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N L Please

  
 
Seth
13:58 / 24.09.01
I'm a bit of a stranger to the Headshop, so please forgive me if this has been a topic discussed in depth (and probably with more eloquence, intelligence and learning):

I've been reading a book on NLP (my introduction to the subject), and I've been fairly surprised that it hasn't come with a warning or disclaimer. I'm under no illusion that the techniques involved have been around as long as mankind, but presenting them as a single technology should bring a measure of responsibility to those presenting it's application. Maybe I've chosen a crap book for my introduction (probably. I hope so. To be honest, apart from the exercises, it's pretty lame).

My reservations centre around the tenet, "If a belief system causes you problems, change it." It equates belief systems with what informs your approach to a situation, and evaluates the system by the results. "Results" being a profoundly subjective term…

Example?

1) A salesman adopts ruthless techniques in order to advance his product. Feelings of guilt arise from his belief system as he views how his new approach is hurting people. The belief system could be one of two; his previously held morality; or the new sales methods. The "results" can be viewed in two ways; it could be the increased sales; or it could be the guilt. So which belief system "failure" does he take on board? Many people (myself included, on occasion) opt for holding to the metaphorical sales technique and reprogramming the guilt response (possibly adopting Darwinist reasoning, in this example). This leads to another question: would we feel guilty for removing the guilt response? And would we attempt to remove that guilt through reframing?

This is my main question for the board. However, I've got a few minor queries:

2) I'm an artist. My artistic mind is utterly dependent on exactly the kind of "dysfunction" that NLP seeks to smooth away. I like the fact that my mind has a weird sense of proportion, makes bizarre connections, and makes me antisocial on occasion. How then, do I balance responsible use of the techniques for coming to terms with past experiences, memories and approaches, while simultaneously wanting to use the same techniques in the opposite way to enhance creative payoff? I need to "feel" what I write. Are my artistic methods flawed? Am I a needlessly, pretentiously, insufferably precious artistic "Christ" asshole? No - wait: don't answer that.

3) Memory. We all know it's imperfect. People who claim experience as "proof" of anything are as misguided as those who claim photographic evidence as gospel. I remember fragments of my perception of events which I later interpret, even going back and rewriting the interpretation at a later stage. I'm sure I could rewrite my childhood memories if I wanted to . So: what responsibility do I have to myself to ensure I don't go too far? To cut and paste my life as I see fit? I've been doing it all my life anyway (and so have you, for that matter). Now I have a "user-friendly how-to technology" to make whatever amendments I want. Huzzah! (Cue childhood memories of pod races and droid friendship)

4) Persuasion techniques. Become David Koresh in five easy steps. Ok: that's overstating the case, but you see my point. Becoming an adept in reprogramming other people has to come with a "Warning" sign, doesn't it?

Is this post alarmist? Answers on a post(modern)card...
 
 
AilleCat
12:35 / 25.09.01
Interesting subject, even if I'm not sure what NLP is.....

but I was personally imprisoned in a cult-like institution (for those that remember Dane getting sent away in the first series of The Invisibles, it was almost like that) for more info look here: Information on Straight and KIDS.

Anything of the sort when we're talking about reprogramming people should be consentual, (yes I believe in consentual reprogramming), but when one is brainwashing others for selfish purposes, non-consentually, theres a danger of all kinds of things, like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder to other mental illness, and classic behaviour modification techniques can be pretty dangerous.

-Trish
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:13 / 25.09.01
I haven't read enough on NLP to really know what it's about so I'll make my one statement and get out of the way of anybody who does know.

I've run into lots of people who have studied NLP at various depths and almost all of them, even when they're people who I respect and trust, have a similar quality: They don't seem to speak from their truth, they speak from their agenda. That agenda may be a good and admirable one but I would prefer to not be spoken to as if I'm a salesman's 'mark'.
 
 
grant
18:03 / 25.09.01
I wonder how quiz kid is doing -- he used to be our resident NLPer.
Apparently there's a widening gulf between the motivational/corporate faction and the Bandler/magickal faction. Bandler is one of the inventors of the discipline, and is constantly plowing further and further out into odd body/mind/language coordination & correspondence. The corporate guys get much better airplay, because, after all, they're in it for Success.

