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Magicians for Jesus!

 
  

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penitentvandal
18:32 / 02.01.03
No, don't laugh - this is a serious idea.

Alright, it's not a serious idea. It's a daft, crazy, silly, bladder-on-a-stick Erisian idea, but hear me out, okay?

And I warn you now, it's loooooooong.

George W Bush is a 'Christian'. He follows the teachings of a gentle, long-haired preacher-man who, two millenia ago, the story goes, got together with a band of his followers and travelled around the country, questioning the established order, helping social outcasts, spreading a philosophy of peace and love, and preaching against social inequality. So pacifistic was this mystic that he encouraged one of his own followers to put down the sword he had drawn to protect him when agents of the state came to arrest him, put him on trial, and have him executed. Jesus was a poor man, born among the shit and filth of animals, and put to death in the company of thieves. Even in his torment, however, this peaceful, Gandhi-like figure called upon God to forgive his enemies. Inspiring, eh?

Thing is...George W Bush supports the death penalty. George W Bush supports laws which disproportionately target the socially excluded urban poor, many of whom wind up in jail or on death row. George W Bush is an oil millionaire, born into a wealthy family, a friend of many corrupt CEOs and repressive governments. He supports war against the people of Iraq and North Korea, and has introduced measures to curtail freedom of speech, movement and assembly in his own country. Where Jesus discouraged violence, Bush opposes gun control - an anti-violence measure. Where Jesus tolerated, and even welcomed, the company of social outcasts like the prostitute Mary Magdalen, Bush is a staunch family values man, sexually conservative and anti-abortion. Where Jesus healed the sick, Bush presides over one of the most unequal health services in the world, and does nothing about it. Where Jesus fed the hungry, Bush presides over a global economy that keeps millions in poverty and hunger throughout the developing world.

I could go on, but I really have to ask - exactly how much do the beliefs of 'Christians' like George W Bush, and thousands like him - echo the teachings of Jesus Christ? Not much, I'd say...

Nope. Nuh-uh. Gentle spiritually inclined pacifist? Friend to the socially excluded? Questioning the social order? Doesn't sound much like one of those rich, republican 'Christians' to me. Sounds more like...Well, like us, frankly. Us magicians. Hell, he even had long hair and wore robes, dude! How obvious does this comparison have to be?

And frankly, I'm sick of having one of my fellow magicians dragged through the mud because of this association of his name with right-wing ideology and war against poor brown people. It's defamation of character, that's what it is. Pure bloody slander. And, personally, I don't intend to stand for it any longer.

I propose that we, as magicians, launch a meme with the intent of alerting people to our campaign to free Jesus from his vile, archetypal bondage to these merchants of death. He's one of us, for God's sake! He's mates with Grant Morrison! He visited Grant when he was in hospital! And we're just gonna let him have his good name soiled by his association with a goddam criminal like George W Bush? I don't think so!

Thus, I solicit your opinions as to what form the proposed 'Magicians for Jesus' meme should take. Any suggestions are welcome: logo designs - the kitschier the better, campaigning tips, hell, even deeply disturbed theorybitching. I suggest that we launch the meme on or around January 6th, the feast day of the Epiphany, when, according to the Bible - George W Bush's alleged 'Holy Book' - the infant Christ was visited and acclaimed by the three Persian magi. Let's see how they object to this campaign when we tell them it's in their own bloody book, eh?

Thank you for your time, brothers and sisters. And if anyone knows Moby's phone number, y'know, give the fucker a ring, coz I figure we could get him interested. Y'know, bribe him with nut roasts if necessary. Cheers.
 
 
grant
19:15 / 02.01.03
I wonder how this idea would fly over at Cross and Flame Forums.

How's this differ from the Fightin' Jesus of the SubGenius?
 
 
gotham island fae
19:40 / 02.01.03
Ooooh! I like this idea a lot!

I have long held the belief that the true intent of Jesus' work on this globe has been painted over by so many layers of fallacious social programming that what is commonly perceived is nothing like the truth of it.

