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Government slam UK garage.

 
  

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Linus Dunce
12:22 / 08.01.03
Feral, and creative it would seem.

I didn't mean SSC themselves were feral, though I think their parti is histrionic and over-valued as reportage by some quarters. And I know, third-hand, how much B-list pop stars actually make, but I reckon it's enough for a deposit on a flat in a nicer area :-) ...

I guess a less loaded way to say it might be that hip-hop et al might have more of an effect on black youth than white youth because it represents a smaller fraction of the total amount of aspirational culture absorbed by whites.

Mmm, yes, and Robert de Niro doesn't (I guess) actually carry a gun when he goes out clubbing. But then there's Vinnie Jones, as someone else mentioned. He, by all accounts, doesn't, er, distance himself from his art as much as de Niro, and he has his less-sophisticated admirers too. So it's not a uniquely black thing.

P Diddy ... his adopted name in itself (and indeed that of his hero) illustrates how some US culture just doesn't translate.

I agree Howells is wrong to lay the blame on Garage. But I cannot see how Garage, and ALL the rest, coupled with profit-driven distributors AND the mismatch between British and certain (appropriated) US culture, is entirely out of the equation. As for ultimate responsibility though, I would say that no one, no matter what their background, is forced to buy a gun. And that's what needs fixing.
 
 
The Natural Way
16:40 / 08.01.03
My "factoid", Mu, is based on actually having lived with people who were involved with those scenes and actually going to the events. When I said I wasn't advancing any argument, I meant it - all I was attempting to do was muddy the water a bit. It was all a bit simple for me, all that "music and REAL LIFE, they're different aren't they?" stuff, and I wanted to complicate the issue.

And stop with that "racial card" stuff: I know white kids find a sense of identity in music (see Korn and my lil bro above), but it's a question of need and the no. of identities available. God, look, it really doesn't matter what you think there IS more of a sense of community at a ragga rave than at Schooldisco.

And if you don't understand how identity (which is a story/a narrative/whatever) and a desire to acquire same ties into money and privelege, then, well...I can't take yr "humble opinion" very seriously.

Look: I'm not the fucking MP, alright? I don't want to see a ban on violent content and, in the final analysis, I'm down with Byron. I just want to....see the beginning on this post.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
19:33 / 08.01.03
Hey, I apologise if my post seemed aggressive or rude, I'm not sure it did on a re-read, but I certainly didn't take any umbrage or anything at what you were saying.

I still don't see how living with some people and attending the events (I have been to many, BTW, here in London and in the Caribbean) validates the assertion. I agree, it is intuitively plausible, but it doesn't really wear as a statement of fact. Oid or otherwise (OK, unnecessary term).

"And stop with that "racial card" stuff: I know white kids find a sense of identity in music (see Korn and my lil bro above), but it's a question of need and the no. of identities available. God, look, it really doesn't matter what you think there IS more of a sense of community at a ragga rave than at Schooldisco."

Glad to see you actually admit that it doesn't matter (to you) what I think, and that (in your opinion) there IS more of a sense of community at a ragga rave than at Schooldisco. But it kind of negates the point of discussion if your opinion IS right, and mine DOESN'T MATTER.

I really wasn't trying to flame your views, and again recant any inferred offence I may have caused. Sheesh. I KNOW you ain't the politician, I thought we were, like, chatting, and stuff.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
20:12 / 08.01.03
Runce - re-reading your post, I would definitely agree that, from a cultural perspective, music and parties/dances have more importance as regards cultural identity within Caribbean, African and Asian culture than within European/Western culture, from Calypso and Reggae and Bhangra right through to modern Ragga, Hip Hop et al. Street festivals, regular dress-ups and piss-ups run right through every island and season, including local Notting Hill etc.

But, from my understanding, the topic of the post is whether or not these things are contributing factors to the rising violence on Britains streets. Maybe they are. But a chicken is, of course, an eggs way of making another egg.

