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The sexual structuring of human society

 
 
satax
18:44 / 29.09.01
"Hogamus, higamus, men are polygamous"
"Higamus, hogamus, women are monogamous"

Men want Quantity
Women want Quality

I started wondering about some basic things. Marriage, assertiveness, and the natural and 'original' order.

The utopian human (socio-sexual) society if you ask me, should be something like this:

No marriages.
Women living in groups, educating and taking care of the children/youth, and each other.
Men living more or less solitary.

Men can't live together like women can. It's in our genes to be assertive towards each other.
Personally I can't stand the company of other men around me for too long, not even friends(but less so than strangers of course). I enjoy being alone, or in the company of women, because there's a lot less(usually) of the assertive tension 'in the air'.

(I also wonder why so many men value their 'mates' and friends over their wife btw, if you're one of them, tell me why)

As a man, you can really love a/your girl as a 'soulmate'. But no matter what, sooner or later you'll want to fuck some other girl, perhaps maybe only in your head. It's our nature, trying to deny it is bad.

Sooo...

Why do girls in highschool always(usually) like the bullies or richest/most intelligent/toughest/best guy?
I think it is because it's in their genes too. Maybe their nature says (I'm meaning unconsciously) that they'll be pregnant, so they'll need the best guy they can get coz they'll be stuck with the kid.

Assertiveness in nature ... what does it have to do with it.
Chimps and gorillas (and many more animals) have an alpha male. Only the alpha male reproduces(actually the female chimps fake their loyalty and fuck the nice non-alpha males in secret, like someone poste earlier).
Suppose the alpha male stays on top for a couple mating seasons(usually they do). All the offspring will have the male's DNA. When they grow up, the only viable mating options will be with half-siblings, which is exactly what they do, and actually prefer. Chimpansees prefer to mate with their half-siblings over chimps from another group.
But always with a sibling from a different mother - the father is always the same.
Looking at that pattern, one can conclude that the male DNA (and other unknown
factors) are favored to stay in the group, as a sort of inbreeding. The female DNA (and rest) however, should be differentiated.

Thus, assertiveness in males serves the purpose of selecting only the very best.

---
This is speculation, but I think that the promiscue assertiveness mechanism directly influences evolution.
As they say in the army 'be all you can be'.
The alpha male has obviously expanded his limits, and I think that whenever he has done something that could be classified as 'revolutionary', like using a tool to kill his opponent, that at that moment, the semen he produces will have a modified DNA to reflect that intelligent change. I think there is a mechanism that maybe explains why certain species can adapt to their environment in 1 generation. Of course it also happens in the female egg, but I just do think that the mechanism of assertiveness makes it happen quicker, which could also explain why male DNA in humans was proven to (have) mutate(d) a lot faster than in women. The classical evolutional theorem that states DNA comes first before using a said ability (evolved intelligence) isn't correct imo. It's a 2 way interface, the mind influences DNA to 'adapt/mutate' to a change dictated by the mind, and vice-versa.
---

Anyhow, this mechanism is reflected in the bible. Abraham's wife, and only 'viable' offspring, was through his half-sister Sarai. Same happened with Isaak, although it wasn't his half-sister, but close.
(A Jew still isn't a real Jew as long as his mother isn't Jewish btw)

So why is marriage and a 1 on 1 relationship unhealthy? Because it goes in against the natural order.
The natural order says that in a species where the male is physically dominant, the females live in groups, and the males fight each other, so only the very best gets to reproduce.


How did we get into our current society's make up then?
I think somewhere in the pre-civilization past, men acquired intelligence, and being superiour physically, agreed to divide the women among each other, so they didn't have to fight each other as much over women any more, and could concentrate on other things, like conquering others(war). The fact that so many women in the world are still handled as merchandise is a reflection of this.
(No I'm not a feminist)
(This might also be tied in with the emergence of men-only secret societies)

But we're humans no, and we have (higher) feelings of love, compassion, and such, why should we fight each other in assertive drifts?

Well, to go back to the chimps, it is the females there who secretly mate with the nice sensitive chimps. Notice that there it is the females who selected the mating partner, contrary to the classical male enforced sex.
If you stretch it further to human society, one could say that it should be the women who should select who to mate with.
Maybe we reached a state in our evolution where physical agression and assertiveness is the lesser evolving factor, and where the use of intelligence and invention is the motivating principle behind assertive behaviour. And so a men should do his best to try to 'earn' a women's love?


Thus I say:
To minimize war, we should abolish the artificial marriage structure, and women should band together in groups again, and protect each other.

