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two words that bug me...

 
 
Persephone
00:01 / 28.01.02
...and I’m not saying that I automatically think that anyone who uses them is a jerk-off.

I figure that if I post ‘em in the Head Shop, somebody here will either a) say the genius thing that will re-tune these words in my head and I will stop hearing them as fingernails dragging on a chalkboard, or b) shore up my theoretical underpinnings for objecting to these words and I will be steadier when the wind blows.

The one word is oriental. I’m thinking this has to be a transatlantic thing, right? Because this one pops up now and again on the board; and actually in a recent thread I saw a bad-cop good-cop thing going with “chinky” followed by “oriental,” which for me was like getting stabbed in one eye and then the other eye. Anyway in the States I think most people say Asian, and I’m sure that 90% of my reaction is about conditioning; but here’s my 10% reasoning, which comes all from Edward Said’s “Orientalism.” If I may paraphrase grossly, the problem with the word “oriental” is that it is part of a dual pair with “occidental.” What follows is a whole series of dualities: the West offers enlightenment and the East mystery, the West is active and the East passive, and all down the line. Reject the word... and you reject the duality, and then you stop seeing Other, which is a good thing... and clinging to the word is clinging to the conception of Other... which, they say, is not as good.

The other word is white trash, which I have stronger feelings about and a shorter objection that goes with--id est there’s no equivalent word for blacks, Latinos, or Asians, the implication to me being that there’s whites and white trash, and non-whites are all trash. Not to mention the nastiness of referring to any human being as trash.

Alrighty... make something happen, friends.
 
 
The Monkey
01:09 / 28.01.02
"orientalism" is meant to be ugly...I can't make you feel better about it. At least in academic circles, it is used to describe that false-attribution process that tags "The East" with certain qualities and "The West" with others. It's common usage as a false synonym for "Asian" (a construct that bothers me as well, especially when attributed to people) is a linguistic holdover from a time period when "orientalist" ideas were taken as factual...Victorian period or the equivalent.

And no, don't "reject the word"-- simply use it in its proper sense, to point out that someone is being an ass by postulating that dualism.

Now, my family is from rural Kentucky and Oregon, so I have even bigger issues with "white trash," since I and everyone I live around regularly get stuck with that one by condescending [mostly white] urbanites. The term likely originates as internal-to-ethnic-group slur for poor rural whites [in the South, mostly] by urban/suburban middle-class whites [everywhere else]. Terms like "hillbilly" and "mountain man" have the same sort of derivation and negative semantic load.

I know you're thinking in terms of modern ethnic categories, in which "white" is a unified thing, but recall that for most of the world, including huge tracts of the US, "white" is most decidely not a unified set, and never has been. Ask the Bosnians and Serbs, or the Germans and French....

Remember that "race" and "ethnicity" are entirely artificial categories, even though they occasionally map onto physiological traits. The Greeks consider the Dacians and other Slavs barely human (barbarians), and the Macedonians only tolerable...and they asserted all of this in terms of absolute racial categries, even physiological differences that were "obvious." The same is true of the Romans and their subjects and the competing tribes of the British Isles. The mass of people we now consider "Chinese," and of a single ethnic group, are in their own minds of many seperate ethnic categories.

Sticking to this country alone, historically each wave of latter-day immigrants has been perceived as alien and sub-human: the Irish, the Polish, Slavs, Italians, Greeks, Spaniards, Scots, Russians, French "Cajuns"...Catholics, Orthodoxists, Jews....
Most have never entirely recovered from these markers, regardless of how their economic fortunes improved or how they dispersed.

The people who set the racial standards we're largely discussing were descendants of German, English, and Nordic origins...and all of Protestant denominations. Extrapolate one step further and figure that most of them considered themselves first "genteel" and "from an old family," and you begin to get a picture of where all the epithets and stereotypes are being accumulated in this nation....

However, if you look internal to ethnic groups, though, you can find similar concepts being played out among other ethnic groups.
The Irish, to this day, have a stigmatized group referred to as "Shanty Irish." In the 1900s-1940s middle-class, educated African-Americans in the North referred to uneducated, lower-class African-Americans as "guiche"--and the term was not a nice one. It goes on and on....

People like to reify, and they like to feel superior, even if there isn't any rhetorical basis for it. This is why all humans suck.