The feedback loops point is, of course, valid, But nobody ever accused Ride of the Valkyries of being a contributing factor in the Opium Wars. (Instrumental not lyrical, I know, and a lame example no doubt.)

Picasso was a serious nazi, but nobody suggests censorship of his work on these grounds. John Travolta is a fucking Scientologist, but people still watch his movies (except Battlefield Earth, of course) without heading to the local 'Church'.

@ the end of the day, music plays a huge role in young peoples lives and sense of identity, whatever their race. I find the assertion that black and asian kids are more susceptible to negative role models within pop music than white kids, because the white kids are (really?) rich and privileged, and have a greater selection of role models to choose from, dubious. Not wrong...I don't fucking know....just highly questionable.

Pop down Bermondsey and check the heads of the white kids there and see how many positive white role models they respect and want to be like.

I've no idea where you live nor whether you are white, middle class, well travelled or whatever, but our experiences of modern British yute are clearly quite different.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:00 / 08.01.03
Picasso was a Nazi? Well, that at least explains why "Guernica" Iis such a happy, jolly picture...
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
10:38 / 09.01.03
Well, symapthies and views at least.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
10:45 / 09.01.03
Tho clearly not by that point. :-)
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
10:50 / 09.01.03
For Mu, on Jazz and ideas of 'blackness', from here, has some interesting points that relate to this discussion (my emphases). Check out the title of that book!

"The idea of blacks as agents of chaos and passion (especially sexual passion) fed into the early response to ragtime and jazz, in origin black forms, which became the locus for fears about sexuality and anarchy. It was suggested that Jazz was associated with a loss of civilized control.

here's an extract from a 1920s book on the subject:

"Jazz originally was the accompaniment of the vodoo dancers stimulating the half-crazed barbarians to the vilest deeds. The weird chant, accompanied the syncopated rhythm of the voodoo evokers has also been employed by barbaric people to stimulate brutality and sensuality. That it has a demoralising effect upon the human brain has been demonstrated by many scientists...

...jazz - that expression of protest against law and order, the bolshevik element of license striving for expression in music.

The human organism responds to musical vibrations. This fact is universally recognised. What instincts are aroused by jazz? Certainly not the deeds of valor or martial courage, for all marches and patriotic hymns are of regular rhythm and simple harmony; decidedly not contentment or serenity, for the songs of home and the love of native land are all of the simplest melody and harmony with noticeably regular rhythm.

Jazz disorganizes all regular laws and order; it stimulates to extreme deeds, to a breaking away from all rules and conventions; it is harmful and dangerous, and its influence is wholly bad.

...In a recent letter to the author, Dr Henry van Dyke says of jazz: 'As I understand it, it is not music at all. It is merely an irritation of the nerves of hearing, a sensual teasing of the strings of physical passion. Its fault lies not in syncopation, for that is a legitimate device when sparingly used. But "jazz" is an unmitigated cacophony, a combination of disagreeable sounds in complicated discords, a wilful ugliness and a deliberate vulgarity.' " "

"Does Jazz Put the Sin in Syncopation?" [1921]; in Keeping Time, ed. Walser, p. 34-6
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:51 / 09.01.03
Yep. Nothing says "I sympathise with the march of European Fascism" quite like "Guernica". I'm amazed that it wasn't used in more propaganda.

In fact, that was probably why the Nazis banned his work from public display when Paris was occupied. Becasue it was too Nazi, and they didn't want a popular uprising complaining that they weren't being Nazi enough, and should be Nazier. I mean, sure, they claimed he was decadent, but actually they were scared that his high-level Naziness was going to make them look like nanoNazis. PicoNazis. FemtoNazis.

Well, that's changed my view of 20th century art. I'll be bang up for some equally well-informed perspectives on UK Garage...that Kim Howells looks like a clever bloke...
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
10:52 / 09.01.03
OK, backtrack, I dreamed that bit....

doh.
 
