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Trance, Spirit Possession and Seidr

  
  

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Haloquin
00:26 / 28.02.08




And then Emberleo Replied;

Haloquin: I decided to use a rune I pulled for focus; Laguz. I got startling results and am not sure I want to scry around the runes like this until I'm better at it generally. It seemed to result in contact with what I assume is the rune-spirit. Who then (reasonably) wanted payment in return for helping (which I gave, but wasn't expecting).

I personally don't experience the runes as Personified in that sense, though I know others who do. So if I had such an encounter, I would not feel safe assuming that such being was the spirit of the rune rather than someone else entirely. I would probably inquire as politely as possible as to who exactly wanted payment, and precisely what for, and what kind, and then do my best to pay my debt.

So, please can I have suggestions for symbols to focus on for practice?

I understand that you're using the symbol for focus, but are you using it for subject focus or technique focus?

Tarot cards seem like an obvious choice if you want something to give you a subject-specific focus.

If it's for focus of technique you're after, I think I would want to use as neutral a symbol as possible - one that represents "Divination" to me in the general sense. To that end, I would probably design my own.

But that may only be useful if I either already have a topic to focus on that I'm trying to divine, or else have arranged for the question to be asked of me after I have established the divinatory space.

Or would anyone recommend jumping headfirst in and sticking with the runes?

That would depend on my having a bigger picture of your overall goals and beliefs, which I'm afraid I haven't been tracking - sorry. I don't think folks need to run screaming from the Runes at all cost. I do think the practice should be respected. I do think that if you definitely never want Odin's attention, avoiding runes would help. I don't think learning the runes guarantees Odin's attention. I think if you're going to study the runes, you should not only study multiple modern sources, but multiple translations of the origional rune poems if at all possible.

I don't think this is an unreasonable use of runes, but given your context, and that it's not quite Galdr, I would estimate that you're mixing runes with Seidh, which is likely to produce fairly interesting, and potentially highly effective results, but definitely won't help you stay away from the attention of otherworldly beings and spirits.

I am a bit curious - were you trying to learn more about Laguz, or what?

If so, any pointers for how best to go about it without causing offence or incurring stupid debts? (Accepting, for the moment, the validity of this perspective.)

What sort of payment was requested? If it's just that recognition and offerring is desired, and you're fairly well certain it's the spirit of the rune itself, it may be a matter of pouring out some good ale or cider - or, if you can get it, a bit of mead - before you do such work again.

Sincerity, honesty, and respect go a long way.

Also out of curiosity; would this, in your opinions, be classed as scrying?

I would perhaps label it a form of Spae. I suppose Scrying is also a form of Spae, but I don't have a sense of what defines "scrying" so I can't really help you there.

--Ember--
 
 
Haloquin
00:29 / 28.02.08

Haloquin;

Thank you IDS and Emberleo, very helpful posts with much to think about. As a result this turned out much longer than I intended!

a sigil might be the way to go. Custom-made for whatever you're scrying...

That's if you need a symbol to get you going. Does the image have to be a symbol? Could you, instead, visualize the person/place/situation/etc. that you want to scry? - The Infinite Dream Syndicate

A sigil may be a good idea. I'll try it. Thanks.
I've tried once or twice focussing on people/places, but I found it harder to concentrate on than one symbol. Perhaps thats because I was using family, and I have so many stories and images that I couldn't focus on one, which made it difficult to let other images arise. Not using a symbol leaves my mind blank (good for empty brain meditations!), so I'd prefer to have something.

I personally don't experience the runes as Personified in that sense, though I know others who do. So if I had such an encounter, I would not feel safe assuming that such being was the spirit of the rune rather than someone else entirely. I would probably inquire as politely as possible as to who exactly wanted payment, and precisely what for, and what kind, and then do my best to pay my debt. - Emberleo

Thats a good point. It seemed right, but I don't remember if I double checked. I've felt the rune-spirits as personified before, and have a certain degree of expecting them to be. It was an offering, which was easy enough to give. It seemed to be asked for as a mark of respect, a kind of reminder that I shouldn't expect them just to help me because I want them to, and a payment in return for good information. I should perhaps check what I was told against the rune-poems and see if there was a correlation. I'm letting it mull over for a bit before I do anything more with it though.

I understand that you're using the symbol for focus, but are you using it for subject focus or technique focus?

The idea was as technique focus, so I'll try making a sigil/symbol. It seemed that it became a subject focus, and I suspect I might need a subject to focus on, rather than just leaving it open. I have trouble just opening up generally, so this will be an interesting experiment. If it turns out that the lack of subject is a block I'll try the tarot cards although I hope I'll continue without in case there is something important to be learned here.