And maybe you think this sounds nazistic/rasict/etc...
But differentiating the male DNA widely must be detrimental to the species, it's not natural. Only the best should reproduce. Granted this doesn't sound really humane, but maybe the future will bring answers to that with gen tech.

So what are your thoughts about this?
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
20:04 / 29.09.01
quote:Originally posted by satax:


So what are your thoughts about this?



My thoughts are the following:

a) you clearly have had limited exposure to people, and don't have a firm grasp of variation of personalities within both genders, let alone those who are homosexual, bisexual, or pansexual. I can't take any of this very seriously when yr overly willing to divide everyone across clearcut gender lines and throw the very concepts of individuality and pluralism out the window. Not to mention feminism---are you trying to tell me that you've NEVER met a particularly aggressive woman, or a man almost entirely lacking the ability to be assertive? (You've clearly never met my sister, or any of her boyfriends...! ) And when you throw in a bunch of pseudoscience to back up what is essentially the same view on differences between genders in the western world that lame comedians like Tim Allen have built careers on, you just sound like that much more of a fool.

b) Yes, you do sound fascist, becuase yr ideas do not allow people to MAKE THEIR OWN FUCKING CHOICES. How does segregation make anyone a better person? I mean, really! Eugenics was an ugly outfit when the Nazis tried it on, and it doesn't look any better on you.

c) I can't possibly imagine why anything you suggest would result in LESS war, conflict, etc. I think it would only result in a great deal more, as it is essentially a major step backwards in societal evolution.

Still, it's interesting to see someone cobble together some of the worst ideas of the 20th century to build a model for the 21st...

[ 29-09-2001: Message edited by: Flux = Rad ]
 
 
Pin
09:40 / 30.09.01
Agreed. Why are you saying how great our ability to adapt to our enviroment is, if we all just revert to how we where a long time ago? Evolution, be it physical or social, is done for a reason, so hey backtrack?

Beyond all this, what you propose would be wholly unimplicatable in the mobdern world. First of all, think of the paperwork it'd produce. And then think about the fact that most people aren't suited to their gender roles. I'd suck in a male group. I'd just giggle at the people fighting the whole time. Face it, we've evolved beyond this point (except for paperwork), and we have no need for primative social structures.

Is it just me or is the whole purpose of your post just to justify your love of hitting other men and having no social skills?
 
 
satax
09:40 / 30.09.01
You really feel the need to throw in this kind of remarks? It should have been obvious that I'm not categorizing everyone, but referring to a general image. I'm well aware of the individual and how everyone differs.
Everyone is free no?
"Live and let live."
"Do not judge"
I try to live by those 2 statements.

All socio-political aspects aside, my view is this:
If something is natural, it's (usually) harmless and benevolent, even if we do not understand yet why.
If something goes against nature, there is usually a reason why it's not the standard in nature.
We have the ability to overcome nature to a certain degree, but that means we'll have to accept responsiblity for our actions that aren't with the natural order.

Before you ask, I'll state it:
Yes, I do think that heterosexuality is the only natural way. That doesn't mean I'm homophobic. I won't go into how our environment, genetical makeup, brains, etc. make us all sexually different, however if it comes to reproductory aspects, there is a clear cut natural line that makes it so homosexuals can't reproduce without the aid of technology.

quote: I can't possibly imagine why anything you suggest would result in LESS war, conflict, etc. I think it would only result in a great deal more, as it is essentially a major step backwards in societal evolution.
You really think we have a high societal civilization? The majority of the 'western' nations here are patriarchal police states. It's not better anywhere else on the world though, in fact it's worse in many other countries were women have less rights.
Men aren't nurturers(yes I know you always have the exceptions). I grew up in a very patriarchal family, and my best friend had a very matriarchal family. I have many muslim friends who grew up in a patriarchal family, and others who grew up in a more liberal family. I know what it's like. I concluded that a matriarchal environment is usually more loving and caring, which is usually better for the development of the child.
I'm not even mentioning the many cases of abuse and rape that happen, and they're usually all enforced by men no?

quote:Is it just me or is the whole purpose of your post just to justify your love of hitting other men and having no social skills?
Whatever.
 
 
satax
09:40 / 30.09.01
In fact, I wasn't even aware of the term 'eugenics'(english/american isn't my native language).
I'm a research on it now.
At first sight, it sounds like there is a grain of truth in it, but like everything it shouldn't be enforced.
And if you think that mating half-siblings(same father) is 'pseudoscience' then explain me why so many ancient dynasties practiced it? And like I said, many other mammals too. There has to be a reason to assertiveness. I think it has to do with natural selection, if you can come up with a better idea tell me.
 
 
satax
09:40 / 30.09.01
I quickly browsed through some eugenics pages, they do seem to have a point about traits and dna, but their method for achievement is in nearly all instances fundamentally wrong. Enforcing it is bad. We should let it go the natural way.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
09:40 / 30.09.01
quote:Originally posted by satax:
You really think we have a high societal civilization? The majority of the 'western' nations here are patriarchal police states. It's not better anywhere else on the world though, in fact it's worse in many other countries were women have less rights. .


