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Government slam UK garage.

 
  

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uncle retrospective
04:51 / 07.01.03
From the NME

The MP singled out So Solid Crew for criticism and dismissed rappers in general as "boasting macho idiots" during a radio interview to discuss the shooting of two teenage girls in Birmingham after a New Year party, when they were caught in the crossfire of a shoot-out between rival gangs.

The MP claimed Britain's black music scene "created a culture where killing is almost a fashion accessory," and claimed: "The events in Birmingham are symptomatic of something very, very serious. For years I have been very worried about these hateful lyrics that these boasting macho idiot rappers come out with."

He continued: "It is a big cultural problem. Lyrics don't kill people but they don't half enhance the fare we get from videos and films. It has created a culture where killing is almost a fashion accessory.

"Idiots like the So Solid Crew are glorifying gun culture and violence. It is very worrying and we ought to stand up and say it."

So is this a racist attack on a mainly black music genre? Government lashing out because they have no idea where to start with the problem?
Or is garage full of macho bullshit that promotes gun violence the way only gansta rap has before it?

I can't really comment on the whole as I have a rabid hatred of this (IMHO) boring little sub genre and I don't live in the UK and have no idea how this is affecting people.
Discus?
 
 
A
05:32 / 07.01.03
Notice how the word's "Black music scene" aren't actually part of the MP's quote? Seems like the NME's putting words in his mouth. He seems to be taking on a subject he barely understands, and coming across like quite the fool in the process, but accusing him of racism, based on the evidence presented here, seems to be going overboard, perhaps even deliberately so. If he did indeed specifically target "black music" rather than just some style of music and the scene that surrounds it, then that would of course be different.

I don't live in the UK, and know next to nothing about the "garage" scene, but I know what looks like dishonest journalism when I see it.
 
 
No star here laces
06:55 / 07.01.03
Yep - "ignorance of black culture" =/= "racism"

Hey ho.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:55 / 07.01.03
I would personally say that the global export of American culture is more to blame for rising incidence of gun crime on Britain's streets, if we are going to look for media/cultural causes of violence. UK 'Garage' is just one exponent of licking at the bootheels of an American paradigm. With a hefty dose of Jamaica thrown in for good measure. So 'Ghetto Fabulous' meets 'Ghetto', and kids run around proving just how in charge they really are.(n't)

But of course, we can't say that. Because we all want to be like America. Land of the Free.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
09:48 / 07.01.03
Not sure if Kim Howells has any 'previous' on making racist statements, Google doesn't think so. Based on the report it seems to be everyone criticising someone for being racist when they're just criticising an aspect of a scene, unless everyone involved wants to call a press conference and announce that garage IS just a black thing and white kids aren't invited. At no point does Howells actually say that it's black rappers doing this, or black people. I'd quite like to see the NME editor back up his claim that Howell's remarks were 'deeply racist' and not just deeply dumb.
 
 
rizla mission
09:49 / 07.01.03
I note that these quotes are from "the MP" rather than "the GOVERNMENT", and, um, individual MPs kind of have a distinguished history of occasionally saying spectacularly dumb things to the general bemusement of everyone else in the world, so, er, this particular (non)story seems more like "bloke thinks So Solid Crew are silly" than "UK ESTABLISHEMENT SLAMS GARAGE CULTURE!" Whatever.

[cheap shot] It'll no doubt give them the oppurtunity to record another half dozen crushingly dull numbers about how all these 'haterz' are hurting their feelings though..[/cheap shot]
 
 
No star here laces
10:02 / 07.01.03
[cheap shot]you just wish rock music was this controversial and relevant[/cheap shot]

Vis a vis jamaica - I rather think the connection is more that a lot of the people doing the shooting are actual jamaicans who came over here to sell drugs (rather than the other jamaicans who moved here to get away from all that).
 
 
illmatic
10:06 / 07.01.03
No only mere street haterz but the goverment are hating now...

Doesn't this nobhead see that by slagging off So Solid he just makes them more attractive to da yoof? Twat.

And why did Newsnight have to interview Ms. Dynamire in an abandoned warehouse? "Wow, gritty, industrial, street" - no, stupid and patronising. Why not invite her to the studio like everyone else?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:14 / 07.01.03
Kim Howells (Minister for tourism and broadcasting, btw, so quite what this has to do with him I do not know) is a notorious fathead anyway - he made some twarty comments about the Turner Prize last year, and is responsible for some of the new licensing legislation which subjects live music to tighter regulation:

At the bill's launch in the basement of a Westminster pub, Kim Howells, the minister in charge, was accused of turning his dislike of folk music ("my idea of hell," he once said) into a snobbish vendetta against traditional music. "Traditional music is unamplified, it is not making a noise, and is usually listened to by well-behaved people," said Sheila Mellor, who runs a London folk club, the Cellar Upstairs. "This legislation follows the presumption against live music which goes back a long way. It is rooted in the assumption that live music is something for the lower classes, a bad thing, making a noise."