That would depend on my having a bigger picture of your overall goals and beliefs, which I'm afraid I haven't been tracking - sorry. I don't think folks need to run screaming from the Runes at all cost. I do think the practice should be respected. I do think that if you definitely never want Odin's attention, avoiding runes would help. I don't think learning the runes guarantees Odin's attention. I think if you're going to study the runes, you should not only study multiple modern sources, but multiple translations of the origional rune poems if at all possible. - Emberleo

Theres no reason you should have been tracking my beliefs or goals, so please don't apologise. Since entering paganism I've avoided the Nordic-related deities, magics etc. Irrationally wary of them even when I've known nothing about them (Where conversely I've been more than willing to poke every other system I've come across). So, when I realised that I likely had a connection with Hella already I was unsure, but have, over the past year, very slowly gotten more involved. I'm currently moving where I feel led, and scrying is next on the list - both from ancestor work, from the poking in the back of my brain I associate with Hella, and co-incidentally, recent Feri work.

I was going somewhere with that but got distracted - original thought was that I'm not seeking attention from anyone, but I'm trying to not be irrationally scared by it and to be open to contact if it comes. So I'm not going to go out of my way to either avoid or bug Odin, or other beings.

Yes! Homework! Over the years I've read quite a few books with information on the runes, and I collected a translation of the rune-poems, which I have somewhere and keep meaning to dig out. With the tarot I've tended to read them intuitively, relating the images to what they trigger (although I've recently lost touch with Tarot, I am very out of practice). The runes never quite worked like that, I've learnt book-meanings over the years but that seems to limit me when I try to interpret them, not that I've done as much as I mean to with them. But this, scying, it seems to me like it might be a good way to go to learn them and understand them on a deep level and a part of me worries that learning the book-work too hard will influence what I gain directly. On the other hand, there is so much information it would be silly to not make use of it and use it as a spring-board for further learning.

I don't think this is an unreasonable use of runes, but given your context, and that it's not quite Galdr, I would estimate that you're mixing runes with Seidh, which is likely to produce fairly interesting, and potentially highly effective results, but definitely won't help you stay away from the attention of otherworldly beings and spirits. - Emberleo

Like I said, I don't mind getting attention (although it does scare me) but I don't want to wave a big red 'I don't really know what I'm doing' flag and annoy beings I might one day have dealings with. It was a very effective feeling session, but, yeah, the payment request seemed to be a reminder that I'm not owed anything and shouldn't expect free favours (I hadn't intended to, in any case, but it certainly brought it home).

I am a bit curious - were you trying to learn more about Laguz, or what? - Emberleo

That wasn't the main objective, but I did think it would be a result. I want to practice the technique so I'm sure of it before I go applying it in areas I'm not sure of.

It felt like I looked into zir world, and ze showed me some of zir essence/meaning (?) I wasn't expecting to talk to someone, I was expecting - if anything happened, which I was doubting - to see images that connected with the meaning. I thought it would be good practice to look for something (which I could hopefully check) but that wouldn't involve asking someone for information - forgot scrying can be a contact method.

I would perhaps label it a form of Spae - Emberleo

How would you define Spae? I've been a little confused between the distinctions between Seidr, Spae, and everthing else. Galdr, as far as I can tell, is more about manipulating the world using runes, a kind of active spell-casting or magician type work?

Perhaps it would be best to write down questions to sigilise that I can then use as a focus. I wonder if words would work as well as a symbol? /musing
 
 
Haloquin
00:30 / 28.02.08
And then there was Talas;

How would you define Spae? I've been a little confused between the distinctions between Seidr, Spae, and everthing else.

A few definitions, to the best of my knowledge:

Galdr is partially like you say, 'manipulating the world using runes', but specifically through chanting/singing -- think incantation. Though historically galdr didn't have to, mostly today galdr involves singing runes specifically.

Though there's still not a clear line between spae and seidh, most divination, prophecy, foretelling, etc. is generally defined as spae. Seidh seems to me to be a much larger and less defined category, encompassing most of the rest of "women's magic"* -- witchy magic, trance, journeying, spirit work, etc.


* Kind of a misnomer. Seidh was seen as "women's" magic, but you've got mythological and historical reports of men practicing it, including Old One Eye, Ragnvald Rettilbeini, Eyvindr Kelda, and likely others. I'd direct you to Hrafnar, which is one of the few practicing seidh groups: http://www.hrafnar.org/seidh.html
 
 
Haloquin
00:31 / 28.02.08
Then EmberLeo said;

*laughs* Okay, I'm in Hrafnar and Seidhjallr. That said, we are far from the only group practicing it, we're just one of the most visible to non-Heathens because Seidhjallr is one of, if not the, oldest group that practices a modern reconstruction of Oracular Seidh. There are now plenty of groups that have learned the Hrafnar/Seidhjallr form of Oracular seidh, as well as other groups that have reconstructed their own versions according to their own needs and perceptions.

By the way, Talas - the site you listed has been mostly moved and expanded to Seidh.org.

Talas has describe my understanding for the most part - Spae is a sub-set of Seidh. Spae refers to the use of Seidh for Oracular purposes, but also, in the more general sense, it refers to Divination - usually via altered conciousness.

