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Petty bitching, snippy infighting, and pointless condescencion...

  
  

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A
01:39 / 27.12.02
...true, but bitchiness and pointless smackdowns aren't part of the rules here at Barbelith, which is a large part of what makes the place what it is. It makes my eyes bleed to look at just about any other message-board-type-place on the entire Information Superhighway, because they all seem to be overrun by grumpy little troglodites with no impulse control. It's a safe bet that a post saying something as innocuous as "I think the Ramones' fourth album is their best" will be followed by dozens of poorly worded posts saying something like "Fuk U pozer. U R a total faggot. U don't know fuken shit."

Of course, weak arguments deserve to be systematically taken apart piece by piece, but the respones don't need "Yeah, nice one, you fuckin' pansy" tacked on to the front, now, do they?
 
 
Andrew C*** passing himself of as Haus
06:35 / 27.12.02
Oh goody...
 
 
Andrew C*** passing himself of as Haus
07:07 / 27.12.02
And hello Ierne, by the way
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:36 / 27.12.02
Personally, I find bringing up past arguments distasteful. Either win 'em in the first place, or have the balls to restart 'em PROPERLY. Or (my personal favourite) back away sensibly.

All else is pointless bitching.
 
 
Papess
13:11 / 27.12.02
Am I reading this thread correctly?

This thread seems to be about politeness and arguing responsibly (yes, I said responsibly!) Now, some of you have responded to this question by pointing out that sometimes it is "incentive to learn" when unsupported ideas are questioned and arguments are picked apart. True enough, but some people have held their beliefs for a long time and tearing them down may be damaging. We need to have more care when dealing with each other.

Barbelith is a place to learn, but learning isn't done by insults and humiliation. What kind of sick minds would I be dealing with, if that was the belief here? Sure a little razz is okay, but not if you do not know who it is you are taking the fucking piss out of and for all anyone knows, maybe they will be not only misinformed, but mass murderers or wife-beating alcoholics. When you reach into someone's head via Barbelith, don't just go in with bombs, try to plant something there of compassion by explaining your POV with care and responsibility. It is a priviledge to be let into anyone's mind here, let's treat that with respect.

Truth is, we do not know whom one another are, or what their mindframe is, if they lost their job today or just had the piss beaten outta them by their mother, just lost their life savings, or found out they have cancer. Then some well-educated bastard, or ignorant twit comes along and tries to rip them a new asshole here.....on a fucking board?....in cyber-space?....and arguing about crap everyone takes so fucking seriously, really. Well isn't that enough to knock about some peoples' delicately balanced marbles?

Now, the ignorant twit may not have the social graces to express themselves properly and may need that to be pointed out to them, but I certainly expect more from those that are well-educated to be an example of conscientious posting, especially if it is claimed that this is a place of learning. That means to me, that those who can teach, do so in a compassionate (note: I didn't say wussy), not a humiliating way.

Point is, you do not know what or who you might trigger by smart-assed responses, no matter how text-book correct your bloody argument is. Can there be some loving responsibility here at Barbelith? It is important how you say things. THAT is the problem. Words effect people whether we like it or not and I would hate to think of what would happen if this "tradition" of "slagging barbeloids into an education" could do if not kept in check!. (This is one reason why this argument persists.) Even if that simply meant triggering depression in someone with suicidal tendancies, it is not worth your brief glory. Post with care.

If you consider yourself knowledgable enough and articulate enough, to take the piss out of other 'lither's ideas and opinions, you should also have some social grace to do it with class or not at all. Mere cleverness and a prickly nature for the sake of entertainment or bloodlust is not a hallmark of intelligence or civility.
 
 
Ganesh
13:42 / 27.12.02
Well, my "suicidal tendancies" are triggered by the word "razz": you might've thought of that before you carelessly included it in your post, Ms Tricks. I'll never get the blood out now...
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
13:53 / 27.12.02
Nicely put, May. Although I'm sure somebody is currently composing some witty retort that'll put you back in your place.
 
 
Ganesh
14:27 / 27.12.02
Well-predicted!
 
 
Papess
14:33 / 27.12.02
Ganesh, I am going to assume that someone with your intelligence just posted that to be humourous.