Mr Howells, who last month described the Turner prize art as "conceptual bullshit", complained yesterday that he had been driven out of his local pub by a single musician with an amplifier. But he insisted that the bill was motivated by complaints about noise and safety concerns.
(source).

The Guardian's bit on him says: "Mr Howells is certainly no Blairite automaton spouting Millbank-approved sound bites." For which read (this is my guess) someone who sees himself as a bit of a maverick, telling it like it is and like the on-message types don't dare, and representing the real views of the man in the suburban housing estate.
 
 
The Strobe
12:22 / 07.01.03
Hmn. They're slamming "Hip-Hop and Garage Culture".

Are they trying not to use the word "black"? Because that's what they mean. As far as I can tell, from what's been presented, the gangs involved are mainly coloured, and the problems in London with handguns are mainly amongst the young black community. Or am I jumping to a white-normative conclusion?

Because the race-thing hasn't been mentioned once, but it's been skirted over very neatly quite a lot.

Also: there hasn't been nearly enough serious coverage on the whole import-of-American-culture thing. It's one thing to hear a US rapper talking about gun culture - for though his weapons may be possessed just as illegally as those of someone in the UK, part of his culture does have the right to carry concealed weapons. Hell, part of his culture are allowed to own assault rifles, for god's sake.

And so much of the music being namechecked is coming from the states. Garage, specifically, probably isn't - that's the UK side of the story... but it's imitating something imported. And so street attitude and culture is attempting to imitate the US street culture as well?

I'm not sure, because I find it pretty difficult to talk about without sounding like a racist, facist, or idiot. But so little seems to have been said in public about this debate that is of worth or serious meaning, and lots of big, dangerous generalisations have been rushed out, like quicky laws and the blanked-condemnation of music. Are they really going to the record labels to tell them "make your artists stop talking about guns, damnit!"
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:26 / 07.01.03
And why did Newsnight have to interview Ms. Dynamire in an abandoned warehouse? "Wow, gritty, industrial, street" - no, stupid and patronising. Why not invite her to the studio like everyone else?

Now THAT fucking cracked me up.

*The desolate urban wasteland in which the people's poet and voice of a yoof nation leads her geurilla, fugitive-like, politico existence*

Did you see how fucking COLD it was?? Looked like they were both smoking...probly CHRONIC homes, s'up??

Totally OT, but I wonder if this was Newsnight production decision or an insistence from Dynamitee management? Either way, how I larfed.
 
 
illmatic
13:33 / 07.01.03
Totally OT, but I wonder if this was Newsnight production decision or an insistence from Dynamitee management? Either way, how I larfed.

I'm guessing, but I can't imagine Ms Dynamite's management being that idiotic, but you never know. Smacked of a BBC producer drunk on the blood of yoof kulcer to me.
 
 
No star here laces
14:09 / 07.01.03
The thing that's so fucking stupid about this is that the finger-pointers never seem to stop to consider the relative importance of influencers on peoples' behaviour.

Music = small influence on big things, big influence on small things

i.e. many cannibal corpse fans will dress in crap black clothing, but very few will sacrifice virgins

Poverty = fucking huge influence on everything

Clearly growing up without any money and surrounded by crime is going to be a teensy bit more influential in determining someone's predilection for guns than what music they listen to.

However poverty doesn't square with what peeves Mr Howells about his own kids, whereas garage probably does....
 
 
penitentvandal
14:14 / 07.01.03
Clearly we need to forge some alliance of rappers, garage MCs, folk singers and conceptual artists to 'deal with' Mr Howells.

'We could take him on down to the west side,/ kill him, then fill him with formaldehyde,/ eviscerate, deacpitate and put out his eyes/ then stick 'im in the Tate and win the Turner prize/ a-wack-fol-a-diddle-a-yo-yo-yo-yo-YO!'

Or possibly not.

It's just boring, innit, tho'? Two people get shot. MP blames So Solid Crew etc. So Solid Crew record songs criticizing 'haters' (again), some SSC bloke or representative of another garage act then comes along and recites some trite homily to the effect that when will we stop doing this to our community, dammit? then records yet another song about what a tough motherfucker he is and how anyone who messes with him's gonna die.