This topic, by the way, is supposedly one of the central themes of The Magick forum, although it hasn't popped up in there lately.
 
 
w1rebaby
19:59 / 25.09.01
Dammit. I thought this was going to be about Natural Language Processing, I know something about that, but I don't know anything about neuro linguistic processing.

It's a bit like when I used to say "Oh, I do AI" when asked what degree I did, and people would smirk. Turns out they all thought it was Artificial Insemination. The ignorant fucks.
 
 
Ariadne
09:19 / 26.09.01
I'm wary of it too, and for similar reasons to Lothar - I don't like what it's done to people I know. It becomes their only focus.

It seems a bit cult-like to me, due to

1) the fact they can only speak through the filter of NLP and what it's done for them

2) the need to convince other people to do it too

3) the amount of time and money it starts to take up

and 4) the way it distances people from their previous friends/ lovers/ family.

This is all based on personal experience of a couple of people, plus stories I've heard of others, so I'd admit it's not necessarily representative of everyone who studies NLP. I'd certainly be concerned if someone I cared about what getting interested in it though.

I also have serious reservations about anything that offers an easy way round guilt or feelings of duty or anything that's not entirely selfish. It'll make their own little life easier, I'm sure but on a wider scale it's a bit of a grim prospect.
 
 
Seth
09:19 / 26.09.01
quote:Originally posted by grant:
This topic, by the way, is supposedly one of the central themes of The Magick forum, although it hasn't popped up in there lately.

I knew I wasn't the only one who saw the parallels between this and magic forms.

I had an idea a while back that there could be nomadic threads (ie, threads that wandered through related forums, perhaps shifting location once a week). I don't know if it's been done before (I'd imagine so, with the length of time the board's been running). If you think it's a good idea, post here and I'll e-mail the moderators (writing an explanatory paragraph to the first post in the process). Time for a topic on Nomadic Threads in The Policy ?
 
 
Seth
09:19 / 26.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Ariadne:
It seems a bit cult-like to me, due to

1) the fact they can only speak through the filter of NLP and what it's done for them

2) the need to convince other people to do it too

3) the amount of time and money it starts to take up

and 4) the way it distances people from their previous friends/ lovers/ family.


Sounds a lot like Christianity to me!
 
 
Ria
20:01 / 28.09.01
the greater the insecurity in yourself I think the more you will lean on a system as the one true way. I have done it.
 
 
Ariadne
22:30 / 28.09.01
Hi Kriztalyne - what do you mean? You've done NLP? Or another system?

I got involved in a 'religious movement' a few years ago that ended up quite heavy and oppressive when I wanted to leave - it seemed safe enough at the time (free meditation classes) and I was lonely and looking for friends in a new city, so I know how easily you can get carried away by this sort of thing.

Which adds to my cynicism about NLP and all easy answers, I suppose

[ 29-09-2001: Message edited by: Ariadne ]
 
 
FinderWolf
22:37 / 29.09.01
So what book is it, expressionless, that you're reading? I've been curious about looking into NLP and reading more about it....I've already learned a bit about hypnosis and the Ericksonian method.

As for the morality of it all, like any tool or approach to something, there is a healthy approach and use of it and an unhealthy approach (and I'm sure the number of unhealthy, selfish in the bad way approaches far outnumbers the healthy uses).

As to where we all draw that line for ourselves, well, that's a part of life and maturity.......in many, many aspects of life besides NLP.

The same discussion has often popped up in the Magick section -- when is it OK for you to use magick for selfish purposes and when is it not OK? There are things that are 'selfish' in a healthy, way, there's even manipulation that is not corrupting and excessively self-serving. We decide what's allowable for ourselves and what's 'bad selfish' every day of our lives. And each person will draw their own conclusions and make their own guidelines, based on their own sense of morality.