As for the specifics of elucidating the real, invisible nature of the man, I would be wary of trumping Xristians with their own book. It would certainly push nay-sayers into a corner logically. However, absolutist fundamentalists have a very tenuous grasp on logic when it comes to their dogma. Most likely, one would just get a response that, "Satan, too, can bend scripture to his will".

Then, I imagine that the idea here isn't to convert. Conversion is one of the many malignant ideologies that have been tacked onto Jesus' work. No sense in continuing the same malevolent memes. Best to provide a voice and a face for the man that better portrays the inclusive, unconditional LUV that he exemplified.
 
 
penitentvandal
21:07 / 02.01.03
grant - I'm not all that familiar with the Fightin' Jesus, but I'll have a look thru my Subgenius books and see if there is a diffy. I guess the main one is that FJ is a parody of that gung-ho, fifties-rooted right-wing Xtianity, while what i want to do is less a straight parody and more of a mindfuck.

Frater Fae - yes, 'the devil can cite scripture to his purpose'...Which is why I'm not intent on conversion, really. What I want to do is create a meme/media virus drawing attention to the ideas espoused above. They're not new, but what I want to do is wrap them in a shiny package and give them a more public airing.

Also, as a magical tactic it moves things up from Marilyn Manson style 'I am Satan' posturing. During the past few years, as the weird Fight Club/Matrix/Xtrmntr/Slipknot stormer current was doing the rounds, there was some value in that kind of heavy oppositional posturing. But with the forthcoming LOTR/psychedelic/pacifist/pastoral vibe coming in, we need something with less anger and more humour.

And it's good Invisibles influenced thinking, too. 'Make friends with them until they beg for mercy' and all that...
 
 
enough
21:20 / 02.01.03
Lest we forget that "Jesus" was taught in India and other "mystical" cities from age 13 till 30 when he returned to be baptized.

And that the crucifixion was base on Simon Magus according to the paraphrase of Shem in the Gnostic Gospels.

It was another, Simon, theor brother,who wore the crown of thorns and hung on the cross...
 
 
mixmage
22:20 / 02.01.03
Stopped reading at grant's post - may post again when I finish reading the thread.

As an ordained SubGenius Minister, I am licensed to spout on all apocrypha attributable to the Great Church of Slack. The Fighting Jesus is the Kick-ass Christ who overturned the tables of the money launderers and whipped 'em in the eyes. He is a good friend of the Two Fisted Buddha, yeah - that Kung-Fu geezer.

Jesus the Mage is the Fella who can walk on water, then turn it into a lake of wine... Naturally, the other two hang out with him a lot.

... actually, "the Lord's Prayer" ends with the cabbalistic cross [excuse the hebrew] Atah malkuth ve geburah ve gedulah leolam amen, With the distinction being the balance between the Tyrant ruler and the merciful king, rather than all that power and glory. err... I think. I'll shut up for a bit.
 
 
Seth
23:30 / 02.01.03
Now, I'm certainly one for subversive Christianity... you just have to be very careful how you do it. Humour is fine, but you have to avoid making it look like you're taking the piss if you really want to make friends and influence people. If all you want is to get a kick out of it, then ignore the above.
 
 
SMS
00:25 / 03.01.03
I believe that our President is a United Methodist. The UMC bishops (speaking as Bishops and not as the dogma of the church) have issued a statement in opposition to war in Iraq. So have a number of other Christian churches. They all took out an add in the New York Times saying, "Jesus changed your heart. Now let him change your mind." Of course, that was just about one war. I think we're talking about much more.

Jesus' favourite and most effective meme machine was the parable. I'm sure some of the parables of the bible are appropriate to what we're saying here. Unfortunately, they may have lost some of their original weight to many of us. There's a version of the New Testament that translates some of these into the language of the American (U.S.) South. That sounds more foreign. Or we could make up somne of our own. Then again, Jesus was really a master of parables, and I don't know of anybody else n history who has been able to make a parable like Jesus. (Mini-hypersigils?)
 
 
mixmage
02:55 / 03.01.03
"Not quite sure
on that which you just spoke.
Was that a parable
or a very subtle joke?"
[/threadrot]
 
 
Yagg
04:53 / 03.01.03
This is gonna be rough. The very name "Jesus" provokes an instant reaction in most, and that reaction tends to be towards the centuries of dogma formulated by various churches for the last 2000 years or so. The name itself is powerful. We have to get through that first.