*sigh*
 
 
Mr Quick
15:01 / 07.01.03
Their clearly is an element of the most pernicious sort of modern liberal (although it's unclear whether Blunkett falls into this category) racism in the Government's comments.

I saw Spike Lee interviewed recently on one of those 'Greatest Movie Ever' programmes talking about 'Do the Right Thing'. He talks about how, on its release, there was outcry from the liberal establishment about the incendiary nature of the film and the likelihood of it inciting [black] riots across the country. Lee responded that there was a terrible racism at the core of these beliefs, that black people could not appreciate the 'art' of his film and that they are effectively weak minded. I'm not sure exactly what the parallel is but it feels like there is one.

I don't know all that much about violent lyrics in 'white' music, but no-one, surely, ever suggests that the Soprano's largely middle-class white audience (in the UK) not be allowed to watch it because they might decide to settle their scores with a 9mm?
 
 
rizla mission
15:02 / 07.01.03
What with that live music legislation shit too, this Mr. Howells seems to have a definite chip on his shoulder with regards to music..

Maybe we should all go and give him a good kicking.. possibly whilst dressed as garage MCs and folk musicians..
 
 
No star here laces
15:17 / 07.01.03
Rizla, i would pay an extraordinary amount of money to see you dressed as a garage mc. Please, let's do it...
 
 
Shortfatdyke
15:45 / 07.01.03
When I was a youngster there were a lot of 'Oi!' bands - all white - who glorified violence at football matches and were at best dodgy, at worst, downright racist. I don't remember the Cockney Rejects being banned from anywhere even though their bass player was one of the Inter City Firm (West Ham Utd hooligans) and the guitarist ended up in court after smashing someone over the head with an iron bar. There was a riot in Southall when the 4 Skins played there. Having white skinheads wandering about before the gig provoking - and getting - trouble made the headlines but no more than that, as I recall. And of course Skrewdriver were banned from just about everywhere, but not really condemned.

The reaction to the shooting in Birmingham did make me wonder if the victims were white. More later, but my dinner is ready.
 
 
Linus Dunce
16:38 / 07.01.03
The victims were not white. Newspaper reports should of course be taken with a pinch of salt, but it appears that the women had somehow managed to avoid self-identifying as gangsta-types. Go figure.

I think the comparison to Oi! bands opens up an interesting liberal contradiction:

Racist lyrics influence the way people think.
Aggressive lyrics do not influence the way people think.

What do you think?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
16:40 / 07.01.03
There's plenty of Christian rock and rave tunes out there for balance, but of course they don't give good copy. And Christians never carry guns and kill innocent people, or suggest that it might be appropriate to do so. Ever.

Except that homey God, the cat in some crappy trash novel from ages ago, and the way that mofo carries on his book...Damn! That guy has some attitood! Talk about self aggrandiosing and macho posturing! Damn! Like, kill them bitches for bein' so slutty, and do as I say or I will smite thee, mutherfucker!

*deeper sigh*
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
16:47 / 07.01.03
Music = small influence on big things, big influence on small things

i.e. many cannibal corpse fans will dress in crap black clothing, but very few will sacrifice virgins

Poverty = fucking huge influence on everything

Clearly growing up without any money and surrounded by crime is going to be a teensy bit more influential in determining someone's predilection for guns than what music they listen to.


Nail on head moment. Why are kids shooting each other on New Years Eve?
Does anyone really believe it is because they are living up to the example of their pin-up popstar of the moment? Because they sat in listening to the bleepy nonsense that is So Solid Crew and decided to live out the lyrics?

Methinks not. People select music as a soundtrack to their lives, they don't choose their lives according to the theme music that's playing at the time, like marrionettes jerking to the rhythm. Fucking politicians.Arggh!
 
 
Linus Dunce
17:09 / 07.01.03
People select music as a soundtrack to their lives, they don't choose their lives according to the theme music that's playing at the time [...]

So you wouldn't mind if I chose Skrewdriver and Lynard Skynard as my soundtrack? And hey, I live in a rough area and I'm, ahem, unsalaried at that moment, so is it OK if I buy a gun?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
17:24 / 07.01.03
This thread covers quite a wide area, I'll concentrate on a small aspect. I've heard the So Solid Crew say their songs reflect their lives and their environment, which reminded me of the Cockney Rejects' claim: "We don't glorify violence, we just say, it happens". Grandmaster Flash and The Clash also sang about their environment but I found The Message and many of the songs The Clash wrote to be positive and powerful statements rather than wallowing in the mire.

