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How Do You Know?

 
 
—| x |—
04:55 / 04.10.01
Or how do I know, because lately I'm feeling that I don't know much, and even that is silently slithering away!

<Pauses, shuffels a little, then tries to fill the silence>

Well, so much for the funny introduction.

<Clears throat>

What I'd like to ask all of you is: how do we come to have knowledge, when is knowledge justified, and how do we know that our justified knowledge adequately represents reality?

And I hope that this is not too broad or boring a question to be discussed among the fine people of Barbelith. Personally, I'm a little lost, but methinks, "The Head Shop is ok for some philosophy, right?" Can anyone help pull me out of a sceptical cesspool I've fallen into?
 
 
Perfect Tommy
05:27 / 04.10.01
I am not a frequent Head Shop poster. But I did live with a philosophy graduate for about a year and a half. So my answer is, "Because it's a pain in the ass to have to prove that you exist to discuss the latest 'X-Files' or decide what type of bread to buy."

Oddly enough, I'm not being wholly flippant. I just splattered hot spaghetti sauce on myself. I said "Ow!" and jumped a little. If my former roommate spilled hot spaghetti sauce on himself, he would do roughly the same thing, so while I don't know for sure that we experience the same sensations, I perceive similar reactions, and so I at least know that the false signals being sent to my brain-in-a-jar have SOME sort of consistency.

There's probably lots of reasons why that's incorrect and a cop-out; but I'm still glad I moved out of that apartment.
 
 
SMS
06:20 / 04.10.01
I just wrote a long reply, which was lost in a flash.

The gyyst is that we arrange our experiences into some useful fashion. This is how we know what we know.
 
 
tom-karika nukes it from orbit
06:58 / 04.10.01
I don't know how I know. I think it's just a habit.
 
 
.
06:58 / 04.10.01
There are many attempts to define knowledge in the history of philosophy. but before i describe one, ask yourself whether you need to know that you know P in order to know P. if you can know without knowing how you know, then you don't need to worry about any of this. of course, you could never be sure that you really did know P or not, unless you knew how you knew it.

so here's the basic four part definition of knowledge, used in a rough way by most philosophers (P means a proposition, S is any subject or person):

For P to be an item of knowledge
1) S must believe that P
2) P must be true
3) S must be justified in believing that P
4) the justification must attach to the truth or facts of the matter in the correct way.

so what does this mean?
well, 1 is necessary since if you know something, you must also believe it. 2 is necessary because if P isn't true, then S has a mistaken belief, rather than knowledge.

3 is where it gets interesting... since someone could believe something that is true, but not know about it, if they believe it for the wrong reasons, or no reason at all. if that is the case, it is just an accidental true belief rather than knowledge.

4 is the most controversial point. Gettier, a philosopher who did nothing for the rest of his life, made this point, which destroyed the three point definition that had been around since plato:
one can have a justified true belief, and still not have knowledge, in the following way...
jones comes into the office everyday and looks at the clock on the wall everyday, and everyday the clock shows the correct time. one day jones comes into the office at exactly nine o'clock, looks at the clock which says 9:00 exactly, and believes, justifiably (due to the previous observations of the clock), that it is nine exactly. so this is a justified true belief. unfortunately the clock stopped at 9:00pm the previous night, so had jones have come in a minute earlier or later, he would still have the same belief, but it wouldn't be true. thus the facts in the world have to connect to the justified belief in the correct way. what is the correct way? well, no-one can agree on that yet
 
 
grant
00:48 / 05.10.01
Short Zen answer:

How does who know?
 
 
—| x |—
04:07 / 05.10.01
quote:Originally posted by grant:
Short Zen answer:

How does who know?


Crunkled be bridges.
Fish from dry beds!
 
 
—| x |—
05:12 / 05.10.01
Well sure we really exist, even if only brain's in vats. Hell this internet thing is bringing us closer all the time, so why not!

%Why not indeed!%

So we arrange our experiences into an order that allows for co-habitation with others, except for philosophers, which aren't so fun to live with?

OK.