We are not talking about arbitrary, random selection of words, we are talking about deliberately designed post, created to glorify the poster and belittle another by being rude and insulting by wrapping neatly in sophistry and one-upmanship not to mention that blatant in-your-face style of insult used by twits.
 
 
Ganesh
14:43 / 27.12.02
Illustrates my point, though, Ms Tricks: intent and outcome aren't necessarily closely related when it comes to "petty bitching, snippy infighting, pointless condecension" and, indeed, "trolling". This is problematic in that defining such-and-such post in these terms inevitably involves a degree of subjective judgment as to the poster's perceived intention; one man's "one-upmanship" is another man's 'valid argument'. And, as I rather clumsily attempted to show, it's faintly ridiculous to suggest that individuals self-censor on the grounds that someone, somewhere might become "suicidal" by reading a critical post...
 
 
Papess
14:47 / 27.12.02
I can certainly see your point Ganesh, but alot of what I am refering to is common sense and simple courtesy. Surprisingly, there is a lack of it, even among the best of us here.
 
 
Ganesh
14:48 / 27.12.02
It was ever thus...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
15:23 / 27.12.02
I was originally going to be snide, because I thought this was all about Ellis' remark in that 'Best comics of the year' thread in Comics, but then i thought about Haus and LLBimG. There are degrees and degrees. I think there's more thoughtless bitching that goes on, I don't think Ellis intended his response to ADD to be seen as as bad as ADD seemed to take it. On the other hand, Haus can give masterclasses in it, especially in the technique of "I'm wearing my responsible adult trousers so I'm going to move things on but you still smell of wee!..."

Is it January or February when we all insist that we hate one another and then make up?
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
16:07 / 27.12.02
I don't hate anyone here. Which is what makes it all the more frustrating when I see people being blatantly rude and disrespectful to one another. I know that most people here are good-hearted and intelligent, so it's disappointing to see them behave otherwise.
 
 
gingerbop
16:36 / 27.12.02
Im a nice person
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
17:16 / 27.12.02
Is it January or February when we all insist that we hate one another and then make up?

January.

It's not a leap year.

Duh.
 
 
Papess
17:28 / 27.12.02
Okay, maybe using suicide as an example was a bit over the top, but, to use Ganesh's phrasing - it does illustrate my point, that we do not know whom we are dealing with.

Sometimes, giving someone the virtual tongue-lashing, wilst being guided by petty or egotistical concerns can come off as such, simple as that and it may not do anyone any good to be pushed in that manner.

This is not only a place of education, but a place of refuge, IMHO. I come here to be with those who just know. They are brilliant and distinctive, and I'll be damned if I can put my finger on it to tell you why...

...or, why this bothers me.

Look, I am going to get all sappy and poetic on ya now (seeing as I just smoked one) and I just hate sappy public displays. See, SEE! DAMN YOU! Now my belly is just writhing with tickles!




I love you, you hateful bastards, all of you!




What are we going to do now, kiss each other's hands?
 
 
The Falcon
01:50 / 28.12.02
If you're talking about the macho DOOD!/SUX!/"that's gay!"/"those pansies just need to beaten up!" element, I think that it would be a great folly for any of us to tolerate that sort of attitude on Barbelith, because it would only encourage it.

You really need to get a grip, Flux.

I've tried to engage in debate on all of the aforementioned occasions. I'm actually furious now - look at the trenchcoats, Moby and Alias #17 threads. Anyone who actually cares. Go on. All you've done is shit-fling, and accuse - you've addressed nothing. No. Thing.

Find one incidence of yr. implied homophobia. One. Please. Bring me to account. But you can't - what you're doing here is actually slander. That's intolerable.

As for the DOOD/SUX stuff - near as I can recall, it's only you who writes that. I'd call that condescension. Oh no, I've started doing it. Why do you think that is?

By 'macho', I'd assume you mean overly masculine. Believe me, the attitude I display in my posts is nothing compared to what I see in the 'real world', every day. There's nothing innately wrong with a masculine (not 'masculinist', you'll note) perspective, is there?

I've tried reconciliation, giving you credit where it's due, actual discussion, but no, you come back with this weak, incorrect ascriptions. Or are you just self-parodying with this latest drivel? I really hope so, sometimes it's hard to tell.