People are more likely to choose a soundtrack to their lives than the other way around, IMHO.

Ignatius - I think lyrics in general influence people. Not in the way that, say, Marilyn Manson has been conveniently blamed for Columbine, or a SSC record for a shooting in Birmingham, but when I was younger I lived for music - Crass' lyrics had a profound influence on my life. So, yeah, lyrics continually referring to aggression would surely give the message that aggression is okay.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
17:43 / 07.01.03
"So you wouldn't mind if I chose Skrewdriver and Lynard Skynard as my soundtrack?"

No, I wouldn't mind at all, mate.

"And hey, I live in a rough area and I'm, ahem, unsalaried at that moment, so is it OK if I buy a gun?"

Er, no, what part of my statement lead you to that conclusion?

On the other, if you already own a gun, or desire to own one, since I guess you feel either a) your life is in danger and you will be getter able to defend yourself against attack if you do own one or b) you wish to place someone elses life in danger and feel that obtaining a gun is the most expedient way to achieve that, then I would hazard a guess that the music of SSC, Skrewdriver or whatever suits your tastes in art as a reflection of your life.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
17:58 / 07.01.03
Agh....or c) you feel that a gun and all the related iconography and semiology that surrounds such an object, which you have been inculcating and absorbing since you were only wee, principally from globally exported American mass media, but also from all kinds of other sources, will give you a sense of identity, substance, currency and power which you otherwise feel you have no way of adopting or possessing in your life, and certainly not from any of the channels that The Famous Five or Grange Hill told you you would, ever.

and then the rest.
 
 
Linus Dunce
18:47 / 07.01.03
SSC, Skrewdriver or whatever suits your tastes in art as a reflection of your life.

Or as a reinforcement of my ill-educated worldview. There are some very ignorant people out there. More ignorant than most people realise. In fact, they're fucking feral.

Actually, I don't think it's simple. Banning music? No thank you. But I'm sorry -- I fail to see the irony of SSC etc.'s work. Especially, despite the fact they must by now have enough money to escape the nasty world they portray, they still carry guns. Sounds more like a lifestyle choice than self-preservation. As it is for anyone.
 
 
Linus Dunce
19:49 / 07.01.03
principally from globally exported American mass media

Mmm, possibly, but I'd describe this as U.S. cultural artefacts broadcast out of their original context, in a country that has yet to work out the subtleties of individualism. :-)
 
 
arcboi
22:58 / 07.01.03
The NME accusing people of racism? It's not like they've done that before..

Anyway, I think it was the rapper Fur Q who summed it up best: "You've gotta kill some people anyway, you can't kill everybody, because you ... wouldn't have anybody left to respect if you did."
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:17 / 08.01.03
"There are some very ignorant people out there. More ignorant than most people realise. In fact, they're fucking feral."

Feral, and creative it would seem. Just cos they dumb, don't mean they cain't be number one.

"Actually, I don't think it's simple. Banning music? No thank you. But I'm sorry -- I fail to see the irony of SSC etc.'s work. Especially, despite the fact they must by now have enough money to escape the nasty world they portray, they still carry guns"

There is no irony in SSC's work. But come on - "they must by now have enough money to escape the nasty world they portray"? Why would they have a sudden life overhaul after a teensy bit of chart success.

And BTW, the pop industry in this country don't pay well enough for thirty (that's 30, count'em) goons, produced by two or three, with 5 hits between 'em to "have enough money" to escape anything, methinks.

Cartainly not enough to escape the marketing drizzle on Louis Roederer that pours out of P. Diddy and his ilk.
 
 
The Natural Way
09:09 / 08.01.03
Hmmmm. I don't want to be controversial here - and I want to stress, I'm not trying to advance any specific argument - but there's a couple of points that might be worth throwing into the mix. I think comparisons between a white Sopranos audience and a black/asian garage audience are a little misleading. There IS a difference in terms of community and group identity - a very important difference. I wonder how many people here have actually been to a proper (and I don't mean the (b)righton style Jurrasis 5/funk playing) hiphop, R&B, ragga or garage night. It's through this music and these events that LOADS of young londoners (esp black and asian kids) find a sense of self, a sense of who they are: the scene is probably considerably far more important to people's sense of identity and community than, well, Korn is to my little brother. White kids have a huge, transparent menu of selves with which to identify - black kids don't. So, yeah, I DO think music/fashion/blah has a great deal to do with how young black and asian kids self identify (and therefore behave), but I want to stress that this isn't a hypodermic "play THEM evil music and THEY will kill" model - it's feedback loops. I think it's bloody easy from the white, middle class perspective to waffle on about how the stories a community tells itself have fuck all bearing on how it behaves, but that's because we have the money and the privelege to ignore stories..... I dunno - as I said, I'm not advancing a theory or a solution. Lyra's absolutely right about the money thing....etc.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:41 / 08.01.03
British cities had their own home-grown traditions of violent gangsterdom long before So Solid Crew showed up to trigger the latest moral panic. Artistic explorations of that element in British life trickle down the years between Bill Sykes and Get Carter. Pinky's Brighton opens the door for the depressing fare recently served up by Vin nie Jones and Guy Ritchie. Why doesn't anybody call them to account? (Guardian)

