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Lets talk about Eminem again (also Zadie Smith...)

 
  

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No star here laces
14:18 / 13.01.03
Today, hugely incongruously, the Daily Telegraph (right-wing establishment paper) published the best piece of writing about Eminem, ever. Written by Zadie Smith, and apparently adapted from a Vibe article.

Can't link to it online yet, but may be able to tomorrow.

Particularly interesting comment: "Eminem is waging a war against the hypocritical piety of the American language - the fact that the word 'nigga' causes more of a fuss than the deaths of thousands of young African-American men".

No time to expound further - anyone else read this?
 
 
that
14:23 / 13.01.03
Not read the article. However, Eminem is still a homophobic misogynist wankerly fuckwit.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:58 / 13.01.03
I take it that was a humorous reference to the topic abstract, Chol?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:58 / 13.01.03
not read yet. but....

some say he should've been cast oppo DDL in GONY (no dae that)

And: Z.smchmidt is givin it the 'reverso-aguilera' makeover - ie. wearing 8 sweaters when none will do.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:59 / 13.01.03
that should be: Z.Schmidt.
 
 
grant
16:29 / 13.01.03
An excerpt, from near the top of the story:

As Chris Rock had it, something sure has changed in America when the best golfer is black and the best rapper, white. Rock's choice of word is remarkable: not richest, not most famous, but best. Because there can be no doubt about it any more - it's become churlish to deny it. You may dislike his language, his philosophy (and it is philosophy) or his hair dye. You may say it can't last, and unusually, for a rapper, he will agree with you ("I'm gonna do the music as long as I feel it, but the truth is that I can't rap forever").

But let's settle the bald facts: Eminem has secured his place in the rap pantheon. Tupac, Biggie and Pun are gone, and right now there just isn't anyone else but Eminem who can rhyme 14 syllables a line, spin a tale, write a speech, subvert a whole genre, get metaphorical, allegorical, political, comical and deeply personal - all in the one groove of vinyl. Eminem is a word technician. He makes words work for him, he's never lazy. Most rappers can be branded: we play Snoop for that down-and-dirty feeling; when you want to nod your head and pop your collar, there's Dre. Nelly will give you the songs of sex, Mos Def makes you want to start a revolution and Busta Rhymes is purely for bouncing to. Eminem, like Tupac before him, does a little of all these things. Like Pac, he does them with the integrity of an artist. This doesn't mean that he is above the vulgar business of entertainment. Only that elements of these two rappers are, in the sacred terminology of rap music, kept real. Tupac only sold himself so far, never entirely submitting to the demands of the pop market, never self-censoring.

Eminem's music shares Tupac's obsession with truthfully representing a group of disfranchised people: "I love that Tupac cared about his people, from his background, his generation; he cared what they thought - and anybody else, who didn't understand him, could go to hell."

That role, being the truth-telling prophet to a generation, is troublesome. Some truths are hard and self-destructive. Some are conflicting to the point of schizophrenia (Tupac wrote the feminist elegy Brenda Has a Baby and the abusive Wonder Why They Call You Bitch; Eminem wrote Just Don't Give a F 1- 1- 1- and Rock Bottom, in which he clearly does.) These boys are both Mad at Cha and not mad. They Just Don't Give a F 1- 1- 1- and they do. Certainly they have problems, but they are not criminals. They are rappers.

"The fact that a man picks up a microphone," says Eminem, urgently, "that's it, you see? That's what makes him a rapper. It's not a gun. It's a microphone." But this confusion of terms is at the heart of America's love/hate relationship with rap music. In a 20-minute video montage that opens Eminem's Anger Management Tour, a surreality takes over as we watch the most senior politicians in America, one after the other, stand up in the senate with a sheaf of paper in their hands, awkwardly reading out random lyrics, furiously condemning the dangerous social phenomenon that is Eminem. Even with the extra workload created by the War On Terror, it seems there's always time left over for that old favourite, the War On Rap.