[ 28-01-2002: Message edited by: [infinite monkeys] ]
 
 
The Monkey
01:18 / 28.01.02
Now, if y'a'll will excuse me, I have to go first fuck my sister, then a sheep, then brew cheap liquor in my back yard...right next to all of the broken-down appliances and cars on cinderblocks.

love an' kisses from the Outer Church,
[smack]
 
 
Tempus
01:27 / 28.01.02
A small thought:

Since "white trash" is, in a sense, a "white" word--though as i. monkeys points out, this is an overbroad generalization--do other cultures have similar derogatory terms which they may apply to their own cultures which simply may not have gained as much currency, due to "white" culture being so dominant?

I'm sure, for example, that somewhere like Nepal, which is fairly homogenous, but adheres to a strict Hindu caste system, has a similar term for its Untouchables. Might this hold true for other cultures which flourish in the US?

If so, couldn't it be said that "white trash" is simply a cultural term which other cultures use, and that the lack of gradated terms for other cultures is mainly due to a lack of awareness of said cultures?

Not that this makes "white trash" a nicer term, but it might provide another angle for looking at it.

Like I said, small thought.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:46 / 28.01.02
Persophone - 'oriental' - yeah, it's not a great word, although it doesn't have the same kind of negative kick as many, and it's broader than I think you think - takes in the middle east and russia - and there's there's no stigma attached to saying 'the East'...

Point taken entirely, overall. For now, though, I'd prefer to deal with the kind of idiot response I get from even quite intelligent people when I mention that my sister in law is Thai, or the problems she and my brother had with dispproval from both sides of the race divide when they married.
 
 
Ariadne
08:46 / 28.01.02
Actually - i think that was me who used 'oriental'. Oops. i only used it after thinking for a while and failing to come up with the right term, because here in the UK 'Asian' tends to mean Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi - that part of Asia. and I therefore couldn't think of the right term to use.

Apologies, i didn't mean any offense to anyone - just my limited knowledge to blame.
 
 
Persephone
15:35 / 28.01.02
Ah now please don't feel bad anyone. I only wrote the part about being stabbed in the eyes to be funny...

Very interesting thoughts, and now back to my favorite perpetual activity of rearranging my mental furniture.

quote:Originally posted by Nick:
it's broader than I think you think - takes in the middle east and russia


Ya, I know, Persian carpets and all that...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:01 / 28.01.02
In the black community in the US, you'll find a good number of folks who will tell you why some black people are niggers in a derogetory sense. By the same token, 'niggaz' can be a term of affection...

It's complicated.

I understand your qualms with the phrase 'white trash', but it's really the only phrase that really defines that sort of people that has is widely understood and is not an academic/demographic term...
 
 
sleazenation
18:12 / 28.01.02
Actually Orientalism has a whole lot more to it than a term denoting vague ethnic origin... As Edward Said' points out in Orientalism, his critique on the west's view of 'the east'. The theory underlying this work isneatly encapsulated here.
 
 
sleazenation
18:25 / 28.01.02
quote:
One of the most significant constructions of Orientalist scholars is that of the Orient itself. What is considered the Orient is a vast region, one that spreads across a myriad of cultures and countries. It includes most of Asia as well as the Middle East. The depiction of this single 'Orient' which can be studied as a cohesive whole is one of the most powerful accomplishments of Orientalist scholars.
 
 
SMS
01:04 / 29.01.02
I do know at least a few people, who might, if the term were acceptable, be called Oriental, who are not aware that they ought to be offended by it.
 
 
bio k9
07:08 / 29.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Flux = Pop Cultural Ninja:
I understand your qualms with the phrase 'white trash', but it's really the only phrase that really defines that sort of people that has is widely understood and is not an academic/demographic term...

Can you please explain what "sort of people" you are talking about? Hicks, rednecks, and hillbillys all cover similar terrain. And poor white folk or the term trailor trash do even better. The fact is white trash means "niggers are niggers because they were born that way but you're white and you're acting like a nigger." It should be offensive to everyone.
 
 
Persephone
12:34 / 29.01.02
quote:Originally posted by SMatthewStolte:
I do know at least a few people, who might, if the term were acceptable, be called Oriental, who are not aware that they ought to be offended by it.


Well yeah, like my mom and dad and my older sister. Then again, older sister not infrequently asks younger sister and me about her kids, They don't look *too* Oriental, do you think? (Kids' dad is white.)

And then again, not to wash everyone with that brush...

I guess I'd like to hear from someone who actively prefers to be called Oriental, that would be interesting.

Obviously, you would not want to come bringing the light to someone who doesn't know or doesn't mind the term. But does the apparent fact that they don't mind settle the question in your mind? I mean, you could decide just for yourself what word seems right to you and just use it yourself?
 