Thought it was quite an interesting article... it does place things firmly within the context of race relations though, pace what some of us were saying further up the thread.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
09:51 / 08.01.03
"It's through this music and these events that LOADS of young londoners (esp black and asian kids) find a sense of self, a sense of who they are"

On what do you base this factoid?

"So, yeah, I DO think music/fashion/blah has a great deal to do with how young black and asian kids self identify (and therefore behave)"

Remove the racial card from this statement and re-read it to see if it is in any way less relevant or true.

"we have the money and the privelege to ignore stories"

????? Now I'm stumped.

I know you said that you aren't advancing theories, but I don't see any currency in any of the claims in this particular post. Just my humble opinion.
 
 
No star here laces
10:01 / 08.01.03
Mu, first off I want to kiss you for talking so much sense in this thread. I was about to have to go get my four pound and murder murder murder these motherfuckers.

Next I want to disagree with you.

I kind of know what Runce is on about, though I do think it's suspect territory. When I go to hip-hop, ragga or garage nights in London, which admittedly isn't that often because I do feel intimidated (music makes me conquer fear...), I do see a different energy to the kind of thing going on at white or middle class music events (i.e. nearly all the other ones). There is a very close identification with what is going on on stage, and you do get a lot of scary stuff going around - a lot of stare-offs, shooting motions and crazy-eyed singing along. (it could be the crack)

BUT the difficulty is that it's impossible to attribute cause. The argument that black youth identify more closely with their musical heroes because of a lack of role models both makes intuitive sense and sets off my Guardian alarm. I guess a less loaded way to say it might be that hip-hop et al might have more of an effect on black youth than white youth because it represents a smaller fraction of the total amount of aspirational culture absorbed by whites.

However, I'd still return to my original point which is that EVEN if this effect is present, social and economic context still trumps music any day, night or even week.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
10:09 / 08.01.03
"The events in Birmingham are symptomatic of something very, very serious. For years I have been very worried about these hateful lyrics that these boasting macho idiot rappers come out with"

OK, here is the crux.

Damn right the events in Birmingham are symptomatic of something very serious.

But it AIN'T the lyrics in songs by popular beat combo's.

And it certainly ain't something which is likely to affect Howell's and his little homunculi, tucked away in the Green Belt or wherever. However, the guy's head is planted so firmly up his backside, that when he hears the lilt of SSC coming coming from his spawn's bedroom, it worries the funny little guy, 'cos in HowellsLand, things like that are part of a simple, Newtonian chain of cause and effect, since all the serfs and dumb beasts over which he has dominion are incapable of seperating art and life, and react B.F Skinner - like to every wee stimulus that drifts through their peanut brains.

I think it shows utter contempt for the public to suggest that music is a primary factor in social ills. And if the Howellsites truly believe it is, then leave SSC to do their own DIY thing as the free market Holy Bible dictates they should, and clamp down on the big corporations who should know better than to mass market and profit from such dangerous and subversive sentiment. The creator has no power of distribution after all. Call the media to account.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:43 / 08.01.03
Kisses to you too Byron.

The whole shenanigans just reeeks of the 1920's newspaper moral panic (please, someone dig out a groovy link here) over jazz clubs where all the little English Roses were to be seen cavorting, nay, deflowering themselves, with "gentlemen of colour".

I think Howells is just terrified by the fact that a bunch of black street urchins are
i - On the telly all the time
ii - Being listened to by the yoof of the nation (unlike his cronies)
iii - Drinking Champagne, egads, and bloody earning a crust. Like, who the hell let these buggers in from the fields????

I'm sure he equally dislikes Mr. Mathers, but the latter "clearly thinks he's black anyway" and hangs out with the gentlemen
 
  

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