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Lee Bowyer becomes a happy Hammer.

  
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
09:19 / 08.01.03
I can't believe he's moved to West Ham. Nor can Shekhar Bhatia

So, is Lee Bowyer a misunderstood victim of political correctness, or a nasty little thug who shoudl be shunned by all right-thinking folks?

and who will he replace, anyway? Trevor Sinclair on the right? Michael Carrick in the middle (a player who is finding some form, younger and a lot less evil)?
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
10:11 / 08.01.03
Lee Bowyer has a well-documented track record of racial abuse and physical violence, not just towards the Asian student he allegedly attacked, but there have been incidents both on and off the field where he has racially abused others. And at the risk of threadrot, this case is akin to Dennis Wise moving to Millwall...who saw that one coming? And I doubt that this will further diminish West Ham's popularity, they will always be everyone's favourite table-proppers.
 
 
Bear
10:21 / 08.01.03
Can't see him helping West Ham though, from reports he doesn't seem the nicest of guys it was him filmed attacking the guy in a nightclub toilet right?

On another note has anyone ever thought of a Barbemeet at a football game or aren't there enough fans for that, I've only been to see one game since I've been here (Wolves vs. Wimbeldon) and wouldn't mind seeing one of the larger clubs?
 
 
Fist Fun
10:32 / 08.01.03
He was found not guilty. Getting into drunken fights isn't really such a rare and frightful thing. It happens, he was a fool. Don't think he should be written of as a thug though. Leeds don't have a good record for supporting great players with bad press. Thankfully.

Don't think he will replace anyone really. Should look good alongside Cole and Sinclair and edge out players like Lomas to a squad role. West Ham really need something. Anything. Last time I saw them they were woeful.
 
 
illmatic
10:50 / 08.01.03
Being th most fairweather West Ham fan ever - I don't even know he's in the squad at the mo - I "phoned a friend":

I have very mixed feelings about Bowyer putting on a West Ham shirt. If West Ham get relegated it will be a financial disaster for the club. Not only will we lose players, but they will also lose some of their staff as other clubs have done that have been relegated. Signing Bowyer is a calculated risk. At his best he is a fantastic "goalscoring" midfielder which we desperately need, at his worst, he is no more than a common thug that would more than likely be behind bars if he didn't have the talent to be a top class footballer. ... No West Ham fan wants to see us go down and I hope that the author of that article isn't proved right when he says that some 'marginalised' fans will come out of the woodwork now that they've got 'one of their own' who believes in their racist rhetoric. West Ham must take the opportunity to make Lee Bowyer see that there will be some opposition to his signing, and reassure the Asian community that he wants to help the club he supported in his youth and that he'll do nothing to besmirch its good name and the work they are doing, which he supports. Even if its a bare-faced lie, its better than nothing.


Cheers Jeff!
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
10:50 / 08.01.03
Getting into drunken fights isn't really such a rare and frightful thing. It happens, he was a fool. Don't think he should be written of as a thug though.

No, drunken fights are sadly quite common, however, launching a random, unprovoked assault on someone just because their skin is darker than yours counts as thuggish behaviour, would you not agree?
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
10:51 / 08.01.03
Wow, that bold type is ace. Must practice more though.
 
 
Fist Fun
11:12 / 08.01.03
The only thing that should matter is Bowyer's ability on the field. As long as his off field behaviour does not affect his ability on it then I don't see any problems. Footballers are athletes not moral crusaders. Regarding Bowyer - he is a very good football player, he was found not guilty of a serious assault, and we don't really know anything else.

West Ham seem to have got a bargain just as they did with Di Canio and similarly Leicester with Collymore.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:22 / 08.01.03
Ah....Buk, I'm afraid that the suggestion that Leicester got a bargain with Collymore has pretty much destroyed any chance of taking your opinion on football seriously ever again.

Your point is, presumably, that Bowyer was found not guilty of a racially-motivated assault and should therefore not be tarred with the brush Hattie's Kitchen is wielding. This is in fact not entirely true. He has been found not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, I believe that the question of whether he is guilty on the balance of probabilities has yet to be explored. Then there's the incident in MacDonald's in the '94-95 season, of course...
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
11:26 / 08.01.03
He may have been found not guilty in this instance, but if you refer to Haus' link to the Guardian article, it isn't the first time that he has been abusive/aggressive to non-white people. In this instance, I would say that this counts for a lot when a club like West Ham is considering signing him as a player, no matter how good a player on the pitch he may be. But, like Leeds, they will probably gloss over these incidents to make him more appealing to the fans, which sucks.
 
