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Misogyny and sexism: Are women to blame?

 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:38 / 23.12.02
When confronted with the accusation that a statement or action is motivated by a distain for or hatred of women, a misogynist will often respond in one of two ways. Either he will hotly deny the accusation, or he will attempt to justify his distain for or hatred of women.

These justifications usually fall into one of two categories. Category One is the reflexive repetition of a She Done Me Wrong sob-story or two, similar to the "I was mugged once and some of the shopkeepers in Brixton are quite rude to me" justification of racist behaviour.

The second category is more sophisticated. Here's Dave Sim:

"Emotion, whatever the Female Void would have you believe, is not a more Exalted State than is Thought. In point of fact, I think Emotion is animalistic, serpent-brain stuff. Animals do not Think, but I am reasonably certain that they have Emotions. 'Eating this makes me Happy.' 'When my fur is all wet and I am cold, it makes me Sad." "Ooo! Puppies!' 'It makes me Excited to Chase the Ball!' Reason, as any husband can tell you, doesn't stand a chance in an argument with Emotion... this was the fundamental reason, I believe, that women were denied the vote for so long."

"Behind this...lies the Greater Void, the Omnivorous Engine which drives every... institutionalised waste of human time and energy, which drives, in point of fact, our entire degraded society. The wife and kids."

"In one of those Poor Us studies for which the Emotional Female Void is notorious, it was pointed out that after a divorce, the average male standard of living rises... the average female standard of living drops... I think the...explanation is that the excision of a five-to-six- foot leech from the surface of a human body is going to have more of its own blood in its own veins. Unless the leech finds another body, it is going to go hungry."

"In labouring to fill the insatiable Void Need for material possessions at home, his time and his energy and his spirit disappear into the Vaginal Bottom Line of the workplace."

"The Male Light and the Female Void: Seminal Energy and Omnivorous Parasite."

"If you look at her and see anything besides emptiness, fear and emotional hunger, you are looking at the parts of yourself which have been consumed to that point."


The Void vs. Light argument is interesting because it clains to be rational whilst resting upon any number of unsupported assumtions. It is also entirely negative-- the proponent never offers any solutions to the problems he sees. (Should women go out and commit suicide in good order, find a convenient dungeon to chain ourselvs up in, or would it be okay if we all just slip on a burkah and wait in the kitchen till we're needed?)

It's also an argument that's very unlikely to have its true flaws picked up, since the gender stereotypes upon which it rests have been internalised by so many feminists that to attack them as stereotypes is often treated as an attck on feminism itself.

Your thoughts?
 
 
gridley
13:03 / 23.12.02
All right, I don't have any grand theories that explain anything, but I do have a tale to relate.

In the past couple months, I have discovered that two of my smart, capable, employed women friends depend completely on their menfolk (husband in one case, boyfriend in another) for rent, food, and bills. Both of them spend the money they make purely on clothes and personal items. And I have to say I was pretty much astounded. Though I obviously knew they were fasionable, these are not some suburban women of some 1950s mold, born to be housewives and mothers. These are the kind of urban wild child dames that I like to drink and party and have great conversations with. I've tried to gently interview both sides of the equation on this. One woman was under the impression that it was her right (as a woman) to be fully supported. The other more or less said, that's the just the way things are, and it's never going to change. Both men mentioned that they were disappointed by the arrangement, and wished their partners would contribute.

Now, in the interest of context, I also know two couples were the the women supported the men almost entirely during grad school (although in one couple's case, they then reversed the situation, and he supported her, which I think is a lovely arrangement). And I've got to say that although my girlfriend and I split all the bills 50/50, we would not have just bought out little house if not for her sparkling credit rating and savings for downpayment. And if either of us is the splurging void, it's me with my many pop culture addictions. And I know it would never enter her mind to want to be supported. She's too fiercely independent.

Unfortunately, I still haven't worked out what to make of my recent discoveries. Is it wrong for me to lose respect for these female friends, when the situation is certainly collaborative between them and their men? Should I lose just as much respect for these male friends?