Yes, I think that there are large pockets of western civilization that is very highly evolved, and that the overwhelming majority of people (not just those in Western Civilization, even) who just want to live their lives and be left the hell alone. They don't want their lives to be made difficult, or to be harmed, and they don't want to do anything to anyone else. It's the minority of people who want to impose their will on other people who are the ones who cause the problems in the world, across the board. These people are not exclusively male or female. These people aren't always wrong.

And I don't see anything wrong with having officers of the law, or laws. Yr letting your life experience color too much of your world, your view is too narrow. Look at the bigger picture. Not everything is broken down along gender lines, and if you look at it, Western culture is moving in a direction that is neither patriarchal OR matriarchal.

I'm going to just pretend that you didn't suggest inbreeding, alright? It's easier that way.
 
 
agapanthus
09:40 / 30.09.01
Satax, your argument seems to run this way:
Heterosexuality, and in particular the innate 'assertiveness' (don't you mean aggressiveness'?)of 'natural' males, precludes men from any 'nurtuting' societal roles, in your utopia. Based on ONEexample from 'nature' (chimps) you extrapolate the 'natural principle' that society should be based on your version of 'natural' sexual reproduction, i.e. the most aggresive male's semen should dominate the species, while the lucky recipients of said DNA, should form nuturing, caring non-monogamous groups, allowing the blokes to play footy etc .Because it's only natural. Is this a fair gloss?

Why do you stop at chimps for your founding principle? What about Bees, ants, plants, bacteria . . . ? Surely our understanding of these living beings, and their reproduction, could also be classified as being equally as natural as the reproductive practices of chimps?

Also, you assert, I think, natural = good/right, unnatural = bad/wrong. Thus homosexuality is unnatural, because it's . . . unnatural, and therefore wrong/bad. Again, I ask you, what is this 'naturalness' of which you speak? If nature is so benevolent and harmonious, what do you make of earthquakes, cyclones, viruses ? How natural is 'biology', science, language, medicine - all seemingly the basis of the knowledge upon which you draw your conclusions for your utopia.

Nature/culture is an artificial divide - a binary opposition that is ultimately impossible to fully seperate without one term bleeding into the other.

For example the natural world of medieval Europe was largely refracted through Aristotle's physics: circular motion was perfect, heavenly, while the rectilinear motion of objects on earth was corrupt; all biology was governed by its final cause (teleology), i.e. the end result of a chicken egg, the chicken, 'pulled' the egg toward its ultimate potential, like some force pulling on a rope. Aristotle's physics was 'nature' for educated medieval Europe. Are we more empirical, more scientifically rational now, and therefore know the truth about the natural world, in comparison to the 'obviously cultural' paradigm of the Aristotelian worldview? Or, are we now living in an equally 'cultural' set of knowledge systems through which we come to know the 'natural' world? I doubt that anyone really knows the answer to these questions.
Satax, your version of 'Social Darwinism' (survival of the genes of the most aggresive male, structured around 'earthly' mothers and concubines, where you imply 'punishment' for unnatural sexual 'deviants') needs a bit more thought.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
09:40 / 30.09.01
I think this 'argument' comes down to one question that I ask of Satax: If yr idea of having only 'alpha males' reproduce is so "natural", why doesn't it happen that way normally in all sorts of human cultures?

Just wanting to come up with a system to enforce 'natural laws' betrays its own intentions, doesn't it?
 
 
Cat Chant
09:40 / 30.09.01
quote:Originally posted by satax:
(No I'm not a feminist)


No shit.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:13 / 30.09.01
quote:Originally posted by satax:
I quickly browsed through some eugenics pages, they do seem to have a point about traits and dna, but their method for achievement is in nearly all instances fundamentally wrong. Enforcing it is bad. We should let it go the natural way.


Please explain to me your concept of 'natural eugenics'.
 
 
w1rebaby
15:49 / 30.09.01
quote:If something goes against nature, there is usually a reason why it's not the standard in nature.
We have the ability to overcome nature to a certain degree, but that means we'll have to accept responsiblity for our actions that aren't with the natural order.

I'm surprised at this "natural order" concept coming up. There is no "natural order". Nature is whatever happens in nature. There's no prescription or scale, like evolution - nothing is more "natural" than anything else, like no creature is more "evolved" than any other.