 
Fist Fun
11:47 / 08.01.03
Fair enough, the point is that private lives and off-field behaviour shouldn't matter when we are talking about football. There seems to be an expectation that anyone who receives press coverage has to be a role model. We should expect footballers to be good at being footballers. If they aren't we can have have a go at them for that. Otherwise leave it up to whoever is responsible for punishing that type of infraction. Football clubs, the press, etc should not decide punishment.
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
11:47 / 08.01.03
I'm not suggesting that footballers should be expected to be 'moral crusaders' - if that was the case, NO-ONE would be playing football at a professional level. But I think this deserves a thread all of its own...
 
 
William Sack
12:01 / 08.01.03
A small detail. Bowyer was never charged with committing a racially aggravated assault. The prosecution did not proceed on the basis that race was a factor in the assault on the Asian victim - in fact I think they clarified that at the opening of the case. I *believe* that race is pleaded as a factor in the civil case, and this may or may not be proven in due course. However, I believe we can all agree that Bowyer is a nasty little scrote (probably a nasty racist little scrote), regardless of what judges or juries have to say on the issue.

Collymore is another. I seem to remember that the Villa fans gave him a hard time about beating up his girlfriend. But only after he had proved that in front of goal he couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo. If he had been playing well, he would have been hero with the Holte End regardless of his violence towards women. I suspect it will be similar for Bowyer at West Ham. The supporters see you as player first, man second (by a long way I suspect.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:52 / 08.01.03
Another question is, of course, whether from a footballing perspective this was a good transfer. Logically, getting a player who was valued at about £9m a year or two ago for about £200,000 is terrific business. And yet, and yet...

Despite his obvious talent, I think there are some very clear reasons to doubt his character, and his long-term usefulness. Put it like this. Buk' view of what makes a good footballer - performance on the pitch - is only about half of the question. Bowyer has demonstrated that an enormous salary (and I'm guessing the move will put him on £50K or so a week) is not enough of an incentive to keep him from drinking heavily and thus probably shortening his effective playing career and threatening his performance levels. There is a fair chance that any match which he begins he will not finish, having been sent off, and that he is likely to collect yellow cards at a reasonable speed and thus also be suspended a reasonable amount. Especially given that he is goign to be playing in a team which, unless it gets its act together, while frustrate a lot and which will be in six-point clashes with teams like West Brom and possibly Birmingham that will play a highly physical game and seek to stifle and bully. Quite simply, I'm not sure his temperament is up to it. And if West Ham do go down (and it ain't looking good), then he's going to be looking for a move away, unsettled and a huge drain on the wage structure, in the way that a loan move wouldn't.

So, on a footballing level it's either very smart or very dumb, and time will tell. He's certainly a better player than Lomas, but if he does something to blot his copybook again West Ham might get stuck with an unsellable player pulling in crippling wages in a first-division team he has no interest in playing for...
 
 
pear
13:29 / 08.01.03
From what I understand, Bowyer is a Hamster through and through, so if that doesn't motivate him, I don't know what will.
I suspect he may keep you up, which is a shame, as I was looking forward to the old Millwall - West Ham matches next season.

As an aside, from a Millwall point of view, Dennis Wise is probably the biggest mistake we've made since we signed the drink- driving podgy Russian twins whose wages put us into administration.
 
 
William Sack
13:47 / 08.01.03
Totally off-topic, but you have just reminded me of something, pear. A while back friend of mine decided to take a girl he had just started going out with to a football match. She told him that she had only seen 2 football matches before in her life. On the day of the game, as they are walking to the ground, he asked her what matches she had seen before. She told him that it was just a couple of games she had seen while on a couple of holidays. One at the San Siro, and one at the Nou Camp. And so they arrive at ...The Den...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:00 / 08.01.03
Put it this way, I don't think it suddenly makes Leeds golden and shiny, but I'm damn glad to see the back of him.

In part, from a similar angle to Bhatia, that as an Asian fan of a club that has a history of serious racism/violence (and a slightly different case in that there is a vocal and visible Asian presence at Elland Road, or was in the mid 90s, when I was going reasonably regularly) he's the last thing we need.

And I can't help but feel stories like this one:

"he'd like to do something for West Ham and agreed to come and join them."

and that he's playing up his long following of the Hammers point up the link between growing up a West Ham fan about 20 years ago and the kind of personality he's developed. Which doesn't inspire me with much confidence that he'll understand the ramifications of signing for the Hammers, or care.