Strange. I just remembered that another friend of mine is totally supported by his boyfriend, but I've never lost respect for him in that regard because he's always been upfront and honest about wanting exactly that lifestyle.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:16 / 23.12.02
I'd lose respect for the woman who believes it's a man's place to provide. Oh...and the husband, too. I have to hear this shit all the time at work and, while it doesn't exactly upset me, it does annoy the shit out of me. God, gender as social construct should be taught to fucking six yr olds....
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:37 / 23.12.02
two of my smart, capable, employed women friends depend completely on their menfolk (husband in one case, boyfriend in another) for rent, food, and bills. Both of them spend the money they make purely on clothes and personal items.

I'm speechless. I'm acutley aware of the fact that my financial contribution to my household is woefully less than my partener's, but that's due to the disparity in our earning power rather than unwillingness on my part to pay my way. The idea of an intelligent woman in this day and age sitting back and letting her partener support her just because he's male is surreal and kind of disgusting to me.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:37 / 23.12.02
I'd lose respect for the woman who believes it's a man's place to provide.

Yeah, because a woman who "just" stays home and takes care of the kids... well she's not actually "providing" anything, is she?

Besides transportation, laundry, maid service, food service, education, minor medical care, and moral instruction—not to mention security and companionship...
 
 
Jack Fear
13:39 / 23.12.02
Oh, and is it just me, or does the unquestioned assumption that equation "money = support" strike anybody else as deeply, deeply fucked?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:48 / 23.12.02
If you bring raising the kids into the equation then the whole dynamic changes-- you're then looking at a woman who's providing an underrated but vital service. Same with the housekeeping and whatnot. However in the case outlined by gridley, no children are mentioned; nor are domestic duties.

Oh, and is it just me, or does the unquestioned assumption that equation "money = support" strike anybody else as deeply, deeply fucked?

Well, yes. I'd like to imagine that I make up for my lack of financial clout by providing support and help in other areas.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:16 / 23.12.02
I don't wan to disagree with Mordant here, but I think her last point isn't quite right. One doesn't "make up" for a lack of financial contribution if one doesn't earn as much.

To my mind, the point is that in an equal relationship each contributes according to their capacity. I really couldn't judge the situation described above since it may make perfect sense with respect to the undisclosed particulars. However, I have read surveys which indicate that both men and women feel comfortable if the man is the breadwinner and rather uncomfortable if the situation is reversed. I think this reaction is to be expected, in a way.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:18 / 23.12.02
Mm. But there's still an assumption that this is inherently female behavior. But I don't think it is: I think it's just the ability tom recognize a good deal when you get one. I'm as male as the next man, and if some high-powered monied woman (back in my single days) had been willing to pay my bills and buy me nice clothes in exchange for my lounging about being charming and devastatingly sexy, I don't know that I would've said no.

Having a career and a purpose in life is nice, but having somebody take care of you is nice too. Or, ideally, both: Yeats and Tchaikovsky, both dedicated to their art (and, in Tchaikovsky's case, gay), but both patronized (matronized?) by, and dependent on, wealthy women...
 
 
gridley
14:28 / 23.12.02
yes, taking care of kids obviously disqualifies someone as potentially being spoiled. there are no kids in these two situations.

as to the money=support issue, hmmmmm.... one of the women that I mentioned would be quite quick to mention that she is the emotional backbone of the couple, and that her husband would fall apart without her. Obviously, it's tough to speculate whether that's true, but it's probably a point worth considering. Idealy, I think, this would be the meat and potatoes of any relationship, attending to each other's mental, emotional and sexual needs (as best as one can). Perhaps financial support in times of crisis and transition in there too. Perhaps the difficulty is knowing when a time of crisis/transition is over....
 
 
Jack Fear
14:30 / 23.12.02
Yeah, but why would anybody work if they didn't absolutely have to?

Work is for chumps, man.
 
 
dj kali_ma
16:27 / 23.12.02
Misogynists defend their belief in the inferiority of women by never getting close enough to one emotionally to ever grok what women are all about. Also: the misogynistic mindset believes all women to be the same creature. (One woman, many faces.) It's the same sort of bullshit that racism and homophobia and ageism and all that is based upon.

I think, in essence, misogyny/misanthropy is an unevolved shit-throwing, public-wanking ape behaviour that might have been good back in the day when encountering someone Not Of The Tribe, but is nigh-useless to us now, but is still something we all do on occasion, like a bad habit.

Now that I've gotten that off my chest, I'd like to say that I think Dave Sim is an utter wanker and a talented artist. The combination of the two makes me want to hit things.

And, I agree with what Jack Fear said.