If suddenly everyone in the human race decided never to have sex again, that would be just as "natural" as if they didn't.

At least, that's the case if you exclude some sort of higher power, which I do.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:52 / 30.09.01
quote:Originally posted by satax:
Yes, I do think that heterosexuality is the only natural way. That doesn't mean I'm homophobic. I won't go into how our environment, genetical makeup, brains, etc. make us all sexually different, however if it comes to reproductory aspects, there is a clear cut natural line that makes it so homosexuals can't reproduce without the aid of technology.


So it's only natural to have sex if you're going to reproduce? Shit, that's where I've been going wrong...
 
 
bitchiekittie
09:28 / 01.10.01
even the most subtle behaviors in the household are picked up by children. if you really want to make any sort of difference in gender stereotyping youll have to start there. dont feed into the bullshit kids are already hearing daily, via advertisments, toys (trucks and fierce animals are for BOYS!, etc), other kids (youd be AMAZED the crap parents tell their children). even the most well-meaning grandparents will give kids a good old-fashioned heaping helping of garbage

ok, now Im just ranting
 
 
satax
09:28 / 01.10.01
quote:Yes, I think that there are large pockets of western civilization that is very highly evolved, and that the overwhelming majority of people (not just those in Western Civilization, even) who just want to live their lives and be left the hell alone. They don't want their lives to be made difficult, or to be harmed, and they don't want to do anything to anyone else. It's the minority of people who want to impose their will on other people who are the ones who cause the problems in the world, across the board. These people are not exclusively male or female. These people aren't always wrong.

Many people don't care too much about anything besides their little 'mini world' of family/friends/etc. If you gave power and money to those people, they would (ab)use it too. A real leader who has power should take care of those under his command, too many people don't do that.

quote:And I don't see anything wrong with having officers of the law, or laws. Yr letting your life experience color too much of your world, your view is too narrow. Look at the bigger picture.
I do, as long as there is money in the world the 'law' will be corrupt.
The bigger picture is that many people are unhappy and have accepted the life 'imposed' upon them. The world is going to shit, just take a look at the 'civilization' around us. It's all stone and metal, there used to be plants and animals.
quote:Not everything is broken down along gender lines, and if you look at it, Western culture is moving in a direction that is neither patriarchal OR matriarchal.
Which is a good thing

quote:Satax, your argument seems to run this way:
Heterosexuality, and in particular the innate 'assertiveness' (don't you mean aggressiveness'?)of 'natural' males, precludes men from any 'nurtuting' societal roles, in your utopia.

No, agressiveness is not the same.
quote:Based on ONEexample from 'nature' (chimps) you extrapolate the 'natural principle' that society should be based on your version of 'natural' sexual reproduction, i.e. the most aggresive male's semen should dominate the species, while the lucky recipients of said DNA, should form nuturing, caring non-monogamous groups, allowing the blokes to play footy etc .Because it's only natural. Is this a fair gloss?
Assertiveness combined with female selection isn't really the same as agressiviness. There are many different ways people are assertive between each other, just take a look at scientists and their pride, that classifies as it too.
Chimpansees aren't the only example, there's many more animals(yes bees too) not just mammals. I just don't feel like writing an essay documented with loads of proof, this is a discussion board after all.
I'm also not trying to get a radical point across as many of you seem to think. I only wanted to say that in nature, mating with half-siblings is favored, and that ancient dynasties also practiced it. Anyone can see that natural selection has something to do with it no?
There are many more things that I think are wrong too nowadays. For example, people who have severe genetic disorders or handicaps like Down's syndrome or siamese twins are kept alive. In nature the mother kills her offspring outright if it's deficient. As long as we don't have the technology to build a human being from scratch and completely understand medical/life technology, we shouldn't do such things.

quote:I think this 'argument' comes down to one question that I ask of Satax: If yr idea of having only 'alpha males' reproduce is so "natural", why doesn't it happen that way normally in all sorts of human cultures?
Just wanting to come up with a system to enforce 'natural laws' betrays its own intentions, doesn't it?

Most human cultures probably have the same origin. There was a larger eradicated culture spread around the world if you ask me. Not necessarily Atlantis, but there's just many things that don't fit, like pyramids all over the world, megalithic structures, etc etc.
 
 
deletia
09:28 / 01.10.01
Does anyone detect the slightest whiff of Laila?
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
11:31 / 01.10.01

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think this 'argument' comes down to one question that I ask of Satax: If yr idea of having only 'alpha males' reproduce is so "natural", why doesn't it happen that way normally in all sorts of human cultures?
Just wanting to come up with a system to enforce 'natural laws' betrays its own intentions, doesn't it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Most human cultures probably have the same origin. There was a larger eradicated culture spread around the world if you ask me. Not necessarily Atlantis, but there's just many things that don't fit, like pyramids all over the world, megalithic structures, etc etc.