Before this kind of misplaced hysteria, good rappers do not back down. They defend the right to use words as any novelist or filmmaker is free to do. But the trouble lies deep within the form itself. Rap uses a narrative medium that mixes story-telling with dramatic monologue, boasting with political mission-statements, original poetry with endless quotation.




As far as I can tell (looking from the outside in), he's just being a new Elvis. Only with a less cheesy first movie.


One of the interesting bits seems to be this one, on "keeping it real," in a way:

Of course, Eminem's music is entirely self-conscious, it is about rap. It asks: just how mighty is the pen? Eminem talks the talk (Don't think I won't go there/ Go to Beirut and do a show there!), but he has never seemed truly interested in walking the walk. To keep it real within the logic of rap and rock means taking on the weight of the world you represent. Tupac, like Kurt Cobain, was never able to rid himself of the fatal idea that he should fulfil, to the letter, the life and death of the less fortunate people he represented. Eminem has turned from that idea, as his hero Dr Dre did.

"I had a wake-up call with my almost going to jail and s***, like, slow down. It wasn't me trying to portray a certain image or live up to anything, that was me letting my anger get the best of me, which I've done many times. No more."

Eminem has become a tad Zen.
 
 
schmee
16:51 / 13.01.03
i think eminem is good in that he is shaking things up in his own way.

but i can't help but thinkg that Eminem is to Dr. Dre, what W. Bush is to Dick Cheney.

i think is for real in terms of his own personal history and ability to be belligerent, etc. but i think the real mastery of philosophy, artistry and everything other than E's well-rehearsed gig, is largely due to Dre's team, if not Dre himself.

and that's why i like eminem - it's the exact opposite of elvis imho - and story about how a bunch of black folks are milking white folks, using white folks' naivity and rules.

i've always been the underdog supporter, specially really clever ones like Dre.

i doubt we're going to be singing eminem songs much in twenty years. but i'd love nothing more than to be wrong =)
 
 
Linus Dunce
16:52 / 13.01.03
Eminem has become a tad Zen.

And more than a tad richer. As has his record company, owned by which corporation? So I guess that's why it's in the Daily Torygraph.

Is it just me, or is anyone else having difficulty in seeing the ... coherence in Eminem's "prophecy"?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:59 / 13.01.03
I get really annoyed with this attitude that Eminem's claim as being the best rapper is incontestable - that's just absurd. I can come up with a list of at least fourty MCs who blow him out of the water. I mean, the only members of the Wu Tang he's better than is probably Masta Killa and possibly U-God.

I don't even think Eminem's the best WHITE rapper. That's probably MC Paul Barman, if you ask me.
 
 
The Falcon
17:15 / 13.01.03
Genius/Gza says otherwise, Flux.

Lyrically, I don't think he's as good as probably any of them, but in terms of flow and aptitude, better.
 
 
grant
17:32 / 13.01.03
Here's another snip, for Cholister:

People want to know which bits are real and which bits are hip-hop. Does he hate fags ("the answer's yes!")? Or does he love gay men ("Right Ken? Give me an Amen!")? Answer: I don't know. I don't know whether Philip Roth really hates women as much as he seems to, or whether Bret Easton Ellis likes raping them and chopping them up into little pieces....

But then, novels make it easy for you; they say very clearly, and between two hardback covers, I Am A Novel. Rap gives you no such break.

and for Flux:

...rappers always tell you they are the greatest. Most rappers. "I've learned how to ride a beat better, like, on the last album, I hadn't completely mastered it yet. That's what I don't like about that second album - I'd listen and I'd be like, 'Why am I so far behind that beat?' The first album was terrible - like I was playing catch-up with the beat constantly." And he is passionate about the work that must go into a good rap record.... "Sometimes, I'll spend hours on a single rhyme, or days, or I'll give up and come back to it later. Even if I'm flooded with ideas, I'm always trying to figure out how to make it better, make it smoother - that's how it is. Unless you're just somebody who doesn't care."
 