What about an effort directed towards re-education? I fled my Christian upbringing many years ago, only to have my magickal studies lead me back, this time through a gnostic/mystic path. The more I read and research, the more I realize that Christianity as it once was, purer and closer to it's source, is a FAR cry from what it is now called "Christian." But these things tend to be known only to Bible scholars, Barbelithers, and such. Is there a way we could help bring this information closer to the mainstream?

Getting back to names and the power of words: I propose that we hereafter refer to Christ as "Yeshua," not "Jesus." For one, that was the dude's real name in Aramaic. (Or something very like it: Yishwe and Yehoshua are some variants.) There was no "Jesus," a name created by layers of translation. This is also symbolic: We discard the name mainstream Christians use in favor of the original name, just as we discard the values of so-called Christianity in an effort to recapture the orginal spirit of the faith. Or Spirit of the faith, if you prefer. Maybe we differentiate between Christians and "Yeshuans?" "Yeshites?" Hmmm. This name game needs some work.

--Yagg the Yeshuan
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
05:50 / 03.01.03
We'll probably need Haus in here to check my references again, but Jesus didn't appear in a vacuum 2003 years ago. There were mythic, political, and philosophical precedents for everything he did and said. To put the problem a little more synchretically, there are lots of Jesuses and lots of other gods calling themselves Jesus for convenience. You guys are just likely to add to the crowd. Best to seriously embrace one of them and do His work, or forget the whole lot and do your own.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
05:53 / 03.01.03
Lest we forget that "Jesus" was taught in India and other "mystical" cities from age 13 till 30 when he returned to be baptized.

Eh, India's not a city.

No, I know what you meant. It was just such a great opportunity to be snarky.

Yagg, I believe his earliest worshippers, who went underground after Christianity was outlawed, used the code Chrestians, meaning 'simple men'. How's that grab ya?
 
 
Seth
10:00 / 03.01.03
Too close to Christian, Qalyn. It could be misconstued as a regional dialect, especially in the UK. "A'hm a feckin' Chrestiun, fecker."

I do really like Yagg's idea, but I also have to point out that every religion makes a claim to antiquity, or at least to precede all other concurrent movements, which are soon denounced as heresy. Your idea seems to tread that particular knife edge. Does the age of a belief have any bearing on its validity?

I've been considering writing my own Christian scripture for some time, if only to draw the disparate strands of my evolving faith together into some kind of semi-coherent pattern. I've also had a few ideas for a Viral Scripture Society, who make it their mandate to disseminate alternate scripture, whether they are the author, claim authorship from a figure from antiquity, or spread pre-existing scripture, whether *apocryphal* or not. By any means necessary. Fly posting The Thunder, Perfect Mind outside your local Masonic Lodge, that kind of thing. Or just setting up email addresses to churn the stuff out to churches who have websites.

What do you guys think? Just ideas...
 
 
Mike
10:36 / 03.01.03
Simple. If you read the sections of the Bible that were taken out around 64AD you'll find an interesting story telling that Jesus lost his temper with a boy who got in his way and killed the boy instantly with a touch, then healed the boy again out of guilt. If you want to take Jesus from the Christians, why not point out that Jesus was just a better magician than you.
 
 
penitentvandal
14:51 / 03.01.03
Well, exactly. I'm familiar with the 'Jesus' Bruce Lee Touch of Death' story, but I've never read the original. Doesn't it have something to do with the kid wrecking Jesus' fishpond, or something?

I like exp's Viral Scripture Society idea...

More thoughts later, busy.
 
 
Mike
14:58 / 03.01.03
To clarify my position; I think all the evidence points to the conclusion that Jesus had training in the occult orders of the time in that area, and that he had an impressive natal ability. Afterall, did he not say that he would sit on the right of his father (The Middle Pillar) and what is the holy spirit?
 