Our knowledge might be habitual, yes, I think I can see that. Habitual how though? Psychologically, biologically or even sub-atomically, maybe?

And all this ties into iivxx's premise 4), but I'll leave that aside for now.

There are so many worlds that people live in. Here on Barbelith we see only a fraction, but with somewhat of a broad scope. We've got science and arts, politics and personalities, magic and human interaction, and much, much more.

How do we ever know who lives where, I mean, in what sort of world?

How do we ever show P is true because that seems to rely on 4). How do we establish the truth of P with out a previous justified belief in the truth of P?

What is true of the world other than our habituated beliefs regarding our experience, which appear to rest on no foundation other than our habituated beliefs of our experience? And which world are these habituated beliefs justified in?

I'm sorry, I'm into this terrible mire of scepticism and I can't stop!

I’m going to go do some fishing and try to switch my mind off. And I’m certainly not going fishing with any philosophers!
 
 
Blank Faced Avatar
05:57 / 05.10.01
I'd like to know, " How do we come to have knowledge, when all we do is watch tv and read dodgy internet info all the time ? ".
Really, tho', I'd class certainty of info. with free will - very hard to prove, very easy to experience. Some mind-models imply that we are posessed of complex innate knowledge .. if you were born with absolute info like that, maybe all future knowledge is built on it.
 
 
.
05:57 / 05.10.01
certain mathmatical knowledge seems to be excluded from the four part analysis i give above. is there a sense in which some maths is innate knowledge?
 
 
Solaris
10:37 / 05.10.01
You can never know anything but a crude biological set of impressions. We are all inifinitely ignorant, if you take on board the maths. Especially Rizla Year Zero.
 
 
SMS
00:22 / 08.10.01
quote:Originally posted by iivix:
certain mathmatical knowledge seems to be excluded from the four part analysis i give above. is there a sense in which some maths is innate knowledge?


That's interesting, but I'm not sure if it's entirely true.

1)S must believe that P

That still holds. P is an if/then statement equipped with definitions and so on.

2)P must be true
That holds as well.

3)S must be justified in believing P
I can still believe a mathematical truth for the wrong reasons. "If I assume that all sets can be well-ordered, then it follows from the fact that there are seven days in the week that, given any set, there always exists a set with some greater cardinality." I think all of that is true, except that 7 days in the week has nothing to do with the rest of it.

4) the justification must attach to the truth or facts of the matter in the correct way.

This is a requirement for which some maths may be exempt. That is, if we always assume that numbers have exactly the same additive properties that we were taught in elementary school, then 6+2=8 always. But some mathematical system could be designed holding an element of randomness exactly modeling the case of the clock.
 
 
SMS
06:26 / 10.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Solaris:
You can never know anything but a crude biological set of impressions. We are all inifinitely ignorant, if you take on board the maths. Especially Rizla Year Zero.


Why do we not call these crude biological impressions knowledge? If it is so that we are all infinitely ignorant, then there must be something called knowledge that we as people simply never have. If we never have it, then there must be some other way in which this knowledge exists. So what is it?

Is it, maybe, the exact representation of the 'external' world in information/compressed form? An example would be two apples being, represented by the concept of being and the concept of quantity. But these concepts fail in some way, so they are not knowledge. Maybe only perfect concepts, perfectly representing the whole thing is true knowledge.

I'm trying to get at the heart of your view, but I feel like I'm missing the mark.
 
 
Solaris
07:03 / 10.10.01
Naaaaaaaah...not really. I'm bored now. Anyone fancy a pint?
 
 
Rage
19:41 / 10.10.01
quote:2) P must be true

Who's to say what's "true" and what isn't? Give me a break.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
19:50 / 10.10.01
quote:Originally posted by iivix:
certain mathmatical knowledge seems to be excluded from the four part analysis i give above. is there a sense in which some maths is innate knowledge?


Mathmatical knowldege must be mapped to the real world, introducing the uncertainty of human perception. Furthermore, Godel proved that any mathmatical system of proofs must be either incomplete (not able to determine the truth or falsehood of certain statements) or contradictory.