 
A
01:50 / 14.01.03
What the fuck is with all the Tupac-mythologising? Tupac was fucking wack. Before he died, he was just a stupid misogynist who made lousy records and movies, but after his death, he's become a lamented genius who passed before his time. He's the Jeff Buckley of hip hop, only much more so.
 
 
neuepunk
05:07 / 14.01.03
Eminem's albums have the occasional song that's worth a mention. However, his radio and MTV forays are drivel. They are, for the most part, a chance to spew gibberish that only makes sense in context and name-drop celebrities.

"Two trailer park girls go round the outside." Yeah, that makes a lot of sense out of context. Very rich in language, too.
 
 
The Natural Way
07:43 / 14.01.03
Eminem's flows just different to the Wu's. No worse, no better, just different. Very different.
 
 
No star here laces
08:49 / 14.01.03
Jesus christ. Just when you think Barbelith's got it's collective head around hip-hop, a thread like this happens...
 
 
The Natural Way
09:01 / 14.01.03
I didn't do it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:40 / 14.01.03
A thread like what, Byron? This one? Are you disappointed at the prospective rivals to Eminem's crown as the best rapper out there, or by the attitudes to hip-hop on display? Or were you trying to make a link to another thread?
 
 
No star here laces
11:08 / 14.01.03
No, I just think there's a lot of ill-informed commentary going on here, but I have no inclination to name names. Am trying to source a print copy of yesterday's telegraph to elaborate further on what I thought was so good about this article, but am having no joy so far...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:06 / 14.01.03
I suppose that in terms of being a person who is so easy to write and theorize about at length, Eminem is the best rapper. But in terms of music, I really can't see it. Eminem is a great singles artist, but I find it impossible to imagine the man ever making a full length LP that is solid or as timeless as something like 36 Chambers, Ready To Die, Illmatic, It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back, Stankonia, The Blueprint, or even a Funcrusher Plus.

So yeah, Eminem's got all the cultural significance a person could ever hope for in their lifetime, but he does dominate the discussion of hip hop for some people in a really unfair and misguided way. It sort of kills me to see Eminem coasting along on formula and getting all the ink and airtime in the world, and meanwhile (for one example) Common makes one of the most progressive hip hop records in years, and for the most part, the world shrugs. It's very frustrating.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:09 / 14.01.03
Eminem is waging a war against the hypocritical piety of the American language - "the fact that the word 'nigga' causes more of a fuss than the deaths of thousands of young African-American men".

I'm finding this sentence difficult to parse, myself. It sounds like the typical hack boilerplate - the type of thing a writer from Time magazine would write in order to give an article about Jay-Z or some other rapper who's broken into the pop realm some sort of sociological cachet.

Having not read the article, I can't tell you if it's particularly meaningful in context, but in the context of the phenomenon of Eminem* it seems downright stupid. Eminem may be waging a war against the "hypocritical piety of American Language" (again, boilerplate suprising from someone so adept with language as Smith), but what on earth does the word "nigga" have to do with Eminem? He doesn't use it on record, doesn't use it in interviews, and I'd be surprised to hear that he used in private conversation.

If Eminem indeed used "nigga" in his raps, (and arguably - he should - Eminem, if he wants to be relevant, perhaps should become more involved in talking about race rather than just warning white parents that they're kids will grow up to be like him ("beige" - as Al Sharpton called Bill Clinton)), perhaps the first part of the sentence would make sense, but then the second part - "the deaths of thousands of African-American men" has no logical connection to the first. If what Smith objects to is hypocrisy in language, and has one term, "nigga", on one end of the opposition, how can she balance that out with "deaths", which don't occur in language - they occur in real life. People don't get killed by rap songs.

Black on black crime is a terrible thing (though it is apparently decreasing, though that may be more a function of the percentage of young black men locked up - hey, another insight into America for Smith), but how is Eminem advancing the dialogue on it, how is he exposing it? Does he rap about black on black crime? Does he rap about police brutality? Most of his raps seem to turn the blade inward - self-harm. His songs are murder-ballads, yes - but they're personal songs, him against a specific antagonist, rather than him against society.

