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"But that defeats the purpose" - White poppies

Pin

06:49 / 01.11.01

Last night, I had a discussion with my mother that went thus:

ME: Do you know if there's anywhere that sells white poppies for Remberance Day?
HER: White poppies?
ME: Yes, the pacafist ones.
HER: Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose?
ME: No. How would it do that?
HER: Well if we were all pacafists, we'd all be speaking German now.
ME: No we wouldn't. If we were all pacafists, there wouldn't have been a war.
HER: What, so you'd rather have seen all those Jews killed? Our homeland [Poland, where she is from] destroyed?
ME: You don't quit get this, do you. The Germans would be pacafists too. That's the whole point.

Personally, I think the point of Rememberance Day should be "Never again", which is espically (sp?!) pertinent now, but how do you feel about it? And where the hell can I buy one?!

06:59 / 01.11.01

I'm kind of with your mother, Pin. Although a staunch pacifist myself, I feel that white poppies are rather unnecessary and possibly quite distasteful right-on breast-beating.
I don't really think that a red poppy is some kind of symbol of war-mongering, so I don't know why it has to be countered by a white poppy. The point is to remember those who have been killed in war, especially the First World War, and to care for those who survived or were left behind.
The poppy is itself an inherently pacifist symbol, and wearing a white one is, I feel, more of a statement to make for yourself ("Look at me! I'm a pacifist!") rather than offering symbolic support.
Just personal, that, but flame away.

tom-karika nukes it from orbit

06:59 / 01.11.01

Do the germans do poppies?
Or is it just a way of saying 'we won'?

We're The Great Old Ones Now

10:06 / 01.11.01

The red one is supposed to remember the dead on both sides, I think. And the Germans do so much breast-beating about WWII it's actually a little embarrassing.

I mean, I'm talking about kids who weren't born until the seventies, yeah?

Wear a red one, wear a white one, wear a hat with purple ribbons. Doesn't matter. The point is the nous to apply the idea to every second.

11:33 / 01.11.01

I wish I'd said that.

19:20 / 01.11.01

quote:Originally posted by Mr.Karika:
Do the germans do poppies?
Or is it just a way of saying 'we won'?

Yes, they (we?) do. At least me uncles and cousins. Might not have a "Remembrance Day" in the same way, but yeah.

The Sinister Haiku Bureau

16:49 / 02.11.01

quote:Originally posted by Pin:

Do you know if there's anywhere that sells white poppies for Remberance Day?....
And where the hell can I buy one?!

Just get a normal, red one, and colour it in with tippex.

You English folks (I'm in scotland) do those weird poppies with the leaves, don't you?
I heard poppies don't actually HAVE leaves like that. But I'm not a botanist, so I wouldn't know.
So what's with the leaves?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

23:36 / 02.11.01

If anyone's interested, and in the right area (Jesus, jalk about a niche market) they do the whit poppies in Stoke Newington in London, at the bottom end of Cazenove Road...
about as much help as I can be, I'm afraid...
...I'm kind of looking for somewhere that does black ones (and as regards the tipp-ex thing... yeah... I got in SO much shit for doing that at school... it was kind of cool tho')
You can stuff your revolution.. . I want anarchy and peace
...ummm...

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

23:40 / 02.11.01

And it's just occurred to me...
surely someone cleverer than us twats can come up with something that's DAMN ironic and smart and shit involving poppies... and Afghanistan... and smack...
surely?
(Even if it's not very funny, I promise I'll laugh.)

Pin

16:58 / 04.11.01

The reasons why I would were a white poppy are the reaons why I wear a red one. As it is, many relatives and people I work with (though less at school) seem to treat it like a "We kill Germans! Aren't we great?!" kinda thing, which is why i want a white one. To get away from that.

18:03 / 04.11.01

I don't think that there is anything intrinsically pacificist about the red poppy - and more importantly I don't think that there is anything so intrinsic to the symbol that it can't be misinterpreted or misappropriated for nationalistic ends. It is in many ways a statement of blame - which is inevitable, I suppose. It says "look how many people died during that war" - which brings you right back to who was RESPONSIBLE for the war. In carries with it an implicit levelling of blame that no doubt SHOULD be levelled.

The white poppy has always appealed to me because it points fingers in all directions and none simultaneously. It says that those deaths were the fault of WAR not the fault of the party who started the war. And it asks people to transcend the level of finger pointing to a higher level of pointing at whatever culture it is that we all share that seems to make war inevitable.

I personally feel that there is a time and a place for the white poppy, and in a sense that time is fast approaching. It can too easily be viewed as a reproach or as a reminder to survivors of that war that their friends and family died UNNECESSARILY - because war in itself is unnecessary (or should be). So I don't believe that it's a particularly sensitive thing to wear around those survivors. But as time passes, and the issues of blame and responsibility become more and more matters of history then it becomes more and more time for a symbol that reflects people's dissatisfaction with the idea of war as a means to ANYTHING...

So maybe not yet, but soon...

Pin

18:11 / 04.11.01

You horribly elloquent man... Gotta say I agree with you on all points except that the time for the White Poppy is now, and not sometime in the future. With Operation: Enduring peace (or whatever), it coiuldn't be less pertinent.

13:10 / 22.11.01

Swiftly renamed from Operation Raining Death or something equally gung-ho and warlike. I do detest army euphemisms. "Friendly fire" is right up there on my all-time hate list.

White poppies vs. red poppies: hmm. Wonder if someone will breed a real white poppy to match? Shouldn't matter which you wear, I suppose, but it rather depends on to whom you want to give your money: survivors, widows, veterans etc or peace organisations.

And, of course, which colour goes best with your jacket.