 
SMS
00:07 / 04.01.03
expressionless: I've also had a few ideas for a Viral Scripture Society, who make it their mandate to disseminate alternate scripture, whether they are the author, claim authorship from a figure from antiquity, or spread pre-existing scripture, whether *apocryphal* or not. By any means necessary.

"By any means necessary" sounds kinda scary...

Evy: If you read the sections of the Bible that were taken out around 64AD you'll find an interesting...

Maybe "left out" of the bible rather than "taken out"? The first book of NT written was Mark, and I don't remember my dates but it all sounds a bit early to me. Sorry if that's nitpicky.

I wonder what our goals are for this project. Are we trying to give Jesus the face He deserves by bringing His magical tradition into our own, or are we trying to bring His teachings out of the darkness of familiarity?
 
 
Seth
00:29 / 04.01.03
Dunno whether there is any set project yet, or if there are clearly defined objectives. That's what we're chatting about.

By any means necessary didn't really mean much in itself - I was just trying to sound fun and dramatic.
 
 
Cubby
04:05 / 04.01.03
Well, i don't know if this will help you, but what you're talking about fits in very nicely with an idea about Jesus for a little while.

Why not divorce the man from the god?

If you take away his divinity, then doesn't the bible become a book of human potential? At times he becomes frustrated at the rate that the disciples advanced, most notably when he walked on water to calm the seas. He called his disciples to him, Simon Peter heeded this call but became afraid and began to sink. Jesus berated him. The lesson was that Simon always had the ability to walk on water. We all do, perhaps.

The parables and teachings he gave may well be a path to this stage, but I don't know nearly enough about magical paths to say fo sure.

And on the matter of the guys name, for quite a while I've just reffered to him as Joshua, more acurate, more human
 
 
Mike
09:02 / 04.01.03
The Bible was rehashed several times by what became the Roman Catholic Church as part of St Pauls charge from the Roman Emperor at the time to create a unifying religion for the Roman Empire. The idea was to stop all the unrest in the empire my getting everyone to join the same religion. At the time the empire encompassed Hebrews, Jews, Mithrals, Zoroastrians, Persians, etc, etc - the list was long, and a lot of them didn't get on very well together. Christianity was an opportunity to get everyone worshipping the same god. This would give the Roman Catholic Church power over all the people, and thus strengthen the Roman Empire. The first book to go in was the Jewish scriptures, the Torah, which became known as the Old Testament, although some very important details were deliberately changed in the translation. The New Testament was written by students of St Paul - they basically wrote what he told them to write. Its interesting that if you read the Gospels there are some stark contradictions between Matthew and Mark (or it could be Matthew and Luke). They write almost opposite stories. So was Jesus the man in the middle? 'The Middle Pillar' Was Baptism a form of enlightenment? Is there really any difference between any religion except for the dogmatic confusions? Personally, I do believe that every religion is pointing at the same thing, I'm just not sure what. If I knew, I'd probably have started my own religion by now. ;-)
 
 
glassonion
09:05 / 04.01.03
i find it tiny odd - most here seem to be conflating 'jesus' w. 'church'. the true object of frustration and disappointment should be paul. as for issa being a trained local mystic of some repute, well yes. most modern scholars prefer the translation 'architect' to 'carpenter'. the poor rarely have time to worry about starting religions of their own and stuff.
 
 
Seth
11:00 / 04.01.03
The lesson was that Simon always had the ability to walk on water. We all do, perhaps.

No, we don't. I've tried. Many times.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
16:07 / 04.01.03
Zoroastrians, Persians,

Same guys.
 
 
Kobol Strom
21:04 / 04.01.03

Jesus is always going to remain a mythical ideology until he actually shows up.I mean,just how much of a popstar would he have to be to get everyone in the world to love him?He'd have to be the best actor/funniest comedian/best guitarist/Oscar nominated Jesus.
What I really resent is the sanctimony that I've been programmed to attatch to any act of personal goodness.
You can't even give a fiver to a homeless person without feeling this sense of gladness and despair.Its a form of mental illness.The xtian culture is all about personal individual acts of good,that no-one hears about,that make us happy with ourselves,that we just can't wait to tell people about...
Our lives become more important to ourselves only when we take the responsibility to make ourselves and the world better.Only to ourselves.
Should we really be so quick to form a self image based on an individual anyway? I find the diversity of human life and knowledge so incomprehensibly vast that to limit myself to just one archetype,as I've been programmed to do,sets in place the very bars of my own cage.
And the irony is,that if we could free Jesus and magicians at the same time,we'd only make martyrs out them both.
 