::aphonia::
 
 
penitentvandal
17:44 / 23.12.02
Speaking purely from my own, pseudo-Nietzschean perspective on the matter, I think anyone who allows themself to be totally kept by another human being, whether male or female, is actually denying their own humanity and reverting to the status of some kind of pet. I don't mind paying for drinks or meals or treats, but the kind of arrangement mentioned above sounds icky and disgusting, like slavery or some form of tacit prostitution. I honestly don't know how anyone in that arrangement could live with themselves...

That 'women = emotion', 'men = reason' bullshit Sim spouts is so lame it's not even funny. He sounds like a corrupted Hippy who's read too many books on Taoism. We would be talking here about 'emotional' women like Marie Curie versus 'rational' men like Mike Tyson, hmmm?

When, oh when, will people realise that all that masculine/feminine stuff is an archetypal binary opposition adopted purely for heuristic use-value, and not a reasonable basis on which to consider relationships with people of the opposite sex? How long, oh lord, how long?

*sigh*
 
 
Aertho
21:28 / 23.12.02
I don't know if I'm going to be of any help here> I'm young, unattached, and relatively sheltered due to upper middle class white small town upbringing, but I've caused a bit of a wave in thought at my Detroit art school with a classroom outburst at a flatbrained neo-feminist. She basically defended the Dave Sim idea in her own way, demanding the female monopoly of Emotional Capacity. I've always respected female intelligence more than male, so I felt a moment of complete disenfranchisement.

I replied with "men feel more emotion, women know more emotion" and though it wasn't any less sexist than her statement, it sparked a completely new conversation that rippled throughout the sophomore, junior and senior classes. My argument was based on the fact that men don't express emotions easily because we're overwhelmed by them. Women have it easier because they're socially conditioned to be able to recognize and discuss them in classifiable terminology. Now I got guys in all my classes talking about feelings and instincts and girls actually listening to them without rolling thier eyes.
 
 
some guy
11:37 / 24.12.02
When, oh when, will people realise that all that masculine/feminine stuff is an archetypal binary opposition adopted purely for heuristic use-value, and not a reasonable basis on which to consider relationships with people of the opposite sex? How long, oh lord, how long?

She basically defended the Dave Sim idea in her own way, demanding the female monopoly of Emotional Capacity.

I've tried to stay out of this discussion, because there often appears to be a "have your cake and eat it too" element to these conversations, and pointing that out tends to not be met with fondly. But it's interesting that if we scroll down a few threads to the Creativity/Productivity discussion, we'll see masculine/feminine attributes being bandied about by presumed feminists (an errant presumption?). Is Sim wrong because of the specifics of his argument, or because of the nature of it?

As for the topic abstract, I suspect it's pointless trying to "tackle [misogynists'] arguments," any more than we could reasonably expect to end someone's homophobia or racism through debate. These aren't attitudes based on reason.
 
 
Persephone
12:10 / 24.12.02
But it's interesting that if we scroll down a few threads to the Creativity/Productivity discussion, we'll see masculine/feminine attributes being bandied about by presumed feminists (an errant presumption?)

Oh my God, is that your interpretation of what I've said so far?? To put it as plainly as possible, Male Light and Female Void is most definitely not what I am talking about.

And yes, you may presume that I am a feminist.
 
 
some guy
12:25 / 24.12.02
To put it as plainly as possible, Male Light and Female Void is most definitely not what I am talking about.

You launched that thread with this:

And as it happens, I tend to associate ascendent, material, and economic with something that I refer to as "masculine" not because I hate men, but not that men are uninvolved in this.

So no, not light and void, but masculine/feminine attributes nonetheless. So the question Is Sim wrong because of the specifics of his argument, or because of the nature of it? still stands.
 
 
Persephone
12:37 / 24.12.02
But that's evaluating the entire system --most of which I haven't yet expressed-- based on a very short snippet from the beginning statement!
 