Deric - I'm sorry that this is being done again, but at least we're in Conversation, here. I'm all for conflict -> synthesis, really I am, but some people won't let the former go.
 
 
The Falcon
01:53 / 28.12.02
I'd also like to apologise to everyone else who's ever had to read an argument between myself and Flux. This one included.

Unless you enjoyed it. Which you may have.
 
 
Ganesh
02:14 / 28.12.02
I did. It was funny.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
02:53 / 28.12.02
Duncan, you and Toksik were the ones throwing around the word "gay" in a very, very questionable way. You're also the guy who was going on about how Moby deserved to be attacked, cos he SUX, DOOD! That graverobbing, effete wanker pansy!

At any rate, I sincerely hope that I have not driven you to the brink of suicide by refusing to let you get away with saying really dim things without at least being bitched out. I don't think you're a bad guy, just a person who has made a very poor impression on me by being a fairly good example of the type of newer member who seems to think that everyone else here should go along with their Maxim attitude and that anyone who voices disapproval with them is a "PC fascist!" I think Bio K9 is right about this - perhaps some people should learn to adjust to the culture of Barbelith, rather than expecting everyone here to adjust to THEM.

Show some respect and sensitivity, and I assure you, you'll be treated the same way.
 
 
The Falcon
03:43 / 28.12.02
That's a little better. You've retained the patronising element, unfortunately, but this is at least (fairly) reasonable...

Toksik rationalised his use of 'gay' quite cogently, I think. It's all questionable dependent upon how reactionary you're willing to be - 'gay' is not necessarily a criticism, you've imputed that (no surprise, there, then.) The drug Ecstasy could be described as gay in either etymological sense, including the one that predates the current. I love it.

Never called Moby 'gay' or a 'pansy', either. Look again. Effete is not a synonym. Is 'condescending' or 'wanker'? I think I justified my dislike of the man and music well enough, but you've chosen to sling the SUXXX! stuff about, again... Getting quite dull. And having read your 'thoughts' on Igor Kordey, I hardly think you're in any position to criticise.

I'd also like to respectfully suggest that we'll be seeing 'gay' as a pejorative quite a lot more in the future, so it would be preferential if the two meanings (sexual practice, criticism) become divorced in everyone's head sooner rather than later. Otherwise you're going to spend a large amont of time during the rest of your life being upset.

We can do this in the Headshop, if it hasn't been done before, or if anyone can be bothered.

And, while you're a moderator (though fortunately not in Comics,) it seems to be only yourself and Bio who have any problem with me. That's 2 members out of 1,500 (I refuse to count Badbh Catha, who I'm certain is a double suit.) I am simply 'being myself', (Maxim attitude included.....) And I'm not the one asking you, or anyone else to change what they've said, am I?

PC-observant is a quite different term than 'PC-fascist', too. Perhaps I should have qualified it with 'overly'.

If you can properly dissect anything I've said, or offer counterpoints, which I've not seen as yet, instead of simply saying what I've said is 'dim' or attributing silly words to me, then we'll be close to having an actual, proper discussion. None of the above ought to rely on any a priori Barbelith-sense, which only you and Bio possess.

I look forward to such an event.
 
 
The Falcon
03:46 / 28.12.02
I'd also like to point out that, with one exception, none of my obnoxious posts here have been aggressive. Rather they have all been responsive.

How macho.
 
 
The Falcon
04:13 / 28.12.02
I must apologise Flux. Having checked, I see you're something of an apologist for Kordey. Anyhoo...

Some nice stuff. Much better when you're not getting overwrought.
 
 
bio k9
06:10 / 28.12.02
Do me a favor and pretend my name tastes like shit. And then keep it out of your mouth.

I'm done posting in your threads and I'm no longer going to respond to your comments in threads started by others. Go ahead and have the last word. Hell, have the next four posts. I no longer give a fuck.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
06:17 / 28.12.02
No problem, Duncan. No problem at all. This is how I thought we resolved arguments here. And, yes, this is the more proper place to do it.

And Flux: "Show some respect and sensitivity, and I assure you, you'll be treated the same way."

This is true. True for all...
 
 
A
06:30 / 28.12.02
!Aye caramba! Is this thread a self-fulfilling prophecy, or what?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
09:27 / 28.12.02
true. true.

Man, that bio geezer's a laff inty?