 
Rev. Wright
22:26 / 04.01.03
'Jesus was a hippie'

Lee Scratch Perry
 
 
Char Aina
23:13 / 04.01.03
wouldnt some new workings of the old tales be the best way to set the meme machines churning?

i mean, with all the creative talent here...
even some pernicious sedition, some stories that "my friends priest told him...", and the like. urban myths of the lord.
 
 
Utopia
06:44 / 05.01.03
OK, I'll try my damndest to make sense.

JC was the (potential) turning point that mankind began evolving into the creator. All religions previous to that point based themselves on subservience to a deity or other force, such as nature (I'm not a theologian. If I'm wrong correct me. But fuck it: it's not who does it first that gets recognition, it's who does it right.). JC came and did away with the Old Testament (Well, not completely. He was a Jew, so his teachings didn't nullify the OT as much as "make a new pact between man and God."). Essentially, JC took the power from the hands of the creator, and placed it (or rather, accepted it) in the hands of man.

JC was the "son of God," right? Well, according to Christian belief, we're all sons (or daughters) of God. By issuing this decree we therefore remove ourselves from the will of "higher powers," be they God or government (yeah, I know, unto God God's and Caesar Caesar's, but this is certainly a rough draft).

So anyway, if we mix in a bit of progressive thought, and view ourselves as extentions of the living universe (God), then our spiritual evolution (becoming "God," taking the assertive role in creation) may actually aid (?) in the evolution of the universe, the end of which being reunification with the universe/God (??).

Hmm, this sounds a bit dodgy. I need to work on it some (and not sitting in front of a computer at 3:40 AM!). As for marketing? Can we subvert a current ad campaign? I see t-shirts that asks What would Jesus do?, with a pic of JC doing some highly un-right wing/Christian, but socially responsible thing (providing health care to the poor, casting the money-changers [Bush] out of the temple [White House]...).
 
 
penitentvandal
13:13 / 05.01.03
Utopia - that's a good idea. Jesus helping starving Iraqi bomb orphans, comforting prisoners in Camp X-Ray, that kind of thing. Jesus visiting Aids patients and queer bashing victims. Jesus hangin' round the red light district looking after ladies of ill virtue. Yes. Provocative. Jesus giving Jimmy Swaggart a slap in the chops...

SMatthewStolte - your second line 'removing the man's teachings from the darkness of familiarity' sums up the basic idea behind this thread much better than my pompous verbosity. Well done. The semiotics students could put me right on the terminology, but the interesting thing about Christianity is that it's iconography has effectively become divorced from it's original memetic payload. A fact brought home to me at midnight mass this year, which I attended out of curiosity, and where I realised that really mass (and any type of service) seems more about worshipping the church (whatever church it is) than on any real encounter with the (quote-unquote) divine. There's something funny about hearing St Paul telling the Cardassians (or whoever it was) that 'through the power of Christ, the wealthy will be laid low' and looking at exactly how much gold, silver, etc there is in the fucking building (partly paid for, I might add, in the case of the RC church, in Nazi victim gold and cash from the Mafia - very righteous).

In fact, didn't Jesus himself castigate the Pharisees for worshipping God in public with pious ostentation? Hmmm.

Kobol (and how nice to see you back, btw) - yes, the whole point is that Jesus is a mythical, ideological figure; what we're considering here is ways of putting another spin on that figure besides his use by what RAW called the 'right to hate who our grandparents hated' lobby.

Also, consider the fact that, in the coming war with Iraq, right-wing twats on both sides are going to try and paint this as a conflict between 'christians' and 'muslims', rather than what it is, which is a conflict between two political elites. By pointing out the hollowness of the western side's 'Christian' virtue, we can hopefully make a little progress in neutering that argument.