Seidh refers to more uses of that kind of trance magic than just Divination. The basic idea is that while Spae is a passive use of Seidh that allows one to view the web of Wyrd, there's no particular reason one cannot, with effort, use the same technique to manipulate that web. We generally don't, if only because a little mistake can go a long way. But as another member of Seidhjallr points out - observing a thing changes it, so at best, Spae is simply more passive than other uses of Seidh.

As for the "woman's magic" argument, I like the observation that the reasoning behind this, and the ambiguity of the term "Ergi", is that men of those cultures were expected to be very up-front about their concerns even to the point of starting fist- or sword-fights with eachother when they dissagreed. A woman without a man to protect her interests was perhaps left to her own devices, and starting a sword fight was clearly not her best option. Since this was known and understood, for a woman to resort to Seidh to solve a problem was not considered untoward. But for a man to do so would be cowardly, womanish - ergi.

The other side of the argument for "ergi" is that the kind of magic that Seidh is requires an openness largely discouraged in men - in the same way being on the receiving end of penetrative sex was discouraged. This manifests in other cultures that have trance magic as well, actually, such that trance magic is for women and gay men only in those contexts. But I'm no expert on the topic. Today we certainly don't expect men to solve problems with swords, first of all, and second of all, we (in Seidhjallr at least) don't have a problem with men - straight or gay - performing Seidh. My boyfriend does, and he's decidedly heterosexual.

And lastly, yes, my understanding is that "Galdr" refers to the kind of magic that involves the voice - but not necessarily only of Runes. Other kinds of vocalized Charms are also Galdr. It's arguable that Seidhjallr's ritual, as well as the ritual described in Eric the Red's Saga, use Galdr to establish the Seidh state. But that depends on how you look at it, I suppose. Most folks are referring to rune chanting when they refer to Galdr.

To bring that back to the gender question - Galdr would be more acceptable for men because it is very overt.

--Ember--
 
 
Haloquin
00:32 / 28.02.08
Haloquin replied;

Thank you both, so so helpful.

I've gotten the strong impression that it is possible to move through and into what you are viewing. I'm using a (black) mirror so that might have something to do with it as when I was younger I always associated mirrors with doors into other places, but the next step to seeing the threads being to manipulate them makes a lot of sense to me. I used to practice weather magic; when it rained I would sing to it and it would stop, I'd ask the wind to blow a different direction and it would - all potentially coincidences but that is beside the point - I stopped because I began to realise that effecting the weather in one area can have a major impact elsewhere, and I didn't want to be responsible for that. So I can understand the principle of not poking wyrd-threads directly!
 
 
Haloquin
00:34 / 28.02.08
And lastly Emberleo commented;
Haloquin - a friend from Seidhjallr reminded me that the technique you used to scry with Laguz resembles meditations consciously designed and employed by some of the folks around here. Those meditations, at least in her case, resulted in contact with a guide. Her guide turned out to be her dearly departed mother, but I'm sure results varied.

I knew about that meditation method for digging deeper into the runes, but wasn't sure if I'd mentioned it directly to you yet. So yeah, you've stumbled on a variation of a pre-existing method that works quite well for other students of the runes.

--Ember--

************
After this it became an interesting discussion about gender and reconstruction and history, which will hopefully end up in its own thread soon!

So, here for ease of finding and continued discussion. Any more for any more?
 
 
EmberLeo
05:55 / 28.02.08
I would gladly continue to discuss, but in some ways I think it's easier to talk about topics that are less prevalent in my life, because I can find one end of the string and pull. This topic interweaves with so much of my spiritual practice that I think on it and just get the whole pile!

I was one of the seers in the chair for Oracular Seidh at PantheaCon this year. It is only the second time I've sat chair at PCon - the biggest crowd we ever get, hands-down. Last time was a couple years ago, and a traumatic experience, as Odin, once requested, strode right past my checkpoint, ignoring it entirely, and my preference against this, and sat right down to talk through me. I'm still working on the results of that particular adventure.

This time I got hot and cold running god requests. Most of them did NOT try to possess me, even had I offered. I'm a little surprised - but relieved - nobody asked for Odin. He had been called on the first seeress (I was 3rd), though, so that's probably why not. They did eventually call for Freya, but last, and by then I was very tired. So She came, and She spoke well enough I suppose, and everyone was happy, but then I was done.

But what stood out was that early on somebody requested Freyr, and - BAM! - He was right there. I don't think I took two breaths between the request and His arrival. It wasn't at all shocking to my system or painful at all.

But I noticed - that checkpoint? The one Odin walked right past without acknowledging? It wasn't even between me and Freyr to begin with. He didn't walk past it, acknowledgment or not. He didn't have to travel that far to sit down in the first place. And while this bothers me intellectually - emotionally, I'm fine.... and that bothers me, because it's totally illogical, and makes me wonder what I'm willfully ignoring.

--Ember--
 
  

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