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Destiny

 
 
akira
18:18 / 12.10.01
Do you beleve we each have destinys?
 
 
Sax
19:00 / 12.10.01
I bloody hope not. I'd hate to think I couldn't change my life from the next moment on through my own decision.

Or am I being simplistic?

Or was I meant to say that?
 
 
Ariadne
19:20 / 12.10.01
Sax, your destiny appear to be to question yourself and your every post on this board.

And to get attacked by the siriusly paranoid.

(off topic - good one on the 'reading newspapers' thread - your destiny is to say what I want to, thanks)

I don't believe in destiny. I can't - how can anyone? Otherwise you'd just lie in bed thinking 'it's my destiny to lie in bed'. Why would you ever do anything proactive?

Or maybe, worse, you'd just do whatever the hell you like, hurting people left, right and centre, while telling yourself you have no choice.

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Ariadne ]
 
 
Lost Nauth
20:35 / 12.10.01
I think that it may be fate for a man to die in a war, but it's still up to him whether or not he dies bravely or cowardly.
 
 
reidcourchie
20:41 / 12.10.01
Why bring up war? Why suggest destiny in that way and then make the choice the only way you can go about it?

Destiny strikes me as being very retroactive.

I believe in destiny and the individuals ability to control it. Is that a contradiction? Or maybe I don't believe in it.

Besides does it matter if it's real or not because you feel like you've made choices throughout your life, who cares if it's destiny or not.
 
 
DrDee
20:50 / 12.10.01
I normally consider destiny an after-the-fact rationalization we build to try and get an impression of order out of this big contingency machine we're riding. We perceive it only after we've been through the events, or at best right while we're going through them.

So, basically, I'd say there's such a thing as destiny as long as the thing suits you.
Otherwise, you're on your own.

My only caveat - be careful of those that call upon destiny and fate to push their own agenda.
 
 
akira
13:22 / 14.10.01
For years, philosophers have debated over what determines the future. Some say that fate exists, and that choice is an illusion. Others believe that we make choices of our own free will. What do you believe in?
 
 
SMS
02:33 / 15.10.01
The decisions we believe to be ours are made by our shadow beings, who have infinite forsight into the future. Unfortunately, they have forsight into the future of their shadow universe, which is considerably different than the one we live in. The decisions we're making are for our inverse shadow selves, living in another universe, which has no remembrance of the past. Unfortunately for them, their past is considerably different from our own.
 
 
SMS
02:39 / 15.10.01
How about we assume destiny exists and then define it in such a way that it actually does. We know that our lives are governed by probability. And we know that different times in our lives have different kinds of probability. At some point, certain future events become destined to happen. For instance, at some point before WWII, the chances of particular governments falling into a totalitarian regime was probably very high. But it wasn't at this point necessarily destiny for Hitler, Stalin, et al to be the dictators. Had they been hit by a car, the countries would have been ruled by someone else. But then, at some point in time, it became Hitler's destiny to rule over Germany as the chances of it being otherwise were quite small.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
10:28 / 17.10.01
I'm not 100% time exists so without that fate and destiny don't matter. Of course, I could be entirely wrong but if I am then time exists both forward and back so future events are just history that hasn't happened yet, which means that it's just fate.
 
 
Ganesh
09:14 / 18.10.01
No.
 
 
Frances Farmer
09:44 / 18.10.01
I'm going with SMatthew on this one: Probablistic Arrays.
 
 
the Fool
09:44 / 18.10.01
I believe in something like fate. Though I think of it as more like 'Jungian Syncronisities' I think the term is. Bizarre levels of oddity and improbability that seems to be trying to help me out on occassion. If I really need help, it finds me.
 
 
Bear
09:44 / 18.10.01
Not sure I really believe in it totally, how would you messure it? Was I meant to type this message right at this moment, or just take a sip of my coffee? Pengiun?
 
 
the Fool
09:44 / 18.10.01
I think it can only be measured by how much you feel it. If you don't feel it, it's not there. If you do feel it, it is. Oddly it doesn't seem to matter either way if destiny/fate exists or not, its more about what works for you. In my life I've had a lot of experiences I would put down to fate or destiny or whatever, but that could be just my poor chemically damaged brain interpeting events in a certain way that make it look like fate or destiny or whatever is at work in my life. Who knows?

[ 18-10-2001: Message edited by: the Fool you though you knew ]
 
 
A. Machine
03:06 / 20.10.01
I mathematically proved Predestination=Free Will, but I lost it. Ain't that always the way. Fucking LSD.

It had something to do with everything only being a fraction of 1, and 1 was the only number, so processes dictated by some subsystem were just talking to itself. Hence there is destiny, but it's someing from you. Or something. Help.
 
 
belbin
20:23 / 21.10.01
The short answer is no - not in the sense that a divine being has mapped out our existences.

However, are predisposed to do and be certain things - genetically, by personality, etc. We do and we don't have 'free will'.

The coments about destiny being retrospectively constructed are quite interesting.