 
Persephone
12:38 / 24.12.02
Besides which I even think that you are oversimplifying the piece that you've got in your hands.
 
 
some guy
12:55 / 24.12.02
Persephone, I think it's important to be aware that I am not criticizing you or your thread, but rather raising the issue of whether masculine/feminine attributes are valid or invalid (as touched on by posters upthread). It seems to me that there is a double standard at work - that the masculine/feminine divide is spun as a false construction when used to support viewpoints we don't agree with (Sim) but spun as a positive, natural schism when it supports viewpoints that make us feel good (creativity vs. production or emotion vs. reason). So the question asked of Sim - is his argument wrong because of its specifics or its nature - seems very apt, especially when the creativity/productivity equation doesn't seem a million miles from light/void itself.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:19 / 24.12.02
Laurence. I think that is part of the reason that Mordant started the thread. I really don't know if any female versus male steroetypes have validity. They might have, according to evolutionary psychology, but I am always dubious. Anyhow, given the history of that way of thinking, I think it is worth questioning it's validity when it arises.

Interestingly that you say you've tried to keep out of the discussions on this as I've been thinking a lot about you in the debating non-debate thread.
 
 
Persephone
13:31 / 24.12.02
I don't care if you are criticizing me or my thread. What I care about is that you're still misrepresenting what was being said there. Apart from not being fully developed, the creativity/productivity equation in that thread is --or will be-- a million miles away from Sim's Light and Void.

I mean... obviously there are going to be people who are going to have a double standard for using masculine/feminine, and obviously that's stupid. But I'm trying to get at something deeper than that... and I haven't got there yet...
 
 
Aertho
14:44 / 24.12.02
What exactly do you want to get at? What's it like? I'm interested and I don't want this thread to stop because of frustration or loss of apropriate words. I guess I could benefit mostly from someone summing up what's been said thus far.

I think that masculine/feminine attributions exist in a way that electrical cords and sockets work -and human beings are sort of partially like them. I think there's a great mistake that happens when Males think they are Masculine when they happen to have masculine apparatus. Vice Versa obviously. It's deficient terminology... are we defending its use? Are we finding a more apropriate terminology? What's going on?
 
 
some guy
15:18 / 24.12.02
Well, I think we have four possibly conflicting streams here:

1) The (inflammatory) thread title; which doesn't seem to match

2) The topic abstract, which is very straightforward and could be made to tie in to

3) Mordant's first post, which questions the internalization of masculine/feminine attributes even by feminists; and

4) The possible existence of a double-standard in the use of masculine/feminine attributes, as evidenced by other threads on Barbelith.

I think the thread could do with a refocusing - perhaps Mordant should be given the first crack at laying out the ground rules?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:04 / 25.12.02
1) The inflammatory thread title was a delibarate attempt to get people's attention. Sorry. Hopefully there will be plenty of steak to go with that sizzle ere long.

2) I wanted a fairly short, flexible abstract so as to allow plenty of room to manoeuver. There are a lot of aspects to this subject, all of which I'd be interested to see discussed, but I must confess to having a bee in my bonnet about 3) and 4).

It's hard to defend feminism as a reasonable position when people can (with some justification) point to the have-your-cake-and-eat-it business. It's as if the arguments one might for gender equality when the discussion comes up are being undermined by both sides, with the Sim-ians claiming that female=emotional=inferior, and the opposing side claiming that female=emotional=superior. This isn't a criticsm of anyone on the 'Lith, I hasten to add-- it's a pretty general thing. However, there have been times where I've avoided participating in feminism-related topics because my personal position (that male and female are wholly or largely social constructs and that neither has a monopoly on reason or emotion, which are genderless) seems to be at odds with the most basic assumptions of many people here.

The other aspect of this topic that I wanted to address is that highlighted by the title. I'm increasingly coming across people who are prepared to stand up and say that yes, sexism is a real and prevelant problem, that I'm not imagining it, that they are indeed misogynistic as hell and here's why, now what are you going to do about it? It's true to say that in most cases this kind of person will never be convinced that they might be mistaken, no matter how good the argument. However, it's well worth going over the arguments that one might use as a way to order and consolidate one's thoughts and opinions.
 
 
The Monkey
22:21 / 25.12.02
David Sim is giving me heartburn. Ick...I *hate* arguments like that.
The problem here is that Sim and his ilk are playing at the thin line between "common knowledge" and "fact." A lot of people are familiar with the archetypal characteristics of "male" and "female"...to name just a few standards:

male = creative, open/honest, rational, structural, independent
female = productive, closed/secretive, emotional, chaotic, interdependent

and it's easy to equate the density with which they run into these ideas in both their day-to-day and literary/academic life with factuality. For someone trying to make a point, such as the "weakness" of women (or historically, the "parasitism" of Jews) playing upon this sense of natural truth is very useful, not only conveying a sense of rhetoric but also touching upon the affective judgements (fear, uncertainty, dislike, confusion) that are invariably a part of such claims.

