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Modern with it's Post out:

 
 
YNH
16:16 / 07.09.01
There's some discomfort 'round these parts, and in general, with the post that now and then prefaces modern.

I know some of y'all are better versed in Giddens than I, so ah'm hopin' for some insight on why it's important to jetison the post. Does it provide a more useful way of looking at society/commercialism? Is it a gimmick that grabs attention in the academy, but isn't terribly relevant one way or the other?

It seems as though he articulates a common sociological position on modern versus postmodern (albeit very well) in keeping with the notion that institutions still have power even though individuals may effect change: a position that always seems informed by the substitution of a line of poetry for a body of theory.

The, ahem, literary position is very different, and probably less invested: a term used to package certain periods and styles of writing including techniques and subject matter.

At the extreme end it crosses into economics and communication (and pop theory).

Jameson caled it Late Capitalism and held the post. Giddens calls it late modernity and eschews it.

Why? Any thoughts?
 
 
Dee Vapr
18:38 / 07.09.01
I must admit my knowledge of pomo is pretty much restricted to the literary sphere of things.

Brian Mchale had a handy construction, that I like: he defines pomo as a literature of "ontology" (playing with worlds) as opposed to modernism's literature of epistemology (there is one world, but I'm gonna play with how we see it / know it).

That pretty much nailed it for me, but there are other definitions, obviously.
 
 
YNH
01:52 / 08.09.01
Thanks for the input, Dee... but... I guess I was trying to say I have the lit part pretty much down. I'm shakey on Giddens.
 
 
Cat Chant
01:52 / 08.09.01
Having just been invited to "post" a reply - why not think about the 'post' of modernity in terms of instability of location/address as in the lovely Derrida's The Post Card, where 'post' means both 'station' (as in a soldier's 'abandoning his post') and 'deliver'?

I don't know anything about Giddens, or indeed the difference between postmodernity and modernity, which is rather a shame given I'm teaching a course called 'postmodern cultures' next semester, so actually any responses on this would be helpful to me too...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
21:01 / 10.09.01
I think the first problem from the point of view of social science is that it's a rather vague term. 'Postmodern' and 'postmodernism' both had strong and perfectly clear meanings in architecture (and possibly art). The words were adopted in lit crit, where I think they're a little more fuzzy.

'Postmodernity' is a bit more problematic. Giddens doesn't like it because quote:The long-standing influence of social evolutionism is one of the reasons why the discontinuist character of modernity has not often been fully appreciated... [Theories] see human history as having an overall direction... Displacing the evolutionary narrative...refocuses part of the debate about the so-called post-modern. History does not have the 'totalised' form attributed to it by evolutionary conceptions...
(Consequences of Modernity)


I'd also suggest that if you take modernity as a consequence of Industrialism and the Enlightenment project, we're living it right now. Much of the world doesn't yet meet the criteria for modernity, and the confusion this creates has been used as one of the reasons for using the term 'posmodernity'. But actually, it's just the thing itself.

I once contended, though, that 'postmodernity' is a construction of life characterised by endemic and all-penetrating existential doubt. This would be a purely social postmodernity which derives from the recognition that even the satires and games of modernism and modernity posit a deeper reality which we can no longer believe in. The consequences of this then permeate everything. I still think the idea is worth considering, and I'm sure I'm neither the first nor the only one who put it like that.

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Nick ]
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
21:55 / 10.09.01
quote:Is postmodernity a supplement to modernism rather than its replacement? And that's rather the point. 'Postmodernism' is or might be a supplement to modernism, a thing coming after the modernist movement, running concurrently. 'Postmodernity' in this sense would mean only the quality of being of that movement. 'Postmodernity', the societal form, is far more questionable.
 
 
deletia
10:36 / 11.09.01
Although the term "supplement" was in itself a bit of a dangling fish re: Derrida on Rousseau and writing...
 
 
Ethan Hawke
10:43 / 11.09.01
Isn't postmodernism (in literature) just the most decadent tendencies of modernism foregrounded, as it were? Rather than using McHales' formulation of modernism as concerned with epistemological issues and post-modernism as concerned with ontological issues, maybe post-modern works are those which confuse epistemological questions with ontological ones.