Of course, destinies can be self-fulfliing too.
 
 
SMS
01:10 / 25.10.01
quote:Originally posted by A. Machine:
I mathematically proved Predestination=Free Will, but I lost it. Ain't that always the way. Fucking LSD.

It had something to do with everything only being a fraction of 1, and 1 was the only number, so processes dictated by some subsystem were just talking to itself. Hence there is destiny, but it's someing from you. Or something. Help.


I gave a rant, beginnin post of "Free Will vs. Determinism" along these lines. It's in the Head Shop.
 
 
Frances Farmer
02:51 / 25.10.01
How aboutt this:

Let's look at some Chaos and Complexity theory.

I'm no expert, so I'm going to start with some somehwat infantile (in that I couldn't demonstrate these mathematically if I wanted to, right now) descriptions and comparisons that'll help me get across'd what I'm trying to say.

A lot of this is ruthlessly plagiarized from Skeptic magazine volume 8.

Complexity Theory: "Per Bak's Sand Pile"

When you originally start building a pile of sand, the behaviour of the grains of sand as they are "put" into the pile can be predicted bs equations resulting from interactions between traits of the individual constituent identities of the sand pile.

In other words, standard and simplistic equations will yield the answers representing the consequences of any given behaviour.

Once the pile reaches a critical point -- towards the pyramid -- avalanches begin to occur. These avalanches cannot be described by the same equations that describe the behaviours of individual grains and their interactions.

That, I think, it was makes a system complex. When, in a way, the whole becomes greater than the sum of it's parts. That describes complexity. You can't describe the overall behaviour by amassing descriptions of the behaviours of constituent parts.

There are two kinds of Chaos:

"True" chaos is described as genuine 'stochastic' fluctuation. Not only unpredictable, but showing no trend.

"Deterministic" chaos is described as ostensibly chaotic behaviour that, over time, seems loosely connected to an underlying pattern.

Most scientists working on Chaos problems are concerned, at this point, with the determinant factor seperating the two.

You do this by finding the "Attractor".

There are "fixed-point" and "strange" attractors.

Chaos theory most accurately describes traits of physics and non-linear mathematics.

Complexity theory's most common and popular meme is the classic butterfly-cascade scenario: A butterfly flapping it's wings in Brazil can create a tornado in Texas (or Beijing).

The two sometimes get confused.

So, now that I've rambled endlessly with a somewhat sad mishmash of my own words and those of article's author, I guess I'll try and get to the point.

I have a feeling that "random" behaviour and "deterministic behaviour" are not really that different. I think where Chaos and Complexity theory are really going, is, a holistic understanding of the universe. I think these equations are telling us that there's no difference between free will and destiny, randomness and "deterministic chaos". The scientists are looking for a red herring. And I think the theory itself says it all, right there.

Perhaps destiny looks terribly simple when you're looking at the behaviour of those original grains of sand -- when you're measuring the constituent interactions, able to use the equations to make accurate predictions.

However, at a point, we start getting something that looks like Complexity, Chaotic behaviour, and yet strangely predictable consequence -- all in one.

See, we don't know when it's going to happen. We just know it will. And we can't figure out when until it's happened, because the equations governing that particular piece of it all are no longer derived from individual interactions. The casaul chain breaks but continues -- in that a predictable event has occured, but we can no longer predict all aspects of the event.

You can certainly take inferrences from the proceedings, after the fact. But is it deterministic, or not? Or maybe the whole point is that either/or conceptualization doesn't really describe the universe?

Does that make any sense?

[ 26-10-2001: Message edited by: Frances ]
 
 
deja_vroom
12:00 / 25.10.01
I believe in strong lines of probability being developed and destroyed at each second.
(The butterfly theory etc)
Small whirlpools of destiny beginning and ending...

(now this was an utter boring reply, wasn't it?)
 
 
Devin 1984
14:56 / 25.10.01
I believe we are all just animals. No history, no future. No grand scheme. Just here to exist.
devin

www.harplander.com
 
 
Frances Farmer
08:59 / 26.10.01
Ah, but the question is what do we exist in? The concept of destiny vs. free will, I think, is a universal question -- not a question of certain special individuals. If things are predestined, we look for a universal property signalling such. Likewise for randomness.

And actually, Jade, that's not a boring reply -- that's kind of what I was getting at. Parts of it are predestined, parts aren't -- it's not one or the other.

Like, this... Let's suppose when you first start learning, and acting conciously in the world, you have absolute ability to generate your own destiny -- but only within a scope. For a while you can't speak, or really act. You're completely at the mercy of your pregenitors.

Now, as the scope widens, the actions you can take simultaneously obtain a much wider array of consequence. The further out on the spectrum of this array, the longer a sequence of events is triggered. (Just for conceptualization).

Because of the way elements within these scopes, or arrays, interact with one another, the probability count steadily becomes wider. The exercise of your free will builds up destiny. Your own selected motion creates the whirlpool. The style and magnitude of the motion(exercise of free will) factor into the characteritistics and and proclivities for longevity of the ensuing event sequence.