 
SMS
20:16 / 29.01.02
It alone doesn't settle the question in my mind, no. But it does influence my feelings towards it of course.

quote: The fact is white trash means "niggers are niggers because they were born that way but you're white and you're acting like a nigger."

I'd question whether that is a fact. Especially considering that there are inter-racial derogatory terms for at least one other race. Flux gives an example of this. I can see how the term would give that impression fairly easily though, and favour its discontiniation.
 
 
ciarconn
09:50 / 30.01.02
Hello, I am from Mexico, and my father was from USA. I've had racist problems on both sides of the border.

Yet, on topic, I have used the term oriental for some time as a generic denomination for the cultures and civilizations located west of Turkey. I had never tought of it as a racist/derogatory term. Honestly, I would have never tought it would bother a person born in Asia (what term would not be considered racist for demominatig such cathegory?).

On the other side, don't europeans or asiatic people generalize "americans" for Brazilians, Mexicans and Canadians?

I do not wnat to sound rough, but I think that the recism in a word is a matter of context, of the meaning each one gives to a word.

When I was in USA, I was called "Mexican" as a derogatory term, and yet I have always been proud of being mexican (I chose this nationality).

Perhaps the trouble with oriental is that you have been in social contexts where it is used as a racist word, but not everybody uses it as a racist word.

Peace
 
 
SMS
09:50 / 30.01.02
No, I think you're right ciarconn. Context does make a word racist. I'm not sure whether other 'lithers have heard "Oriental" used in this context or not. It does seem, though, like the origin of the word has some bearing on its appropriateness.
 
 
SMS
09:50 / 30.01.02
By the way, ciarconn, welcome back. It's been a while since we've seen you around. Lurking maybe?
 
 
sleazenation
09:50 / 30.01.02
OK if context is all does that mean that we should be a little easier of George W. Bush? For those who don't know his legendary ignorance extended to calling the inhabitants of Pakistan Pakis. Now in the US i'm lead to believe that this term of abuse is not in currency, so does that make his faux pas acceptable of does his position of power mean that he should be more aware of context?
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
10:47 / 30.01.02
I think that if you are a global statesman it might be a good idea to run these things past somebody with an understanding of which terms *could* be insulting....

But it's an interesting one. "Paks" was mooted as a possible alternative, but it was pointed out that this was first used by racist groups in the UK, who wrote "Paks spread Pox" on walls.

Just as interesting might be the question of why GWB felt able to look for a less hassly affectionate abbreviation when he probably wouldn't have described Lithuanians as "Lithies" or subjects of my own fair nation as "People of the Uni"?

[ 30-01-2002: Message edited by: He said he had a horrible Haus ]
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:58 / 30.01.02
quote:Originally posted by ciarconn:
On the other side, don't europeans or asiatic people generalize "americans" for Brazilians, Mexicans and Canadians?


I'm British and so can't speak for people from Asia, but in my experience we would refer to 'South Americans' or 'Latin Americans', 'Mexicans' and 'Canadians'. 'Americans' usually means citizens of the USA. But yes, there is a tendency to lump all the nations in the southern continent together as 'South America'.
 
 
ciarconn
11:01 / 30.01.02
No, if the person uses a term offensively, or derogatively, against other person, in relation to his race or place of origin, it should be considered a racist word (inside that context).
In Bush's case, there was no need to use a "familiar" contraction. It is a demonstration of his ignorance, but ignorance does not exclkude anybody from doing the right things.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:34 / 30.01.02

Can you please explain what "sort of people" you are talking about? Hicks, rednecks, and hillbillys all cover similar terrain.


I would think that those words are a bit more geographically precise, don't you? You also mention trailor trash, which obviously implies that they would live in trailors, which isn't always true, particularly in areas of the US where trailors parks are few and far between.
 
 
w1rebaby
12:54 / 30.01.02
quote:The fact is white trash means "niggers are niggers because they were born that way but you're white and you're acting like a nigger."

I'd question whether that is a fact.


I find "white trash" a bit offensive, though I don't know if anything along these lines can be a "fact"... but I was wondering why.

The phrase "paki scum" obviously doesn't imply that all non-pakis are scum. It's two words both used in a derogatory way, and the implication is "all pakis are scum, and you are both". Like "tory scum".

I suppose it's context dependent, "white" is not considered an insult where the phrase "white trash" is used, so the implication becomes "you are trash, and you're white, which makes it worse since white's aren't supposed to be trash".

