

I was genuinely surprised at you and May tricks but fuck it; I apologise for jumping in without knowing the full picture.
 
 
cusm
15:44 / 21.01.03
Established: Innercircle is spamming the board and annoying a lot of people. There is a thread in the policy now where anyone seeking to yell at him will have a good place to do so. So, it doesn't have to happen here.

Focus: Progressive Islamic traditions from a religious or mystical perspective.

Future: Possible move to Headshop or Switchboard (or both) to follow this up with philosophical or political discussion. I recommend in fact, that it move about in that order (headshop then switchboard) as a migration experiment, but we'll see how well it lives.
 
 
LVX23
16:10 / 21.01.03
I have to say that I was a bit put off by some of the responses to innercircle's posts...but then a quick survey showed that s/he was making these posts all over the board. I think they are valid in Switchboard but definitely not in Magick - I don't come to this forum to talk about politics or the working class rebelling against the corporate gods. And I think that such cut&paste posts should contain some sort of commentary by the poster that sets it aside from just another spamming.
 
 
illmatic
16:31 / 21.01.03
Yeah fair enough Yawn, no worries, I forget that not everyone spends as much time here as I do - if you want to kick off a discussion about magick and Islam please fire away. Must admit I know nowt about it though beyond reading Peter Lamborn Wilson's (Hakim Bey) books but I'd be interested to see a discussion. There's some crossover between tantra and Islam as well - I'll see if I can find anyhting on line and may post it in The Magick if I do so.
 
 
grant
17:29 / 21.01.03
Here's a little thread on djinn, started yonks ago.
 
 
innercircle
22:18 / 21.01.03
diversionary tactics are below the innercircle as we always have something to say,

firstly let it go with this self referential bullshit of where a post should go, its like babies and dummy’s, insufferable!

secondly what’s with this majerk shit, if you want to discuss that go start your own thread 'Focus Magik Islam' unless it enlightens this thread and its stated goals, forget it.

Thirdly……….if you cant be bothered to contribute meaningfully, don’t.

We prefer purity to profundity

icDepth
……………………………………………………………………………………


icYawn and we think *potential*


……………………………………………………………………..
we present to you tales of an arabian night in Mecca

iCurtsey


‘Gods commands are eternal and equitable and do not change based on the needs of the Federal Reserve or International Monetary Fund.

Prohibition of Riba is the best cure to free humanity from economic slavery. It was valid during the time of Jesus (pbuh) and will be valid until the universe stops expanding.’

One fine dude

………………………………………………………………………………………………….

Malcolm X goes on to Mecca

Writes of his pilgrimage to Mecca in a letter: states that ‘many white people he met during the pilgrimage displayed a spirit of unity and brotherhood that provided him a new, positive insight into race relations; in Islam, he now feels, lies the power to overcome racial antagonism and to obliterate it from the heart of white America.’

……………………………………………………………………………………….


HIFIP iDataBank The Harvard Islamic Finance Information Program iDatabank is a comprehensive and easy-to-use collection of information relating to the world of Islamic banking and finance. This original and unique collection is a helpful tool for both researchers and practitioners

http://www.hifip.harvard.edu/login.asp

.............................................................

The Profet Mohammod (pbuh) said -

‘ALLAH has forbidden you to take usury (interest), therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived.


You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity.’

Ninth Day of Dhul Hijjah 10 A.H. in the 'Uranah valley of Mount Arafat' (in Mecca).

…………………………………………………………………………..


Mr Mathlouthi is the French entrepreneur behind Mecca Cola, a new soft drink designed to cash in on anti-American sentiment around the world -

BBC 8/1/2003

………………………………………………………………………………………………………


Extracts from the Stoning…….


The pilgrim then walks to the foot of nearby hills, and collects about 70 pea-size pebbles for throwing.

The pilgrim stones the Jamrat al-Kubra (Jamrat al-Aqabah) only, preferably before midday.

Stoning the pillar symbolizes stoning the devil. the pebbles must touch the inside of the Jamrat's fence.

The pilgrim stones the The first Jamrah, then the Middle, and finally the Big one in the same consecutive order, after midday on all three days.

day in the life of Hajj

iConvert

………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

http://media.guardian.co.uk/channel4/story/0,12225,872543,00.html

Ciar Byrne
Monday January 13, 2003

The executive producer of a ground-breaking Channel 4 documentary series following six Muslims taking part in the Hajj - the once in a lifetime trip to Mecca - has revealed some of the unprecedented demands of the project, including recruiting a Muslim-only film crew.

icTV
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………


so for this fine evening we sleep we dream of our words read and reasoned


and pray for the humility to understand them.

icLight
 
 
innercircle
22:27 / 21.01.03
may our spelling not reflect our intentions
 
 
innercircle
22:29 / 21.01.03
Prophet Mohammed (pbuh)
 
 
cusm
00:03 / 22.01.03
secondly what’s with this majerk shit, if you want to discuss that go start your own thread 'Focus Magik Islam' unless it enlightens this thread and its stated goals, forget it.

This happens to be the 'majerk' forum. If you can not keep your thread to the theme of the forum, it may be moved or deleted as necessary to maintain consistency. I believe Haus has already explained this to you well enough, so I'll not waste time with it further here. If you personally would prefer this thread be moved, I'll happily file the request for you for approval.
 
 
innercircle
18:47 / 22.01.03
anyone seen the movie Jenin,Jenin?

or the Belin Film Festival entry for

Great Britain is represented in the competition by Michael Winterbottom’s In This World. The film deals with the destiny of a young Afghan emigrant, a destiny that stands for the sufferings of thousands of war refugees. Jamal Udin Torabi, Enayatullah and Imran Paracha play the principle characters.

follow this link to the Festival which focuses on the topic of global of 'Towards Tolerance'

http://www.berlinale.de/


there is loads to see and do with ic
 
  

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