Fuck me, do I sound like a theorybitch now or what?
 
 
Yagg
20:15 / 05.01.03
I do really like Yagg's idea, but I also have to point out that every religion makes a claim to antiquity, or at least to precede all other concurrent movements, which are soon denounced as heresy. Your idea seems to tread that particular knife edge. Does the age of a belief have any bearing on its validity?

This is a good point. What I was trying to get at is more in line with what velvet said just now about The Church vs. Christ. Christians are frequently influenced more by the church they belong to rather than the incarnation of God whom their church is supposed to be about. You're right, though, I am treading a rather thin line here.

Part of the problem in finding the "real" Jesus is that our sources are all so questionable. It's generally accepted that Paul's letters were written first. Then the sayings and actions of Jesus were later written down as the Gospels. Then we have a huge body of "apocryphal" works that the church later decided weren't real. (These would include the "Bruce Lee Touch of Death" story mentioned earlier.) On top of all this, the earliest copies we have date back to several hundred years after Christ. God alone knows (!) what was added or subtracted before these texts assumed the forms we know. And there are endless contradictions, even among the accepted, canonical writings.

So what are we left with? Quantum Jesus. The most we can do with all of this disparate information is come up with theories and equations and "fuzzy math" to try to predict his position like some subatomic particle. Turns out maybe Jesus is here, there, both, neither, or all of the above. Maybe we should call this "The Quantum Jesus Project."

Modern churches have interpreted the same sources the same way for so long that they don't even remember that there ARE other ways of viewing Jesus, and there were other viewpoints from the very beginning. Like kobol said, this dogmatic thinking becomes so much programming and self-programming, the bars of the cage. I don't wanna go back in there!

A monolithic, dogmatic Jesus can be dangerous. A broad spectrum of various potential Jesii might work better. (Jesii? Jesuses? Jesuseses?)
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
03:45 / 06.01.03
A monolithic, dogmatic Jesus can be dangerous. A broad spectrum of various potential Jesii might work better. (Jesii? Jesuses? Jesuseses?)

So what you are suggesting is an EWG Manyworlds model of The Christos rather than a Deterministic Newtonian view?

What about a coppenhagenist interpretation. Jesus is the maybe of the quantum logic trinity?

I love the name "The Quantum Jesus Project" and for the personage I would support the name Rabbi Yeshua ben Yosef as the most historically accurate. "We Yeshuans are part of the Quantum Jesus Project," sounds cool, no?
 
 
Yagg
04:49 / 06.01.03
What about a coppenhagenist interpretation. Jesus is the maybe of the quantum logic trinity?

You're WAAAAAYYY ahead of me. But something like that, yes!
 
 
brokenlink
10:12 / 06.01.03
this thread reminds me about the first church of the syntethic christ, that has a little erisian inspiration - check the ascii speeches
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
16:19 / 06.01.03
The New Testament was written by students of St Paul - they basically wrote what he told them to write.

Which parts of the New Testament are you refering to here?

Its interesting that if you read the Gospels there are some stark contradictions between Matthew and Mark (or it could be Matthew and Luke). They write almost opposite stories.

I have been reading the gospels since I have been able to read, and it has never been my experience that they tell "almost opposite" stories. I would like you to elaborate on this, please. Keep in mind that Matthew, Mark, and Luke are often referred to as the synoptic gospels (synoptic="one view" or "one sight"), as most scholars believe that they come from the same source, a theoretical earlier gospel that everyone calls "Q". Granted, the books do differ in some areas. For instance, there are different accounts as to what Christ said on the cross. It's a bit harsh to call these "stark contradictions", though.

"Jesus the Magician". I'm not sure I like that. Sometimes I'm not even comfortable calling him "Christ", opting instead for "Jesus of Nazareth". So we're trying to free Jesus the Magician from his association with the activities and beliefs of right wing Xtians like Dubya, and to associate him with the activites and beliefs of...who, us? Hmmm. Well, maybe I'm being too harsh. Let's look at "removing the man's teachings from the darkness of familiarity", which apparently sums up the basic idea of the thread.

what we're considering here is ways of putting another spin on that figure besides his use by what RAW called the 'right to hate who our grandparents hated' lobby.