What does this have to do with human consciousness? A lot, according to Douglas Hofstadter and his estimation of intelligence as a recursive function. Next time you want your mind blown, read Hofstadter’s “Godel, Escher, Bach” and/or “Metamagical Themas”.
 
 
.
21:54 / 10.10.01
quote:Originally posted by Rage:


Who's to say what's "true" and what isn't? Give me a break.


Truth doesn't depend on what one says of it, it is an external factor that ensures the existence of the thing of which one wants to have knowledge of. Your reply suggests a certain "fashionable" cynicism that does nothing to help the philosophical endevour. A cowardly attitude even, taken when one feels that one's "truths" are in danger of being exposed as logically inconsistent.
 
 
Dao Jones
12:19 / 11.10.01
quote:Truth doesn't depend on what one says of it,How interesting. That would be a remarkable advance in thinking, if you can back it up. Would you care to try, or shall we sit back and watch you eat crow? quote:it is an external factor that ensures the existence of the thing of which one wants to have knowledge of.A charming naive realism or an outmoded idiocy from textbooks which are mostly used as doorstops. You posit an external, objective reality whose solidity allows an objective mind to perceive it fully and without cultural bias or observational tint. This is impossible, and your insistence fatuous. Read something written in the last two decades. quote:Your reply suggests a certain "fashionable" cynicism that does nothing to help the philosophical endevour.Whereas yours betrays a rhetorical arrogance matched only by your fashionable ignorance. quote:A cowardly attitude even, taken when one feels that one's "truths" are in danger of being exposed as logically inconsistent. Belief is error. Truth is fiction. Your assertions are tedious, predictable, and ultimately untenable. Accusations of cowardice have no place in philosophical debate. Prove your many and marvellous claims, child, or go back to your 101 lectures and request some additional reading.

Hi, honey, I'm home.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:23 / 11.10.01
Numfar! Do the dance of joy!
 
 
Rage
22:27 / 11.10.01
If it's fashionable to question "truth" you might benefit from jumping on the bandwagon. It sure beats sitting around with your pinky finger in your asshole and counting to 10 with your eyes closed in more ways than one, genius.
 
 
Lost Nauth
00:33 / 12.10.01
*ack* I am but a young lad and can only dream of philosophy 101 Nonetheless, coincidentally I've been talking about this whole truth business with some friends for the past couple weeks. Mostly it was from a religious standpoint (the truth about god and life after death) but it soon sprawled out to cover reality and the universe. I pretty much agree with the idea that we're all equally ignorant. I'm very frustrated lately thinking how everything I 'know' could be a lie or an illusion and we can never really 'know' the truth and that everything really is based on faith and that is the only bit of truth in the universe. It sucks because I try to find truth in an objective sense and look beyond God and the known universe but finally I decided that any 'true' answers, if they're even out there, can never be attained because we can never know what doesn't exist which doesn't mean it doesn't, but that it's just impossible<--I hate that word. Oh well, forgive the rambling of a young 16-year old, just a byproduct of american education
 
 
SMS
03:11 / 12.10.01
Godel sounds interesting. I have heard of this proof before, but I haven't seen it, so I obviously haven't been able to integrate it into my thinking.

But. If you begin with the premise that you have experiences, then define what is real as those collection of things whose existence best describes your experience, then one of those things that seems to pop into existence is the pure truth---that truth which is true independent of an observer. But, while it fits the criterion for existence, one thing does fail to exist, which is a mechanism for determining precisely what the pure truth is.

But this pure truth is not the only thing that pops into existence. Another is a maleable truth.

Both these truths are meant to describe the whole of the universe. But they are different descriptive models. But if you take a set of models containing pure or maleable truths, then some model containing all these models should be one governed by pure truths.
It does so in the following way: It describes the form of the maleable truth, and the manner in which it changes. It describes the relationship between various models.

Questioning "truth" does not seem to be especially valuable, although I would always encourage questioning the truth of a statement.

quote: You posit an external, objective reality whose solidity allows an objective mind to perceive it fully and without cultural bias or observational tint. This is impossible, and your insistence fatuous. Read something written in the last two decades.