 
No star here laces
10:54 / 09.01.03
Might I suggest a thread in the art forum if we wish to discuss Picasso's political sympathies as this is a little OT for something that is turning into a very interesting discussion...
 
 
No star here laces
10:58 / 09.01.03
So that post was utterly redundant then.

Anyway, yes - the interesting thing is that in those extracts about jazz from the 1920s book, black music is criticised as being of malign influence because it transgressed against conservative social and sexual mores.

Interestingly modern black music now attracts criticism both from liberals and conservatives - on the one hand for supposed 'misogyny' and on the other for encouraging violence and brutish behaviour.

I wonder if soul and funk as the official 'black music it's okay for white rock fans to like' ever attracted similar criticisms of equal vehemence? And can we attribute these criticisms to the white establishment's instinctual rejection of black culture, or is black culture deliberately produced to be antithetical to the establishment because of the feelings of alienation in its producers?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:04 / 09.01.03
Sorry, Byron, just to re-clarify (*Mu's brain struggles back to sobriety*)

*keyword replace* / Pablo Picasso / "Ezra Pound"

Knew what I meant, really.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
11:17 / 09.01.03
I wonder if soul and funk as the official 'black music it's okay for white rock fans to like' ever attracted similar criticisms of equal vehemence?

I'd say that if soul and funk occupy this position, it's only a recent situation, and certainly not how this stuff was viewed contemporaneously, so that's more about appropriation/ decontexualisation than the sound/bent of the music itself (something that's mirrored in hip-hop).

Soul and funk artists like Curtis Mayfield, James Brown, Sly and the Family Stone, and the Last Poets allied themselves personally,politically and artistically with the Black Panthers. Hardly safe and white-friendly. And, possibly a useful comparison, as the BPs caught flack from both sides....

eg:
James Brown, "Say it Loud...I'm Black and I'm Proud!", "Soul Power". "Ghetto Reality"
Marvin Gaye, "What's Goin On?", "Inner City Blues", "You're the Man"
Stevie Wonder, "Living for the City"
Sly and the Family Stone, "Don't Call Me Nigger, Whitey", ""
The Last Poets, "Niggers are Scared of Revolution"
Curtis Mayfield "Ghetto Child"
George Soule "Get Involved"

Aren't excactly bland or safe. And caused outrage, and were risky for black commercially successful artists to release.

We'd rather die on our feet than be livin on our knees. - James Brown - Say it Loud?

So is it just a matter of time until UKG goes the same way?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:27 / 09.01.03
Well Byron, as may have been noticed, there was a level of comparison being created there. People rarely know a lot about things they have little interest in, and rarely have little interest in things they really like. As such, if they talk about something that they do not like, have little interest in and do not know much about, there comments are likely to appear ill-informed and idiotic to thems as do know something about the subject in question.

Cue Kim Howells. As has been mentioned, he is probably not a great fan of UK garage, and clearly does not know very much about it, and as such his comments are going to *seem* ill-informed because they *are* ill-informed. More worringly, however, is the question of whether his attitude represents an "othering" of the (black) culture of UK Garage. This question is further complciated, as far as I can tell, byt he fact that UK Garage is not a universally black phenomenon, in my limited understanding, but one both produced and consumed by a number of different ethnicities. So, is it (and why is it) being held up as encouraging gun culture and subsequently gun violence?

On a sidenote, I found myself listening a few nights ago to Nubian, as far as I can tell a black-interest London radio station, which was running a phone-in show on the situation in Aston. Some of the callers were criticising UKG and Rap, although at times as a way of identifying specific communities that they felt were "the problem", but one very interesting point made by the host was that, in his eyes, the largest and best-armed gang in the country was the Government. Which brings us back to Jazz in Germany, in a way - you have a national government which is presenting a particular musical form as in itself spiritually dangerous to that nation's citizens. Which is pretty much guaranteed further to alienate the groups producing and enjoying the music, which in the case of UKG is pretty much anyone, as far as I can tell. Tipper Gore, anyone?
 