McHale uses Faulkner's "Absalom, Absalom" as a key text between modernism and post-modernism, in that while the novel is mainly concerned with epistemological issues (briefly, Quentin Compson and his roommate Shreve try to piece together the story of Thomas Sutpen and brood from accounts given to Quentin by his father and others) of what is knowable or not, the truth constructed by Quentin acquires a real existence, a being not dependent on what actually happened. This type of narrative is the cornerstone of post-modernity, from Borges to Calvino to Pynchon to Eco to Grant Morrison. A leap from exploring what things are knowable to creating things through knowing about them.

Does this make any sense? I mean, I could go from there and try and talk about why post-modernism as practiced by the above writers is essentially gnostic in character but I'll stop now.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
04:03 / 16.09.01
quote:Originally posted by todd:
I mean, I could go from there and try and talk about why post-modernism as practiced by the above writers is essentially gnostic in character but I'll stop now.


oh come on -- we cant get enough gnosticism around here. shoot!
 
 
agapanthus
10:50 / 16.09.01
Todd,
What do you mean by the term 'gnostic' in the context of the break in literature, sometimes called 'post-modernism'?

gnosis - intuitive knowledge of various spiritual truths, esp. that said to have been possessed by ancient Gnostics . . .

Are you equating,
quote:the most decadent tendencies of modernism foregrounded, with
quote: A leap from exploring what things are knowable to creating things through knowing about them.
in your definition of PMism? Why 'decadent'? Are you saying that PM Lit is characterised by the process of (imaginatively) knowing 'things' into existence.Isn't that what fiction has always been? imagining new-worlds, people, situations into existence ?

I never really understood how artistic modernity (Picasso, Faulkner, Eliott, Pound, Joyce, Woolf) could be conflated with philosophical/ political modernity, to give a generalized term - post-modernity. The question mark put over the agency/ rationality of 'the subject' might be one way through which PMsm can have some valency as a blanket term.

Don't know whether this quite belongs on this thread, but there is below a quite lengthy discussion on PMsm and periodization that seems to focus more on the philosophical/political dimensions than artistic ones (closer to Giddens than Derrida?) . . . Cornelius Castoriadis on Postmodernism, whose periodization hinges on the project of social/individual autonomy (don't know how much I really understand below, but makes a fair amount of sense,and I do like a writer with a combative/ decisive tone: it makes for good dialogue.)
"The retreat from Autonomy: Postmodernism as Generalized Conformism."

quote:"The label postmodernismcertainly does not and cannot define or characterise the present period. But it very adequately expresses it. It manifests the pathetic inability of the epoch to conceive of itself as something positive - or as something ... [simply/ briefly] - leading to its self-definition as simply" post-something,"that is, through a reference to that which was but is not anymore, and to its attempt at a self-glorification by means of the bizarre contention that its meaning is no-meaning and its style the lack of any style."

quote: . . . without neglecting the fantastically rich and polyphonic complexity of the historical universe unfolding in Western Europe from the twelth century onwards, the most appropriate way to grasp its specificity is to relate it to the signification and the project of (social and individual) autonomy. The emergence of this project marks the break with the "true" Middle Ages. In this perspective, one may distinguish three periods: the emergence (constitution) of the West; the critical ("modern") epoch; and the retreat into conformism.

Castoriadis summarising Johann Arnason's summary of 3 tenets of'postmodernism':
quote:1. The rejection of an overall vision of history as progress or liberation. In itself, this rejection is correct. It is not new, but it serves, in the hands of the postmodernists, to eliminate the question: Are, therefore, all historical periods and all social-historical regimes equivalent? This, in turn, leads to political agnosticism, or to the funny acrobatics performed by the post-modernists or their bretheren when they feel obliged to defend freedom, democracy, human rights, and so on.

2. The rejection of the idea of a uniform and universal reason. Here again, in itself the rejection is right; it is by far not new; and it serves to cover up the question that opened up the Greco-Western creation of Logos and Reason: What are we to think? Are all ways of thinking equivalent or indifferent?