I don't think that iivix said this, though he's free to correct me if I'm wrong. Simply because we take truth to exist doesn't mean we assume we can ultimately discover it. Instead, we search for more accurate approximations. As Feinman said, science is the act of proving ourselves wrong as fast as possible. That is, we would take our models to be "wrong" in the sense that they could be better. The limit of all these wrong models, though, is the right one. Or, if there is no limit, then the best of all these models is the right one, with inclusion of uncertainties, and so on.

Dao Jones, Rage. Don't be so angry with us. We all love you here. Please accept a big virutal hug from me.
 
 
YNH
03:16 / 12.10.01
quote:Originally posted by the Humble Crab:
I'd like to know, " How do we come to have knowledge, when all we do is watch tv and read dodgy internet info all the time ? ".


That's part of how we come to have knowledge, sweetie. My favorite justification for the, er, justification is conversation, especially when one knows the word another individual is searching for or accurately finishes anothers sentence/thought.
 
 
.
14:37 / 12.10.01
quote:Originally posted by All-Loving SMatthewStolte:
"You posit an external, objective reality whose solidity allows an objective mind to perceive it fully and without cultural bias or observational tint. This is impossible, and your insistence fatuous. Read something written in the last two decades. "

I don't think that iivix said this, though he's free to correct me if I'm wrong. Simply because we take truth to exist doesn't mean we assume we can ultimately discover it.


cheers SMS. this is correct. i certainly did not posit any sort of naive realism. i certainly do not deny subjective bias placed upon an individuals body of knowledge. BUT that does not entail that truth does not exist, merely that some aspects of reality may be inaccessable to a given individual. to question truth is unproductive, and frankly uninteresting. if a statement about something is true, all that means is that some corresponding item in the world exists in the way set out in that statement. big deal. on the other hand, all you trendy post-modern bullshitters denying the existence of truth, or denying the value of truth, are lead into self-contradiction. post-modern critiques like this are ultimately abandoning rationality in favour of sophistry.
 
 
agapanthus
15:46 / 12.10.01
iivix wrote:
quote:Truth doesn't depend on what one says of it, it is an external factor that ensures the existence of the thing of which one wants to have knowledge of.

Your reply suggests a certain "fashionable" cynicism that does nothing to help the philosophical endevour. A cowardly attitude even, taken when one feels that one's "truths" are in danger of being exposed as logically inconsistent.



Righto, so statements about truth, have nothing to do with truth. So, iivix, you are making statements about/ concerning ...?

Are you also saying that 'truth' ensures the existence of the object(s) of knowledge, that you want to have knowledge of ? Sounds dangerously close, in theory, to Nietzche's "will to power" - but, hang on he's blindly followed by fashionable, trendy cowards who place logical inconsistency and sophistry above rationalityand fearless philosophical endeavour.

iivix also wrote:
quote: if a statement about something is true, all that means is that some corresponding item in the world exists in the way set out in that statement.

big deal. on the other hand, all you trendy post-modern bullshitters denying the existence of truth, or denying the value of truth, are lead into self-contradiction. post-modern critiques like this are ultimately abandoning rationality in favour of sophistry.


iivix are you saying that the semantic and grammatical construction of a statement of truth, gains its 'truthfulness' by a 'correspondence' between the nature of the linguistic construction and the true/real world? If so, the question of this correspondence is central to Saussurean linguistics - another foundation of cowardly post-modernism.

Go and foucault yourself.
 
 
.
22:00 / 12.10.01
quote:Originally posted by agapanthus:
Go and foucault yourself.


LOL

"Righto, so statements about truth, have nothing to do with truth. So, iivix, you are making statements about/ concerning ...?"

again, i never said that statements about truth are unrelated to truth, rather that the truth of the statement is something independent from the statement itself.
sorry for not making myself more clear in this thread, i feel that my sloppy definitions have been a little confusing.

always fun to argue with intelligent people though.

[ 13-10-2001: Message edited by: iivix ]
 
  
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