This doesn't surprise me at all, its been on the cards for a while, but chills me to the bone.

Oh, and re the footballing smarts of this decision... His desire to help out his boyhood team has nothing to do with being in a dead-end situation at Leeds and being too much of a liability for a top-rank club to go for him, does it? Drink, drugs, violence, possible (? and to be honest, I have no problem in saying I think he's a racist little thug. go on, shout at me) racially motivated attacks, prima donna behaviour (as he's amply demo'd at Leeds, he only plays well when *he* wants to). West Ham are taking him on with a 6 match ban after his charming stamp on Gerardo. Good luck, Roeder, you'll need it.

On the other hand, if he comes good, no-one will care anyway.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:45 / 08.01.03
Expanded version of the Bhatia article. (from the Mirror)
 
 
Shortfatdyke
17:30 / 08.01.03
"The only thing that should matter is Bowyer's ability on the field."

First of all, Bowyer's performance on the field appears all too often to include assaulting other players. The fact that he's played for England *should* mean that his conduct off the field also matters - he is supposed to be representing his country; those who love football call national teams 'ambassadors' when it suits them, go on and on about how important the game is, so I have to conclude that if a player is a racist thug - or, like Paul Gasgoigne, a wife beater - it doesn't actually matter. Because who really cares about a few Pakis or women getting a pasting if by a person who is scoring goals? Part of the reason I gave up going to Premiership football matches was because cheating - be it a dive to get a penalty or deliberately hurting an opponent - was fine, as long as 'our' team was doing it, and 'we' got away with it.

If I was a West Ham fan, I would be writing to the club right now to complain, and I certainly wouldn't be going to any more of their matches.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
17:51 / 08.01.03
"The only thing that should matter is Bowyer's ability on the field."

See there's a thing.

Do football clubs, as community organistions, have a responsibility to their local communities? Should they interfere in the local community?

And if not, why have West Ham spent alot of time and money on a wide variety of community projects This doesn't just involve providing coaching for local schools (though they do alot of this) but also using footbaling as a teaching tool in the Learning Through Football scheme:

The aim is to introduce new elements of learning, using football as a vehicle. The main objective is to encourage integration via participation learning, where football serves as common ground for young people from various backgrounds. The format of the day consists of a practical session on the pitch. The children are coached on a specific topic with particular emphasis placed on the correct procedures of warming up. A 45 minute ground tour proceeds, informing children about the history of the Club and players' routines on Match Days.

A fitness, diet and nutrition talk is then delivered and finally, a video and discussion session on "Show Racism the Red Card" takes place in the Thames Lounge.

or how about the Asians in Football Project:

West Ham United, in partnership with Sport England, are making a proactive, ground-breaking contribution to encourage Asian people to participate in football. The project operates across the London Boroughs of Newham, Tower Hamlets and Redbridge. The scheme assists Asian people to gain access to football and benefit from specific levels of participation

This *seems* to be a very comprehensive programme, covering specialist PE teaching, access to FA-certificated courses for Teachers and Coaches, Coaching for promsing players, as well as free summer events....

So what's the message sent by this kind of thing as regards how football clubs see their relationship to the community? West Ham have been quite happy to pat themselves on the back for their iniatives against racism and in attempting to foster Asian involvement in the club. Justifiably in my opinion, they've done some of the best work in this area. But the signing of Lee Bowyer doesn't operate in some other world from this.

And sfd's right, football players seem to be ambassadors when they're behaving in a way we like, but when they're not, suddenly their off-pitch behaviour is irrelevant.
 
 
Fist Fun
18:54 / 08.01.03
Football players should be judged on how well they play football. If Bowyer is guilty of a rascist attack then we should let the legal system deal with that. It would be very foolish to hold up a athlete as an ambassador of anything other than athletic prowess. The only people treating players as ambassadors are the media, great stories, outrage when they are as fallible as everyone else, and the people outraged at the private lives of Bowyer, etc.

Nobody would look to a footballer as a moral role model. We can appreciate a skilled footballer even while we acknowledge a fallible individual. If anyone has commited a crime then it should be dealt with by the legal system not by football clubs, disgusted members of the public, ect. Celebrities shouldn't be treated any different than anyone else. They aren't better, they aren't moral role models. We should judge musicians on their music, actors on their acting, footballer on their football.
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
19:06 / 08.01.03
It could be argued that the main reason Bowyer's trial fell apart was because of his status as a high-profile footballer, and the surrounding media attention - Leeds pulled out all the stops to ensure this happened, by the way. You cannot claim that footballers or anyone else in the public eye are exempted from being judged on their actions just because of the media attention they receive, warranted or unwarranted, especially when they use that publicity for their own purposes.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:53 / 09.01.03
I think BiP has raised some very interesting questions, and deserves better than a restatement of the same contention.