A white rapper being the most popular certainly makes the media sit up and takes notice, and yes, it might give attention to some other (black) artists who would fit Smith's opposition more coherently. But Eminem didn't bring hip-hop to the mainstream. He didn't force any dialogue onto to the pop culture landscape. If anything, he's Johnny-come-lately - a second or third generation cross-over artist. There was certainly big-time crossover successes in rap before him, black artists. So I can't see why he's so special, why he's any different sociologically than Marilyn Manson or any other "transgressive" artist that white parents hate.

*(and I'm not a huge fan of Eminem - I don't own the albums but I know the singles, that sort of thing)
 
 
The Falcon
12:35 / 14.01.03
I'd say he does actually stand as something of a moralist.

Can't remember which song it was on the second album (not very good one, with Marilyn Manson in the video, maybe...,) but he suggests therein that parents would be better looking at how they treat their children, rather than finding a convenient, and somewhat abstract, target to blame.

Likewise 'Just Like Me' on 'Slim Shady', which is both personal and contextually related to this anti-role model persona.

Like Busta Rhymes and, I'd argue, having bought and sold 'Stankonia', Outkast, he is a singles artist, with each album containing about 50% quality, 50% dreck.

Great singles artist = pop phenomenon, though. Mind you that 'Mama...' one recently was dogshit.
 
 
No star here laces
13:10 / 14.01.03
Okay - first off the 'quote' in my first post is not a literal quote - I think she expressed it better.

But the point being, if you examine most of Eminem's songs the recurring themes are: "what I am saying on this record is not who I am" (indeed this theme runs through everything he does - from his videos to his aliases to his album titles); "why do you care about what I say on record anyway?" and "celebrity (including me) is a distraction from how fucked up your lives are".

I think that this does amount to something of a coherent "philosophy" or at least a consistent message. And I don't care if Evil Monty and the Business Cards (the band from whose ashes Coldwater Suplex arose) did it in 1985 - Eminem managed to say all this in a way that sold millions of records. Smith identifies this and his extraordinary talent with words as the focus of her article.

The point of that quote, then, is that the word 'nigga' has to do with Eminem tangentially in that he protests (very topically for us brits) that to complain about the language and stories used by him (and any other rapper or popular entertainer) is to wilfully divert attention away from deeper and more significant problems in society (see the So Solid crew thread for details...).

This does make him vastly different from Marilyn Manson, who even himself would admit that musically he brings nothing new to the party. Eminem on the other hand couples a lethally sharp wit with acute observations, great storytelling and an overwhelmingly postmodern self-consciousness. The offensiveness is merely a distraction that he cynically and openly exploits in order to sell more records - and then tells us he is doing this to sell even more records:

"No I'm not the first king of controversy
I am the worst thing since Elvis Presley
to do black music so selfishly
and used it to get myself wealthy"

Ha! And then go and release a film about himself, except in the film he fails instead of succeeds? Even better!
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:36 / 14.01.03
In your reading of Eminem, there's an unresolved tension would be between the Eminem that:

"protests that to complain about the language and stories used by him is to wilfully divert attention away from deeper and more significant problems in society"

and the Eminem that:

....[uses] offensiveness [as] a distraction that he cynically and openly exploits in order to sell more records

Or to put it another way, why would someone who cared about how the obsession with celebrities among the people distracts them from how fucked up things are, want to become a celebrity?

If Eminem cared so much about "significant problems in society", should he be "exploiting" the exact same thing that distracts attention away from those problems for his own personal gain?

It's nice to call this having-one's-cake-and-eating-it-too justification for one's existance "post-modern irony," but it really does boil down to cheap cynicism about the market.

Even if Eminem' skills are top-notch and original (and I'll leave others to debate that), his product is no more important or relevant than N-sync, Britney, etc., and one suspects that he knows this, which is why he spends a baffling amount of time on these easy targets.