"Another spin". I think he is viewed by most christians even today as a supreme exemplar of compassion and love, be it little "L" love or Love. I think a problem is that for most Xtians, Christ is too much a savior than an exemplar of love. They will worship him before they will really love him. And there's little we can do about that, or rather there's little we should do about that. Some people need a "Christ the Redeemer", whose blood cleans all our sins and lets us go to heaven, like lame people need a crutch. We have no right to take this away from them and say "tough it out, sissy".

I'm all for helping people understand Christ and his works a little better, and I think that His character and message come through very well in the gospels. People would see this if they would just fucking read them (this goes for christians and non-christians alike. Most are only reading what someone once told them was in the books). But I think trying to disassociate him with Dubya or any institution is not only futile but ultimately irrelevant anyway. All sorts of atrocities have been committed in His name ever since He came into the picture. You guys think we're going to be the ones to put a stop to it? And besides, no one with any clue as to what Jesus of Nazareth was about truly thinks of Bush as a good Christian. I'm pretty sure he doesn't think of himself as a good Christian, and if he does, then he is a terribly confused man who needs our help.

If you want to disassociate Christ with Dubya, teach people about Him and His message. Live a Christ-like life. Live in love. And remember kids, Christ still loves Dubya anyway. And so do I, for that matter. Which isn't to say that Dubya is a good president or that he doesn't make me so angry I want to kick his teeth in...
 
 
LVX23
18:45 / 06.01.03
Cubby wrote:
"Why not divorce the man from the god?"

I think this is the best starting point. This removes the Religion from the philosophy, which is really where the meat is. The xstian meme that I'd like to see propogate would be the philosophy of Jesus - basically a western Buddhism which brings divinity into Life, into Nature, instead of promising divinity after death (as does the current dominant paradigm of xtianity). This view puts Jesus near the level of Buddha - he's an illuminated individual, one who has recognized the divinity inherent in all beings and all things: "The kingdom of Heaven is on earth".

The fallacy of xtianity (and the root of much suffering) is in the belief that Jesus is literally the Son of God. This belief deifies Jesus and places him above all of humanity - an ideal that is entirely unattainable by us mortals. What many xstians worship is the myth of Jesus - the deity, the God - at the expense of Jesus' teachings. Dubya is a prime example of a xtian who gives great lip service to the xtian cause, but seems to have little grasp of what Jesus was really saying.

Kobol wrote:
"Our lives become more important to ourselves only when we take the responsibility to make ourselves and the world better. Only to ourselves."

This is touching on the foundations of Tibetan Buddhism - compassion for it's own sake, not for personal gratification or recognition. Compassion solely for the benefit of humanity, a cleansing of the Karmic Wheel, as it were. This is the compassion that characterized the later years of Jesus' life and this is the core of his teachings - that we are all the sons and daughters of God, we need but awaken to this fact (Every man and woman is a star, yeah?).

And Velvet wrote:
"But with the forthcoming LOTR/psychedelic/pacifist/pastoral vibe coming in..."

I really hope so...there's so much angst and morbidity, esp in American culture. The denial/desire of Sex and the fear/worship of Death trip has taken hold strongly here. The Archons, man. The 90's had a good spirit - lot's of ecology, psychedelicism, etc... but much of this has faded with the millenium. Maybe it's the End Times, maybe it's just a peak in the Aeon of Horus (take a look around and note just how much war is on the planet), or maybe everything is quickening and concretising towards the Eschaton at 2012. Very strange times, indeed. Powerful, positive memes are very, very necessary.
 
 
grant
18:54 / 06.01.03
I like what Johnny O said.


Also, if you use "Yeshuan," you're going to get yourself confused with Jews for Jesus, which is something you *definitely* don't want to do.
"Nasorean" might get you closer to where you want to go - according to The Hiram Key, that's the name of the Essene sect Jesus belonged to, used the fish as an emblem, and has a nice Nazarene/Nasorean overlap.
I'm pretty sure there aren't any Nasoreans around to contest the claim. Well, not too many, anyway.
 
  

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