3. The rejection of the strict differentiation of cultural spheres (philosophy and art, say)on the basis of a single underlying priciple of rationality or functionality. This is at best muddled, and it cuts through many important questions. To name but one: the differentiation of cultural spheres (or lack of it)is, each time, a social-historical creation, part and parcel of the whole institution of life in the society considered. It cannot be approved or rejected in the abstract. Nor has the process of differentiation of the cultural spheres in, say,the Greco-Western stretch of human history expressed the implications of a single underlying principle of rationality, whatever that may mean. This would be, strictly speaking, the Hegelian construction. The unity of the differentiated cultural spheres, in ancient Athens as well as in Western Europe, is not to be found in any underlying principle of rationality or functionality but in the fact that all spheres embody, in their own way and in the very guise of their differentitation, the same core of imaginary significaitons of the given society."

"Waht we have here is a collection of half-truths perverted into strategems of evasion. The value of postmodernity as "theory" is that it mirrors the prevailing trends. Its misery is that it simply rationalizes them through a high-brow apologetics of conformity and banality. Complacently mixed up with loose but fashionable talk about "pluralism" and "respest for the difference of the other" it ends up glorifying ecclecticism, covering up sterility, and providing a generalised view of the 'anything goes' principle, so fittingly celebrated in another field by [Paul] Feyerabend. To be sure, conformity, sterility, banality, and 'anything goes' are the characteristic traits of the period. Postmodernism, the ideology adorning them with a 'solemn complement of justification,' is the latest case of intellectuals abandoning their critical function and enthusiastically adhering to that which is there just because it is there. Postmodernism, both as an effective historical trend, and as a theory, truly is the negation of modernism."


quote: It is . . .not sufficient to say that 'modernity is an unfinished project' (Habermas). Insofar as modernity embodied the capitalist imaginary signification of the unlimited expansion of (pseudo-)rational(pseudo-)mastery, it is more alive than ever, and it is engaged in a frantic course pregnant with the severest dangers for humankind. But insofar as the development of capitalism has been decisively conditioned by the simultaneous deployment of the project of social and individual autonomy, modernity is finished. Capitalism developing while forced to face a continuous struggle against the status quo, on the floor of the factory as well as in the sphere of ideas or of art, and capitalism expanding without any effective internal opposition are two different social-historical animals. The project of autonomy itself is not finished. But its trajectory during the last two centuries has proved the radical inadequacy, to say the least, of the progams in which it has been embodied - be it the liberal republic or Marxist-Leninist 'socialism'. That the demonstration of this inadequacy in actual historical fact is one of the roots of present political apathy and privatization hardly needs stressing. For the resurgence of the project of autonomy, new political objectives and new human attitudes are required. For the time being, however, there are but few signs of such changes. Meanwhile, it would be absurd to try to decide whether we are living through a long parenthesis or we are witnessing the beginning of the end of Western history as a history essentially linked with the project of autonomy and codetermined by it.
 
 
Medea Zero
10:51 / 16.09.01
isn't the power of the post- in signifying a kind of transience, a kind of mode of becoming and a new kind of enunciative modality for all kinds of different forms, for - dare I say it - hybridity, deterritorialisation and all kinds of nomadic significations?

[quote]Jameson caled it Late Capitalism and held the post. Giddens calls it late modernity and eschews it.

Why? Any thoughts? [\quote]

I think that giddens really lost it for me when he succumbed to the third way and did all kinds of other bad things. he is intrigued by production, weberian things, pretty much reflects much of the sociological canon. his stuff on late modernity is quite useful but a little bland. too much to condense here, but most of the analysis has been subsumed into so much else.

jameson is good. definitely. very marxian. which can be boring or interesting, depending on how burnt out you are with all that stuff.

the most recent things I've read lately about the post in post-modern, and departures from both giddens' and jameson's spatio-temporalities, has been jean-luc nancy - I've read the sense of the world and a few other related articles - hardt and negri's empire, and the recentContingency, Hegemony, Universality: Contemporary Dialogues on the Leftby butler, zizek, laclau et.al. looks like it could be good to. its also good to read some of the postcolonial critiques of the postmodern. appadurai is great, even some spivak...

if post- can be read as a floating signifier, then I think we can work that into a specific kind of critical praxis that refuses the kind of modernist closure we're all so trained in. choose your own adventure.
 
  
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