And you spoiled the ending of 8 Mile for me, fool! (which actually makes me want to see it more, to tell the truth, as I was under the impression that it was a white-washing hagiography of the man).
 
 
No star here laces
14:01 / 14.01.03
Everyone knows that about 8 mile! (I've not seen it either btw, just picked this up from all the press...)

But sorry anyway.

As for the supposed conflict - I don't see why this is even a conflict? Is there some sort of artists' contract which says "thou shalt not talk about any issues unless you are actively combating them in real life?" I fuckin hope not, otherwise I expect to see Le Tigre shipped off to Saudi Arabia to confront the government on women's rights and Limp Bizkit beating up on the parents of adolescents across the entire US. This stance implies that Live Aid is the only acceptable model for pop music.

I suppose one can claim that Eminem's product is no more important than Britney's in much the same (pointless) way that one can claim that Ian McEwan's contribution to the literary canon is no more important than Tom Clancy's.

However if one were to discard indie snobbery I think it would be fairly apparent that the pop music landscape is utterly different post-Eminem to the pre-Eminem world, and infinitely more interesting.

Anyway, I don't want to turn this into an "Eminem's crap" "no he isn't" thread - anybody else read the article yet? Grant - can you post us a link to the whole thing?
 
 
Ethan Hawke
14:24 / 14.01.03
Is there some sort of artists' contract which says "thou shalt not talk about any issues unless you are actively combating them in real life?"
Of course not - but he's promoting and profitting off of the exact thing which he's decrying - it's the "Natural Born Killers" effect.

I don't want to turn this into an "Eminem's crap" "no he isn't" thread
I'm not saying his music is crap, and I'm certainly not coming at this from a "ooh eminem's mainstream therefore=crap" perspective. I'm not sure how you get that from what I've written. I'm just trying to debate his "sociological significance" in a cold-blooded manner.

The extraordinary thing about Eminen is his race - let's be upfront about this. He's talented, sure, but the reason he's important is that he's a talented white guy. And even though he's self-aware enough to label himself the new Elvis, he still hasn't come to grips or addressed what that means. What that means is, as a white rapper, he gets played on "aggressive rock" radio stations (along with the Beastie Boys) that don't touch black artists. What that means is, MTV will edit an awards broadcast to excise a contretemps wherein he calls Moby a "little girl." What that means is, his crimes (committed after he became famous, too) are passed over with out any sense of moral probation ( well, I suppose Jay-Z brazened out his stabbing case too.)

Does he have to address these issues to be a great performer? No, of course not. Does he have to address these issues to be "socially significant"? Yeah, I think so. And until he does, he's just pop product with a mommy complex.

As for the pop music landscape is utterly different post-Eminem to the pre-Eminem world, what's different? What has Eminem wrought that's so earthshaking? Has he spawned a new style, other than one of hair? I'm curious to how you would describe the impact that he's had on the pop world.
 
 
some guy
14:29 / 14.01.03
Has everyone here actually listened to an Eminem song? Not heard it on the radio, but listened to the lyrics? I'd wager no, based on the comment earlier about the lyric "Two trailer park girls go round the outside," and another poster's assumption that 8 Mile is a hagiography.

The "trailer park girls" example is especially relevant here, because Without Me uses it to subvert our expectations of rap music, leading the listener to expect another "typical misogynistic rap song" only to pull the rug out from under us and moving into a biting cultural critique about the Eminem character.

I get the feeling that everyone has an opinion about Eminem, but that many of those opinions are ill-informed.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
14:48 / 14.01.03
Genius/Gza says otherwise, Flux.

can you footnote this for me, Duncan? i'd like to see what yr referencing here.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:00 / 14.01.03
I still have a cutting from NME from around when 'The W' came out in which GZA talks approvingly about Eminem's rhyming - no idea if it's online, though.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:25 / 14.01.03
Either way, I don't see why the fact that GZA likes Eminem has much to do with anything. It seems like a majority of people in hip hop like and respect Eminem. Well, fine. That's good. Eminem deserves respect.