And I'm sure that one can learn about NLP and take a few pages from its book and incorporate those techniques into his or her own life, apply them in a way that is not immoral, and not get into the 'cult' mentality that many people here say many get enmeshed in who practice this technique. All it takes is not allowing your sense of self to be eroded, being aware this is just a tool, like so many others we've learned in life to get along in the world. Nothing more than that.

That having been said, what's the name of the book?
 
 
Perfect Tommy
23:30 / 29.09.01
I'm not hugely experienced with NLP, but I think the simple answer is: You change what you want to change, based on your goals. If your ultimate goal is to sell socks more effectively, you try to fade the guilt about your methods. If sock-selling is not the be-all of your existence, you might reframe some other part of the sock-selling process.

Perhaps you could compare it to an exercise program: You might start one because you want to be healthier, or you might start one out of pure vanity. There isn't anything inherently wrong with one over the other, but it might influence the types of exercises you perform, or affect how you change your self-image as you progress.

[ 30-09-2001: Message edited by: doubting thomas ]
 
 
Seth
16:20 / 30.09.01
The book’s called “NLP: The Technology of Achievement.” Naming it isn’t a recommendation.

I absolutely agree that one should use one’s own wisdom when approaching the techniques. However, this particular book advocates a try before you buy approach (do all the exercises as you read, otherwise you won’t fully understand where we’re coming from). There’s also no hint of coming at the exercises from your own value system: it simply states that all value systems should be re-evaluated based on results.

I have made a great many important life choices that involved sticking to what I believed, regardless of what the initial or end results appeared to be. It’s produced some of the most rewarding experiences I’ve had - and some of the greatest practical learning.

My point is, the book seemed to deliberately undermine self-discovery in favour of self-change. I’d like to know if this is a tenet of all NLP, or just one deeply flawed book.

[ 30-09-2001: Message edited by: expressionless ]
 
 
Ria
20:46 / 30.09.01
quote:
[QB]Hi Kriztalyne - what do you mean? You've done NLP? Or another system?
[QB]

another one... more like a trip inside my head than one reinforced by other people... I can't remember off the top of my head but I think I may have done it more than once in a serious way... definitely more than once in a capitalist-consumer way... "if I have this book I can finally learn how to do *this* and figure everything out..." I have also done a little NLP.

[ 30-09-2001: Message edited by: Kriztalyne ]

[ 30-09-2001: Message edited by: Kriztalyne ]
 
 
Saint Keggers
03:08 / 01.10.01
Personally, NLP has been great for me! (doesnt that sound like a commercial jingle?)

While I havent done any formal training (although it is offered in town and im thinking of signing up for it if the price is right) I've read a lot of books on it back in my college days and found many of the techniques valuable in day to day life.

1)As for the sales man senario I dont think eliminating the guilt response would be an applicable action. Guilt (in this case) is not part of the belief system but rather part of the core values.
Starting a path that would lead to the guild would be what you would have to eliminate. Not changing your belief/guilt system but rather putting everything at your diposal to create a method that would have the same outcome but without the factors which cause guilt.

2)Being an 'artist' myself I've found that NLP actually help my art. It didnt 'smooth away' any useful dysfuntions but rather allowed me to decide which dysfuntions were useful and get rid of those which negativly impacted upon me and my art. Even after I had eliminated the impact of the negative things they were still available to use as memories of their impact. (did I confuse you? I think I just confused myself) NLP is sort of like a napkin, you always have it on the table but you only use it when you eat something messy.

3) I dont think I can answer that as I believe its a personal thing. Are there parts of your childhood that you wish to rewrite? Why? How far is too far to you? You have to judge the reprocussions of rewriting vs the effects of not doing so...

4)Reprogramming people? C'mon we all know that dosnt REALLY happen. Now just repeat after me..Kegboy knows all..Kegboy sees all...some are more equal than others...Apekind stands above mankind
..we love KEGBROTHER.
Sure I think it should have that type of warning but then I think that any type of programming should have a warning.