 
No star here laces
11:27 / 09.01.03
Absolutely.

The interesting thing about UKG is that when its quirks and tropes get used in electro, avant garde or hip-hop records many of the 'haters' love it. I continue to maintain that it's unpopularity among certain sectors of the population is purely dependent on cultural context and levels of perceived threat.

The other fascinating thing about UKG is that more than any other 'black' style I can think of, it has been strongly multi-racial from the outset. The black artists are certainly more visible than the white (a definite media effect there also) and the scene is painted as a black scene (possibly because this is very good marketing practice) but in many ways it is much more 'poor urban' than 'black' in origin (nearest comparison might be early 90s breakbeat hardcore).
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:28 / 09.01.03
Probably not, since there is some kind of self censorship at work within the biz that implicitly or explicitly sates that politics and music should be kept apart as far as possible...notable exceptions, of course, but generally speaking the only statement on display within the UKG scene is an appropriation of P.Diddy-land.

The anti-black music sentiment that began with jazz in the 20's in inextricably caught up in the drugs-of-choice of black peoples, as well.

"75 years ago it was still illegal for a “nonwhite” to step on a white person’s shadow, you could’nt look at a white person in the eye for more than three seconds, and God forbid you were caught staring at a white woman. That was considered rape, punishable by, at least, life in prison. During the 1936 senate hearings, Harry Anslinger, the first Drug Czar, working for marrying into the Melon family, and working for other corporate owners, was quoted, “Look at those Negroes and Mexicans. They’re stepping on our shadows, looking at us right in the eye, they’re taking our white women into jazz clubs, and they tap their feet!” He believed jazz musicians were inherently evil, because they did’nt play the music as written. Instead they played around the notes...

The racist campaign was carried out in Hearst newspapers for decades, preparing the way. And in the process he made millions of dollars during the Great Depression, decimating huge vast tracks of forests. Headlining fantastic lies of marijuana causing “blood lust and gore,” while burying political misdeeds, deaths from alcohol, tobacco, and toxins leaching from DuPont paper mills, in the back pages. Even today we still refer to his tactics as “Yellow Journalism” meaning piss poor reporting"

This from a net source on hemp and the criminalisation of cannabis.

Dope and jazz were synonymous, as dope and hip-hop are synonymous, and, arguably, for a while at least, drum'n'bass was heavily associated with crack use (the smell at the Ministry was overwhelming on a Thursday night).

Are the anti-music sentiments seperable from a fear of drugs-against-which-we-are-fighting-a-war ? The recent visa restrictions on Jamaicans into and out of Britain are tied to fear of the Yardies who run the crack and coke markets, and the culture that goes with this brings ragga, dancehall and similar influences to the melting pot that is British dance music (also inextricably tied to drug use).

Thoughts?
 
 
No star here laces
11:34 / 09.01.03
Above post refers to Bengali's post, not Haus'
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:37 / 09.01.03
Previous post in response to political leanings of UKG, btw.

"The other fascinating thing about UKG is that more than any other 'black' style I can think of, it has been strongly multi-racial from the outset."

True, but as with DnB, it is the white cats that are receiving the most plaudits and respectable column inches, re : The Streets, M J Cole, Bump'n'Flex, and these are the guys getting the big remix bucks for chart acts (generally speaking, again exceptions are there).

The first Mobo DnB award, with 4Hero in the running (Mark & Dego also being pioneers of early breakbeat, and hugely jazz influenced), went to fucking Adam F....hmmm....something dubious about an award ceremony which self consciously includes race as an inclusionary factor and then awards at least half its gongs to white cats that have appropriated the tropes (All Saints got an award in the sane year...).