It doesn't change my opinion that the GZA stomps all over the guy in terms of being an MC.

I'm not sure if yr talking about me, Laurence, but I've got all of Eminem's records, including a lot of his bootleg freestyles and his pre-Dre material. I'm pretty familiar with the guy's discography, music, and lyrics.
 
 
No star here laces
16:19 / 14.01.03
Footnote: the "trailer park girls" line is a reference to the Malcolm Maclaren and the World Famous Supreme Team hit "Buffalo Gals" which uses the repeated line "Buffalo gals go round the outside". This record is, of course, the earliest example of white people in something approximating hip hop, and featuring another master of exploiting controversy. Just thought I'd mention...

Todd - I still don't buy your argument - what issues did Elvis or Jimi Hendrix address? Does that mean they weren't significant?
 
 
some guy
17:04 / 14.01.03
Flux - not thinking of you there, don't worry.

Byron - yep, the trailer park girls thing is brilliant. Not only for the McLaren thing, but also for the way it touches on our expectations of Eminem (white trash), the song's examination of the Jerry Springeresque Eminem character (Who populates Jerry Springer show? Trailer park girls), and finally the audience expectation that a rap song will be concerned with near-pornographic sex (the mysterious innuendo inherent in the lyric).

Four hits and that's just the first line.
 
 
The Falcon
17:17 / 14.01.03
Flyboy's got it (the reference.)

Gza was trying to rap like Emininem during the interview, and couldn't. He expressed awe at the guy's skills.

Something like that.

'Liquid Swords' is a far finer and more consistent album than any of Mr. Mathers', but Eminem is still (obviously) a far larger phenomenon than any of the Wu-Tang, and can cram an amazing amount of syllables into each line. The only member of the Wu who comes close, and possibly exceeds Marshall, in the latter respect, is the Rza.

And try explaining 'Domestic Violence' off the 'Bobby Digital' album/quasi-soundtrack to people - Jesus! It irritates me no end that these inbuilt stereotypes of black people still exist.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:31 / 14.01.03
Why does it matter so much that Eminem a 'far bigger phenomenon' than the Wu? Isn't that a bit like saying "well, the Art Ensemble of Chicago and Ornette Coleman are cool, but Kenny G is a far greater phenomenon than either of them..."? What exactly are you trying to say there? I'm getting the same impression from Byron in this thread (see his Coldwater Suplex gag), and I've seen similar comments made in other threads here lately - just because an artist doesn't sell on a mass scale, does it really make them irrelevant? Is the mass popularity and media saturation that can only really come from being pimped by a huge corporation the only way an artist can be considered to have real 'importance' and influence? I really strongly disagree with that notion.
 
 
No star here laces
08:03 / 15.01.03
No, of course not Flux.

But on the other hand I feel very strongly that when an original artist like Eminem manages to sell millions of records and be adored by millions of people, there's probably a very good reason why.

Em is not Justin Timberlake - he makes challenging and intelligent music. But importantly he makes accessible challenging and intelligent music. And to me, that is truly great art. Any fuckwit can make a piece of conceptually obscure avant-garde crap that appeals to two students in Durham. What's difficult is to do something new and interesting and do it in a way that anyone can enjoy it. Hence the Coldwater Suplex gag. Secondly, how many MCs who are as popular as Eminem get as universal a love from other MCs? Ja Rule, DMX, hell even Jay-Z certainly don't, but no rapper worth his salt will belittle Eminem's skills and technique. Again, doesn't this tell you something? To appeal simultaneously to professional musicians and the guardians of a frequently recidivist culture and also to the masses implies you've got something pretty unique going on.
 
 
A
12:10 / 15.01.03
(trainspotting tangent)

Blondie's Rapture was released in 1980, making it an earlier example of "white people in something approximating hip hop" than Buffalo Gals by a good two or three years. There may well be even earlier examples than that.

(/trainspotting tangent)
 
  

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