(Comic Geek Alert: I just remembered the scene in The Authority where Regis (alien ruler of an alternate Earth) calls the heroes "little white trash". Now, he's not using it in that sense - he's blue.)

The other problem I have with "white trash" is that it reminds me of (and I think comes from the same perspective as) a phrase which I hate more, and which is still used in the media in shocked tones, astoundingly - "white slavery". The implication being that black slavery is nothing special or unusual. That one really pisses me off.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:01 / 30.01.02
I don't think that 'white trash' is often as much of a comparison to other races and ethnic groups as it is comparing poor and underclass white people in America against those who are upperclass, or at least more refined...

I don't contest that it is a very sketchy phrase, and has very bad racist connotations...I'm just suggesting that the usage of the phrase, which describes a lifestyle more so than an economic status - there are nouveau-riche people who cling to what can be called a 'white trash' lifestyle - is more indicitive of cultural rather than racial prejudices.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:08 / 30.01.02
Well, would you ever call a black person who lived in a trailer park, drank Coors, and watched NASCAR "White Trash"?
 
 
w1rebaby
14:05 / 30.01.02
I'm sure the white people who occupy that socio-economic bracket are culturally different to the hispanic or black people, but I still think it packs a subtle insult towards other races as well in the way it's used. I blame society.

Ah, if only the day would come when we could insult the poor without fear of being racist, when prejudice will be based purely on wealth, when all ethnic groups can spit on the proles together...
 
 
alas
14:08 / 30.01.02
I think there's an interesting parallel between these two terms--"oriental" and "white trash". I'm trying to put this together from my reading of the Said link, and a review (by one Paul Kennedy) in the current NYTimes Book Review of Bernard Lewis's WHAT WENT WRONG? Western impact and Middle East Response--which is premised on the following "grand narrative" (i'd link, but it's only avail to suscribers, so apologies for the long quote):
quote:
Sometime around 1760, Britain, then France and America took off to another world, one that was increasingly secular, democratic, industrial and tolerant in ways that left many of the other regions gasping at the combined implications of such changes. Certain societies in parts of Latin America or India or Russia felt they had little choice but to follow suit, although hoping to brake the impacts of Western man. The Middle East, powerful a half-millennium earlier, when Europe was a bundle of inchoate, backward states and unworthy of attention, did not. Yet Europe rose while the Muslim world rested on its laurels -- until it was besieged by Western ships, armaments, iron goods and cheap textiles, to all of which it became harder and harder to respond.

The West's cultural messages, especially about democracy, made things even more difficult. Those with power in Muslim societies found it impossible to contemplate the separation of religion and state, or admit to a changed place in society for women or permit the free exchange of ideas, particularly unpleasant ideas, on the lines argued by John Stuart Mill and others. But there is even more to it than that. As Lewis shrewdly points out, the works of Mozart and Shakespeare and Voltaire have traveled around the globe, as for that matter have Stravinsky, jazz and George Orwell. But they all pretty much stop at the frontiers of the Arab world, which has shown little interest in how others think, write, compose; there are few translations of these writers and few performances of these musicians, nor are there great libraries and museums of Western art to match the impressive collections of Muslim culture in the West. (There is no presumption by Lewis here that Western or Slavic or Japanese culture is inherently superior, only that it is disturbing that this troubled part of our planet has never really cared.)

It is not that the Muslim world was totally without attempts at reform and renewal in the face of global trends, or that there was no appreciation that its own earlier superiority had vanished. In fact, Lewis is extremely good in detailing Ottoman and Arab and Iranian scholars who, from the 18th century onward, called with growing alarm for change. The sad fact is that for the most part their calls went unheeded.


This narrative--while sounding all very reasonable--smacks of a kind of smugness to me, anyone else? And the whole issue bothers me because of the implication that people designated as "orientals" (or "The Arab World") or "white trash" are, with few exceptions, devoid of some basic humanizing characteristic: call it "curiosity." Call it "class."

For "Muslims" call it the lack of a kind of "cool" regard to religion--"midlevel dominance strategy" anyone?--i.e., religion as something ALL (well, all the ones that count) us westerners have grown beyond. (I recently read somewhere: every vice that can be ascribed to religious thought has an exact parallel in secular thought.)

For "white trash" call it a lack of a kind of "cool" as regard the rearing of children, the appropriate ironic stance towards cultural production . . . or the taste that discerns "kitsch" from "art" . . .

Does this ring anyone's bells?
[edited for clarity. alas.]

[ 30-01-2002: Message edited by: alas ]
 
  
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