How is this answer anything less than a baffling nonsequitor?

I'll try to ask again: If you feel that your ideas are so 'natural', can you explain to me why they just don't happen naturally anyway? Systems are man-made, and 'nature' overrides them - implementing a system implies that you are trying to work AROUND nature. What you are saying is 'natural' does not occur naturally among humans, it's the de facto reality. Anything else is conjecture..
 
 
satax
15:29 / 01.10.01
quote:I'll try to ask again: If you feel that your ideas are so 'natural', can you explain to me why they just don't happen naturally anyway? Systems are man-made, and 'nature' overrides them - implementing a system implies that you are trying to work AROUND nature. What you are saying is 'natural' does not occur naturally among humans, it's the de facto reality. Anything else is conjecture..
I don't really know why? So what, it's not because human cultures don't practice it that it's un-natural. By your logic, torture and slavery wouldn't have been abolished either.
 
 
agapanthus
17:45 / 01.10.01
Satax wrote:
quote: Many people don't care too much about anything besides their little 'mini world' of family/friends/etc. If you gave power and money to those people, they would (ab)use it too. A real leader who has power should take care of those under his command, too many people don't do that.

Please, I want you to be my real leader'cause its only natural.

Or, "Are you looking at me?" "Are you looking at me?" "Are YOUlooking at me?"

Or, come on Dude, let's go out to the carpark and sort this out, like chimps.
 
 
tag
11:00 / 02.10.01
regardless of all the logical falicies bobbing around, lets look at the lagistics of this situation.

there's limited space on earth. to make room for all of the asertive males to run around in the wild hunting and bopping each other over the head all the girls are going to have to exist in a fairly densly populated area. perhaps some sort of megacity (maybe laila will be queen?)!

then all of those males which were not stunned from head bopping would have to make runs into the city to impregnate women.

so far the best thing this idea seems good for is a reality tv game show? could be the big hit combining american gladiators with survivor island and hbo softporn!

then there's the problem of the kids. will the women in the city really be able to teach the boys what they are going to need to know to be men outside of the city?

oh, and some food for thought (in an extreme case to make an example): there are a lot of mens groups (which, as far as i'm aware of, are not just thin covers for homoerotic activiy) where a bunch of guys go on big man trips out into the wilderness and do very man things in close proximity to other men for a period of time. i havn't read any reports of them all beating up on each other. maybe men are learning to like to spend time together (when they aren't too in touch with their lizard-brain, on a constant look out for possible assertation onto their alpha-male turf)?
 
 
Sharkgrin
05:25 / 04.10.01
quote:Originally posted by agapanthus:
Satax wrote:
Or, come on Dude, let's go out to the carpark and sort this out, like chimps.

Brilliant, Aggy.
The last million years of evolution (and [hopefully]) brain development) often goes over my head.
I believe Satax is dead on about male aggression, territoriality, and chest-beating, at least on an international, political level.
 
 
Ganesh
11:37 / 04.10.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Correction:
Does anyone detect the slightest whiff of Laila?


Dunno. My Olfactometer's stuck on 'Paedo'.
 
 
000
18:43 / 07.10.01
quote:by SataxSo why is marriage and a 1 on 1 relationship unhealthy? Because it goes in against the natural order.
The natural order says that in a species where the male is physically dominant, the females live in groups, and the males fight each other, so only the very best gets to reproduce.


See http://www.10.waisays.com

What was first the chicken or the egg? The egg, out of every eggs comes a chicken but not every chicken can lay an egg.


 
 
Molly Shortcake
18:54 / 07.10.01
quote: Yes, I do think that heterosexuality is the only natural way..... however if it comes to reproductory aspects, there is a clear cut natural line that makes it so homosexuals can't reproduce without the aid of technology.

Nature is just a myth used to justify anything and everything under the sun, while creating an inhuman 'other'. A Television is no more 'unnatural' than a tree.
 
 
Ellis
20:16 / 07.10.01
What does Pansexual mean?

Flux=Rad mentions it and I have never heard the term before.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
20:48 / 07.10.01
my understanding of the word is that it takes one or two steps past being bisexual...

I've only read it a few times in assorted lefty pro-sex writing I've seen here and there (more than a few times in the Village Voice if I recall...)

I guess someone who would be pansexual would be someone who's willing to try more or less anything and happens to have willing partners for it all too.
 
  
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