Right.

This model would indicate that you go through a cycle. You exercise free will in order to find your way into a sequence of highly probable events. Eventually the events, their combinations, or "values", build up and result in completely probable events. Once this occurs, we make our transfer -- we've had an avalanche, and then the properties of the state we find ourselves in when next we exercise our free will has been the result of a transition that, while inevitable, was unpredictable. So we've got free will, randomness, and deterministic behaviour -- all in one. Little eddies and whirlpools and galaxies and nautilus shells all over. Weird, weird things abound. Check this out:

http://www.ldolphin.org/qfoam.html

[ 26-10-2001: Message edited by: Frances ]
 
 
cusm
19:38 / 02.11.01
I like to see this one this way: Destiny is where you are headed, if you do not change your course. If you excercise free will, you might be able to change your destiny.

Given that we exist in a probabilistic universe, one cannot say that anything absolutely will happen. Only, that it is very likely to happen. Mathmaticly, it is still technically possible for even the most obscure random chance to happen, such as all the electrons in your body suddenly displacing themselves across the room for a moment. Its just not bloody likely.

So, destiny in a non-predetermined universe is a vector, one you do not have control over. Your free will is a vector you do. Apply one to the other in the right ways, and you can change it.

Now, perhaps there is some great event in the distant future which none of us have the power to change. A "master" vector. Perhaps. Maybe its God's free will. Although, perhaps even that might be changed, should all of creation push against it. Convince God to change his mind about something. We really can't know that sort of thing, only what is immediately beyond our present scope. Within that scope, anything can be altered with sufficient effort. Its just takes a lot of free will.
 
 
netbanshee
23:45 / 02.11.01
I think the conversation like all things is relative...just depends on how close or how far you look at it...what the scope is.

I mean, I doubt my life will have a great deal of large surprises in it unless I do something absolutely crass, unlike my everyday nature, or intersect an event I was aiming for. And that will only be fairly personal as it's effect eddies out over others. But it'll definitely shift in different places by reacting with a large event, say war, economics, etc. And I guess on top of that it's just being in the right (or wrong) place at that time.

Also, Frances...it seems what you're saying seems very valid. A series of books called, "Understanding ______", has one on Chaos theory that's pretty good and embellishes a little more on what you're saying.
 
 
gentleman loser
23:27 / 05.11.01
My rational side doesn't believe in destiny, fate, "God's will", "everything happens for a reason", the concept of soulmates, love at first site (lust yes, love no). etc, all seem like mere rationalising (delusion is something that humans are very good at, it's our nature) to me.

Besides if you truly believe in destiny, why bother to do anything? I tried that for several years and it didn't work.

Frances, I think you're getting into the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, at which point subjective reality tends to crumble into relative dust anyway.

If reality is subjective to the observer, isn't that the ultimate confirmation of free will?

I think I believe in karma though, so maybe I'm completely full of shit.

[ 06-11-2001: Message edited by: gentleman loser ]
 
 
SMS
01:01 / 06.11.01
quote:Originally posted by gentleman loser:
If reality is subjective to the observer, isn't that the ultimate confirmation of free will?
[ 06-11-2001: Message edited by: gentleman loser ]


Interesting thought. If you are to say that reality is completely relative to the observer, then it would seem to me less like the question "is there free will?" is meaningless, anyway. I may see a reality operating completely off of deterministic principles and you may see one operating off of something called free will.

But if reality is simply defined based on the human experience, and is simply dependent on the observer rather than simply the experience of the observer hirself, then this doesn't necessarily say anything about free will. One could say that our own existence has to proceed from the same principles as the existence of the rest of the universe. If these principles include complete determinism, then I don't see any reason human beings might not be determined as well.
 
 
Cat Chant
07:51 / 06.11.01
I like the shadow-self theory best, I think.

I also think - and to a large extent this is hippy bullshit - that the world responds to certain patterns set up in ourselves. F'rex, I have a huge decision to make in the near future. This decision was sprung on me at exactly the point in my life (okay, in the progress of my psychotherapy) where I was both least capable of making the decision, and most fully aware of the elements in me that make the decision so difficult. And I think that this happens a lot, though I also think it's sort-of retrospective and self-fulfilling: if you look back on your life and see a disaster, and think "But I needed that disaster to happen to get to where I am now..." - well, obviously, because the disaster changed you to the point where you could see what you gained from the disaster.

So, destiny as a name for a specific type of interaction between individual psyche and outside events which were not directly caused by oneself.
 
 
Devin 1984
12:16 / 07.11.01
I watched a Nova special on Wormholes and the theoretical possibility of time travel. They have actually made light particles travel ahead in time by fractions of a second. So, if it is true that mini-wormholes exist, as do large ones, and time travel were possible, wouldn't that throw a wrench into everything we have thought about "destiny"?

devin

www.harplander.com
 
  
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