Most dance music in this country begins with a real mixed crowd, and then slowly polarises into segregation...House, UKG, Drum&Bass, all showed signs of weird 'apartheid' as they grew, not in the production etc., but certainly in the events and raves themselves.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:02 / 09.01.03
So many interesting themes here, but thought I'd mention this (from dotmusic):

Home Office minister John Denham has distanced himself from Kim Howells' recent attack on British rap and garage music, claiming there is a debate to be had over whether or not the culture glamourises gun violence.

Speaking to the BBC yesterday, Denham said the focus should not be on pointing the finger of blame, but on encouraging black community leaders to speak out against gun culture.


Which sounds like damage limitation/disowning to me.

Between Byron and Mu, you've identified something that's really interesting about the media profile of UKG (and I don't know if I'd say it was *more* multiracial than the rave/breakbeat/hardcore crossover stuff, which as far as I can remember had the same 'urban poor' constituency. not refuting, just curious, what makes you say that, Byron? )

Which is that given its multiracial make up, as far as major sellers/makers/scene 'leaders' if you like, the media can have it both ways. What seems to have happened with the UK mainstream music media (which I would say is, while nowhere near as bad as it was, still institutionally racist) can hype the scary black acts, especially SSC, and thus make UKG every rebellious non nu-metal kid's wet dream.

This while critically lauding the white acts, who can be seen as 'safer', and are often painted in really crude terms as the more creative/ intellectual, 'less instinctual' musicians... being described as musicians/artists at all is something I think separates the coverage of white and black UKG artists. (will try and find some comparative stuff, but that's very much my feeling.)

But who wouldn't get any coverage were it not for the UKG scene being a constant hot topic news story due to idiots like Kim Howells (and to be fair, idiots like G-man and Asher D, running around with guns, providing easy headlines.) seeing UKG as the black bogeyman come home to roost.

Is the segregation thing about size, d'you think, Mu? that when a scene is small/not many people are into it, you don't care who someone is, you're just too excited to discover other people into the same shit as you, whereas as scenes get bigger and more spaces become available for them, a stratification takes places, on grounds, that some venues cost more/are less drug friendly/dress codes become more important...

I have a sense that 'originators' of scenes that start off being 'come one, come all if you're into the music' get pissed off when their scenes become as they perceieve it, diluted, and then impose their own stringent conditions to make sure the 'right sort', the ones who 'get it', get in. That's definitely what happened with rave/breakbeat.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
16:33 / 09.01.03
Possibly, also I suspect that 'movers and shakers' are hip to multiracial crowds and being a minority, black or white, amongst a large crowd of drug/drink addled 'other' race. i.e, being the only black/white/asian crowd amongst a larger collective of 'other' is not an issue to genuine music/club lovers and scenemakers, but, for the sake of example, white bandwagon jumpers get easily spooked walking into, say, the Aquarium, and finding themselves, suddenly, in a minority.

On that note, plenty of black women found the Aquarium a little overbearing, from the white female crowd present aggressively 'defending' their men-territory! erm......

"Is the segregation thing about size, d'you think, Mu? that when a scene is small/not many people are into it, you don't care who someone is, you're just too excited to discover other people into the same shit as you, whereas as scenes get bigger and more spaces become available for them, a stratification takes places, on grounds, that some venues cost more/are less drug friendly/dress codes become more important..."

Dress codes is definitley an issue...The black clubbing experience has almost always been more about dressing up sharp and being tasty with the moves than, for want of a better catch-all, the 'white' house/trance scene. In fact, from the last time I was clubbing (oohh, going back a bit now) you'd be hard pressed to spot many black clubbers frequenting any but the funkiest, most soulful House events...Masters At Work, stuff like that.

Trance? Forget it! Too much sweat and stomping on the spot!

But late 80's early 90's it was very different, a real cultural mix, gay, straight, everything, all to pretty much the same soundtrack as well, with little of the absurd genre stratification that is now the norm.

I would definitley agree that the black/white UKG difference is very convenient for the media, to keep the topic hot, while elevating it at the same time to Broadsheet Sunday Supp. coverage.
 