Interestingly, it transpires that West Ham have signed him on a five month contract; so, he will be out of contract at the end of the season. This is an interesting decision; obviously, if they are relegated it means they will be able to drop him from the wage bill, and he will be able to move back immediately to whichever Premiership club wants him. So, in effect, Leeds have farmed his wages out for a nominal fee. This suggests to me that the "I was always a West Ham fan at school, but sometimes I used to climb under the fence across the gasworks to see Sampdoria" approach is not quite the whole story.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
08:59 / 09.01.03
Yeah, interesting that, puts a slightly different spin on this:

'I said when I was to leave Leeds it was going to take something special - and there's nothing more special than coming to the team you have supported as a kid.

*sticks fingers down throat*


Had nothing to do with being transfer-listed after the Boywer/Woodgate trial, huh? (or your chairman saying that given the time over again, he wouldn't have signed you?)

And oddly enough, Bowyer himself seems to agree with you, Buk:

'At the end of the day, I'm a footballer and I am coming here to play football, so I want to be judged on that,' he maintained.

'I just get on with it and let my football do the talking. I just want to get on with working hard.'

Which is exactly what I'd be saying if on the field I was a pretty good player while off it, I had a couple of assault trials and positive drug tests behind me, and was about join a club with a, shall we say, difficult racial history.

Trials, in which which whether or not he was guilty, he certainly had an advantage over your average defendant being able to afford a reported £1million defence. (He subsequently went to the court of Human Rights to attempt to recover this money. didn't get it.)

Thing is, he doesn't (just get on with it and let his football do the talking), he gets in trouble all over the place and due to his ability, his clubs bail him out. Which isn't really an option available to most of us.
 
 
Not Here Still
14:32 / 10.01.03
About the abstract: They are not my third favourite team; I hate football.

About the nasty, racist, thuggish, drunked and moronic little squit, and his on-pitch performance: Personally, I'd say a player who can't tell the difference between the pitch and another player's head, and who rakes his boot across someone's face during a match, earning a six-match ban*, is an asset to any club. For fuckery's sake.

(*By the way; I heard this on teh radio as six MONTHS, and thought 'at last' - and then found it was just six matches. Ho and hum)
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:49 / 10.01.03
I love football.

I hate Bowyer.

But he's a bloody good player.

But Risdale is the real villain at Leeds.

He's fuckin dispicable that cunt and I'd heartily glass his jaw with a paper cup.

A real dangerous idiot.

Bowyer has been demonised because of his thuggish looks, his 'working class' background, his rapport with the macho elements of Leed's support. But he was found innocent. Woodgate on the otherhand, who looked remorseful, public schoolish and a bit soft, was able to pay his dues and get an England call up.

As I said. Risdale is the one to kill.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:06 / 10.01.03
Amen to that. They're my team. I have no words for how much I loathe that man.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:18 / 10.01.03
I didn't realise that Jonathon Woodgate went to public school. How strange that he shoudl be convicted at all, given that his dad probably knew the judge. Hey ho. Point being of course that Bowyer was charged with a more seriosu offence than affray. Whether Eriksson would have picked Bowyer in the aftermath of the trial is an interesting question, but problematised by the fact that his form fell apart as soon as it was over. Or do you mean he just *looked* like he went to public school? Oh, well, that makes all the difference. That must be why Gordon strachan is regularly arrested for all manner of crimes, including the theft of the Hope Diamond. Rough-looking fella, that. Incidentally, by "macho" do you mean "racist and violent"? Or just "manly"?

Risdale is a very funny character, mind you - admititng that signing Bowyer was a mistake in so many words would have driven his price down and pissed him off yet further...but BiP, how does that hatred tally with the enormous expenditure on players under David O'Leary? Bad business leading to Leeds' current dire financial straits, or optimistic, heart-on-sleeve support?
 
 
The Falcon
15:29 / 10.01.03
Bowyer is a shit, but, yes, very talented. I still believe the Hammers, featuring lovely Dundee lad Christian Dailly (his brother was in my year at University, you know, after a failed journeyman career that took him to Brechin's Glebe Park*,) are too talented to go down.