'Bah - I'm not going to post on your threads!'

ha ha ha ha ha
 
 
sleazenation
11:08 / 28.12.02
Leaving aside the self-defeating bitch-fights about bitch fights, I found comics greatest galaxy thread to be akin to spamming the board with self promotion. Less 'what did you think of this year's comics' and more of a 'look at my site about what comics i thought were good this year' (a new spin on the old list style thread which i must admit i find a litttle tedious and pointless, but that's just me)

By contrast, Jess Nevins the guy that wrote that book about The Invisibles have done similar things with their annotations sites, but in both cases these people offered creative and fact based work which may have been of interest (and in many cases was of interest) to peple posting on Barbelith. In the case of The comicbook galaxy greatest comics of 2002 thread We had more of a link to an off site opinion piece.
I think opinion is one thing Barbelith is not short of.

I am not entirely happy with the idea of people joining barbelith purely to promote their own opinion based writing, but on this occasion I let it stand.

What do others think about it?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
11:25 / 28.12.02
If it happens in Music it gets deleted or sent here, now that locking threads is no longer an option. Nobody goes around pimping their blogs or eBay auctions, and there'd be a fair bit of opposition if they did.

Very funny is the "I've been hanging around here for a number of months now, wanting to join in but thinking it'd be better to gauge the atmosphere and get a feel for the place before I started posting" talk. You've been lurking for a while, reading threads to understand the board better and figured it'd be a wise idea to make your very first post one that does nothing other than pimp your own site? You've really got a handle on what the board's about...

I'd quite like to be proved wrong one day by someone doing this then going on to contribute to other threads, rather than disappearing completely, but it's yet to happen.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
11:47 / 28.12.02
Thanks for filling the "Petty bitching, snippy infighting, and pointless condescension..." shaped hole that not going home to the family for Christmas had left.

You're probably right, Deric, but I know only a handful of barbelites irl, whom I think of as friends, so the squabbling of fictional conceits doesn't trouble me as much as it might. If someone is being a wanker online, I assume that they're a wanker irl and thus generating so much bad karma they'll be reincarnated as a weedy, pansy [sic] pop star and be intimidated by big butch, macho thugs in their turn.

I haven't often lost the heid with anyone here and have always felt afterwards that only I looked like a dick. Can be therapeutic to vent too on occasion, in intemperate manner, when it's only sound and fury on a message board and signifying not very much.

The thing that pisses me off is when newbies get blasted before they've even strapped on their sidearms but there has been less of that lately, I have felt.
 
 
bitchiekittie
13:03 / 28.12.02
Im nice, too. I looooove me. mmm, mmmm, mmmm, kittie hugs are best
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:27 / 28.12.02
I'm with Randy on this - I just don't buy the whole "I'm been lurking for a while, but I shall make my posting debut with shameless spam" excuse. If they've been lurking, it's probably been a lot more like casing the place and figuring out if the demographic of the board was the right target audience for their pimping.

I think it is fine for people to mention their blog/site/band/comic/whatever, but only under the right circumstances. I think it's better for that sort of thing to come from folks who've been around Barbelith for a while, who've interacted with us all for a while and have developed some degree of trust. I think we've all got a good reason to distrust total strangers who apparently sign up so that they can pimp their stuff without even using proper html.

That comics galaxy thread didn't have to seem so spammy - if the poster had made the thread more inclusive by asking for people's ideas and lists and then mentioning some of his own picks, and THEN linking to that site, I doubt many people would have had a problem with it.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
15:29 / 28.12.02
this is all totally absurd.

What the Alan guy has gone and Doane was totally reasonable and beyond criticism really. He was just posting a fuckin link!

There should be no etiquette regarding how to go about doing something like this.

If you can be arsed, contribute to the discussion on the thread. If you can't be arsed, don't.

Look, I thought it came across a bit pompous meself, but then most of us round here are a bit up ourselves anyway.

That said, I love reading all the 'solutions' to Barbelife you guys propose.

Stuck?

Using the 'barbelith as pub' analogy, think of Alan Doane as the bloke who slides up to yer table and trys to sell you beef on the bone from a black binbag.

Merry mid Christmas.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:04 / 28.12.02
May Tricks, these people are not worth your love.
 
  

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