BTW that Tony Robbins infomercial guy is practically all based on NLP. His books are pretty good once you realize that its only the techniques you want and not his take on life (unless thats what you want.)
 
 
The Knowledge
13:39 / 01.10.01
quote:Originally posted by kegboy:

BTW that Tony Robbins infomercial guy is practically all based on NLP. His books are pretty good once you realize that its only the techniques you want and not his take on life (unless thats what you want.)

I'm new here so feel free to ignore me but I think you're going to drive more people away from NLP by admitting this.

[ 01-10-2001: Message edited by: Malphas ]
 
 
Ria
09:41 / 02.10.01
funnily seeing some sleazeball guy on a talk show... I don't know how I made the link between him and NLP... had me interested. I could see in a general way how he did what he did i.e. removed a phobic block from a volunteer... for how long I don't know though.

[ 02-10-2001: Message edited by: Ria ]
 
 
Seth
14:09 / 02.10.01
quote:Originally posted by kegboy:
Guilt (in this case) is not part of the belief system but rather part of the core values.

How does one distinguish between the belief system and the core values? Can core values be changed as easily (I doubt it)?

quote:Originally posted by kegboy:
Even after I had eliminated the impact of the negative things they were still available to use as memories of their impact. (did I confuse you? I think I just confused myself) NLP is sort of like a napkin, you always have it on the table but you only use it when you eat something messy.

Not confusing at all: very well explained.

quote:Originally posted by kegboy:
Are there parts of your childhood that you wish to rewrite? Why? How far is too far to you? You have to judge the reprocussions of rewriting vs the effects of not doing so...

Sorry if my post wasn't clear. I don't wish to rewrite any of my memories specifically. I was talking about the ability to rewrite memory in general, and the fact that we are all engaged in it every day, to some degree. For example, one of my friends had what he thought was a disastrous first date with a girl he really liked last night. Throughout the day I have given him a series of ways in which he can reinterpret the experience differently to his initial assumptions. He has gone from thinking, "She's a headcase," to, "She seems like a complex, intriguing yet flawed human being, in whom I may still have an interest." The memory has become fleshed out in more detail, from a wider range of perspectives, taking in a diverse spectrum of possibilities. According to Stoatie's article, it's also possible to alter actual remembered events (I'm sure if I think back hard enough I'll remember some from my own life. Unless I add them in for the purposes of remembering )

quote:Originally posted by kegboy:
Reprogramming people? C'mon we all know that dosnt REALLY happen.

Giggled my ass off (especially in the light of current events). Cheers, kegboy - it's a subject I need to laugh about right now (or I'll do something else).

quote:Originally posted by kegboy:
Sure I think it should have that type of warning but then I think that any type of programming should have a warning.

Absolutely.
 
 
The Knowledge
14:35 / 02.10.01
quote:Originally posted by kegboy:
NLP is sort of like a napkin, you always have it on the table but you only use it when you eat something messy.


except that most people use their napkin to be polite not just when they eat big old nasty meals. Proper manners you know. Have to put it in your lap and dab your mouth now and then just in case you got some on you. Then you have to put it back on the table to indicate you're done with your meal.

Then there are those that stuff their NLP in their shirts like bibs.
 
 
Saint Keggers
04:32 / 04.10.01
Uh, Malphas?
I have no idea what you meant by that or where you were going with it...
 
 
Seth
06:41 / 04.10.01
I think he was amusing himself (and me) by taking the metaphor too far.
 
 
The Knowledge
13:20 / 04.10.01
What I was trying to say was that, in the same way that most people don't just use a napkin for big messy spills, I'm not sure that NLP users can't help but use it for the smaller situations taht they wander into. Use it as a crutch and get off on the power - dabbing their mouths when they may not have food on it but ya just got to make sure. Bobby decides to talk about his favorite TV show with a friend gets into all hot and bothered and uses his NLP to convince his friend that his show is most excellent.

I'm not sure but I think my stuffing the NLP down your shirt comment meant people who announce their into NLP before trying to convince you of something.

They probably wipe their bbq sauce on their pants too.
 
  
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