Coupla things: the 'racist' attack initially had Bowyer, Woodgate and a black Leeds reserve (Tony something, can't remember...) indicted. Which makes it sound a bit less racist, but still thuggery.

The 6-match ban is for European matches only. He has signed for West Ham - note the discrepancy?

*I am aware that I'm name-dropping brothers of.. today.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:40 / 10.01.03
I think what another way to look at it is that Woodgate played the media game far better than Bowyer. Which isn't really a virtue on Bowyer's part. He's just more of an idiot, in my book. I do find the speed of Woodgate's England rehabilitation pretty unpleasant, but there you go.

Obviously I don't know exactly what's happening at Leeds, not being privy to the inner worlds of Elland Road. Buuut, I guess my basic position on David O'Leary is that he did amazing things for us in taking a team that was utterly demoralised after being left in the lurch by George Graham (spit), bringing through and acquiring a bunch of excellent young players, and making them into a convincing quality Premiership side.

He was out of his depth when Leeds got anywhere near the big time, but wasn't give enough time/credit to get used to the new situation. The players responded well to him and wanted to play for him.

I loathe Risdale because I hold him personally repsonsible for O Leary going, I have a hunch there's a personal conflict there, in that R. is the kind of chairman who gives with one hand and takes with the other and wanted O Leary to dance to his tune, which he clearly wasn't going to do. He has *no* man management skills; his handling of the whole woodate/bowyer/duberry (anyone remember him, the one who did the 'right' thing?) mess was appalling, and comments such as the ones made about Bowyer don't do anything constructive and just piss the player off. Short-termism ahoy. Also, Risdale is the chairman, it's *his* resonsibility to balance the books. It's his mistake if there's a massive over-spend, as much if not more so than O Leary.

And think that if he was still there we might have had a slightly rocky season, but long-term we'd be alot better off. Don't trust Venables as far as i can throw him, and think if he manages to haul Leeds into respectability this seaon it'll be a miracle... and that he'll be off as soon as he gets a better offer. Don't respect him as a manager/motivator either.

Think in a season or so, he'll be off and we'll be worse off than before.

Basically. Well, you did ask.
 
 
The Falcon
15:53 / 10.01.03
Shit, that's right it was Michael Duberry, a perennial sub. And Tony Hackworth, who isn't, I think, black.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:56 / 10.01.03
Christ almighty. Could I fit more cliches into that rant?

I am Big Ron. Kill me.
 
 
Fist Fun
10:11 / 11.01.03
Just to go back to the West Ham's community programme. Obviously it is nice to see them take on the community role but it shouldn't, as suggested, extend to deciding on the culpability and punishment of potential employees.

We can all agree that racism and hooliganism are bad and it is normal that West Ham should have community initiatives to combat these. However, we can't all agree that Lee Bowyer is a "nasty racist thug" in a non-football context and thus unemployable. That is a messy, difficult decision to come to and West Ham aren't in a position to decide it. They have to accept the outcome of a fair courtroom hearing because the law is best placed to make that decision.

It isn't just about Lee Bowyer. It is about how society as a whole decides on the culpability and punishment of individuals. Should we do that through trial by press judging according to rumours of misdemeanour and juicy scandal or should we allow a fair legal system to apply the law of the land.

Regarding, the footballing aspects of the deal. It is obviously a gamble - but one with astonishingly favourable odds. His disciplinary record is going to be a negative, although that has been hyped out of proportion here and elsewhere. Drafting in an experienced, international quality player at small cost during a relegation battle that risks massive loss of income and prestige is quite a coup.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
16:40 / 11.01.03
Haus - yeah, I said 'looked public schoolish'.

and when i said macho, I meant thuggish but didn't want to repeat myself (I'd already used thuggish to describe Bowyer) and ended up choosing the wrong word.

Anyway, if you've ever been to a football match you'll know how easy it is to be thuggish even if you think you're only being macho.

As for Gordon Strachan, he's so rough he poked his own eye out with a pencil.

When he was six!
 
 
Shortfatdyke
17:41 / 11.01.03
Just seen some footage of scenes outside the West Ham game today - there was a 'kick racism out of West Ham' demo, and I applaud the bravery of those who took part. They were being shoved around a fair bit and surrounded by very hostile men. Were the Bowyer fans actively happy to have a racist thug sign for them (for £100,000 apparently) or do they just not give a shit that non-white supporters may no longer feel welcome at the club?
 
  

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