 
Linus Dunce
17:44 / 09.01.03
Probably not, since there is some kind of self censorship at work within the biz that implicitly or explicitly sates that politics and music should be kept apart as far as possible (Mu)

So, is it (and why is it) being held up as encouraging gun culture and subsequently gun violence? (Haus)

I can see something here ...

IMHO, politics is generally kept out of (pop) music because for the same reason any coherent, specific message, is omitted or fudged beyond recognition -- it makes it harder to sell.

What makes hip-hop and UKG different though is that a fair bit of it is quite specifically about confrontation, and indeed in UKG, this confrontational content is echoed in its form. And so perhaps that is why it can be singled out as a pernicious influence.

Side note -- Though I can see it can easily apply in this case, I would have real problems wholeheartedly following forever the argument that, because a culture has been unfairly criticised in the past, it therefore follows any criticism is invalid.

Another side note -- Travis are well within the pale of my white, male cultural identity. Yet I find them as dull as dishwater. So whether we like something or not is not solely due to cultural mismatch.
 
 
Not Here Still
14:14 / 10.01.03
Speed-read the posts, so apologies if this has been said before;

But doesn't it occur to anyone else that, by discussing the issues surrounding Kim Howell's statements, we may well be doing something he intended us to do - and not concentrating on the bigger picture?

That is, that the Government are responsible for doing things such as, for instance, stopping the guns getting into this country in the first place, tackling poverty and social exclusion etc etc. And saying something controversial draws fire away from the fact that - as yesterday's gun crime figures show - they are failing badly in their approach to the problem.

I mean, I tried to kill someone with a So Solid Crew CD the other day - but despite sharpening the sides and carving it into a Ninja star, I couldn't do it. Guns seem far more effective, for some reason.

And saying something controversial, and getting the headlines to read something like 'Gangsta Trap *((c) The Mirror) and the stories to focus on whether or not Lisa Maffia can be held responsible for the gun epidemic sweeping our cities, the Government can avoid people asking: What have They done about theses issues?

OK, rant over.
Bo!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:51 / 10.01.03
Well, exactly. This aside from the fact that David Blunkett's been responsible for more pain and suffering than 100 So Solid Crews - if there's been a failure on the part of role models in the media it's been that they haven't been inciting people to shoot *him*...
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:46 / 10.01.03
Heheheheh
 
 
Not Here Still
14:06 / 12.01.03
"...what really makes me angry is when people like David Blunkett, who have never shown an iota of interest in black people, suddenly get on their soap box and act as though they are experts on every aspect of black culture.

Two young girls are murdered by ruthless gun-toting gangsters and Blunkett is adamant it's hip-hop and garage music that caused it.

When the 1996 Dunblane Primary School massacre took place, there was no mention of Snoop Dogg or Tupac from MPs, despite the rap stars being at the top of their game at the time. Instead, the Government quickly introduced a ban on hand guns and there was much intelligent discussion of the issue.

The Government needs to stop shifting the blame for this rise in gun crime and look at British society's own shortcomings, such as unemployment, social deprivation and educational underachievement - particularly in the black community."


Indeed. Good point about Dunblane and generally a damn good article on this on the Observer website by the New Nation's Akosua Annobil-Dodoo, which pretty much encapsulates my thoughts...
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:40 / 12.01.03
Did you see Ian Hislop parading his ignorance on Newsnight Friday?

Even Ekow Eshun, arch irritant by any normal standards, came out of that one sounding spot on.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
22:17 / 13.01.03
God.yes.

Was wondering if anyone else caught it. (and check out the terrifyingly (for LR) 'multicultural' line-up ) There was a point where Akram Jivani seemed to come close to just shaking his head and giving up in the face of Hislop's nuanced class/race analysis...

Pushed for time, but will come back to rant out it smore, i'm sure.
 
  

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