The fastest, and likely most common, counterargument is the individual case: that we all know someone exceptional to the claim. The downside is that a reasonably intelligent opponent can point out that an exception *is* an exception, and by way of some snazzy concept such as the Bell Curve or the Second Law of Thermodynamics argue that some exceptions to be expected. But since neither side has all of the data (literally) the product is really a stalemate...and if your opponent is truly entrenched in their bias, they'll likely mark up a tie as a win for the home team.

A far riskier position is to question their motiviations and experiences to understand (and perhaps resolve, or at least address) *why* they have imported this model of gender and behavior. Because there's always a really personal reason at the bottom. The entire intellectual model of male or female archetypes is generally a mass of pseudo-logic justifying (and alleviating) the individual's own relationship (or lack thereof) bumps and bruises. The sad thing is, this is what makes the whole thing so difficult to change...with these ideas entrenched in maintaining their sense of self, neither the full-bore aggressive misogynist nor the passive attributer-of-archetypes is willing to face opposition or criticism...which might obliquely challenge their comfortable position of superiority and blamelessness.

The third thing is the socio-cultural aspect of gender archetypes. Most people don't think about where their ideas come from, and don't have the slightest conception of ideas like "context." Living in the Midwest, I'm often surprised by the assertions regarding the inherently limited capacities of females. By contrast, I've heard far less denigratory things in Muslim regions about women's *capabilities*, even as a litigatory standard limits their activities. Anyway, most people assume that their ways of thinking about gender are the only ones, and don't realize that three cultures over the ideas about the inherent traits of men and woman are reversed or otherwise confabulated. Furthermore, few consider how gender relations and roles have been actively influenced by economics, religion, subsistence needs in the past, or how some ideas about gender have lingered post-utility, artefacts of an earlier period of thinking.
Not that this necessarily broadens their perspective: most true misogynists (or their female counterparts) have a deep emotional stake in their beliefs, but sometimes when you run across someone who has never given prolonged thought to the topic (misogynist-by default) it helps.
 
 
penitentvandal
11:29 / 26.12.02
What I tend to think is: we, as a culture, have found it useful, for some reason, to define some qualities as 'masculine' and some as 'feminine' on the basis of analogy, social convention, and so on. However, these qualities are not shared by all men and women, nor does any man or woman embody all masculine/feminine qualities. Rather, most of us are composed of some kind of mixture of masc/fem traits. Interestingly enough, many of the most irritating people in the world (at least IMHO) tend to be people who do perfectly embody the masc/fem comventions: really girly girls or overly macho guys. As human beings, we tend (most of us) to subconsciously accept some mixture of masc/fem as making people generally more interesting, and recognize the limiting nature of these conventions on a personal level.

It's a map/territory thing, basically, isn't it?

As to Dave Sim - I believe that the longer life-span of women has been scientifically attributed to two factors: difference in diet between women and men, and Chesed's point about women being more able to admit to their emotions, rather than suppressing them like men, and winding up with high blood pressure etc. That makes a bit more sense to me than Sim's idiot's Taoism about women being Evil Sex 'n Shopping Vampires.

But then, y'know, I actually like women, so I imagine in Sim's world that makes me biased...
 
 
some guy
11:46 / 26.12.02
I'm increasingly coming across people who are prepared to stand up and say that yes, sexism is a real and prevelant problem, that I'm not imagining it, that they are indeed misogynistic as hell and here's why, now what are you going to do about it?

Can we define misogyny for the purposes of this thread? Because, much like homophobe, it's one of those words that often seems too strong to fit some of the people it's thrown at. Is there a difference between Dave Sim and the guy who would prefer that he's the "breadwinner" while his wife stays home to raise the kids? Because some people would call the latter a misogynist, too, and I'm not sure the word fits very well.

A far riskier position is to question their motiviations and experiences to understand (and perhaps resolve, or at least address) *why* they have imported this model of gender and behavior. Because there's always a really personal reason at the bottom.

Do you think so? I suspect that most "misogynists" (or other biased people) aren't working from a personal basis, but rather an environmental one - that is, this is what they know, in much the same way that a Bible-belt Christian "just knows" God exists. I think this is why appeals to reason aren't ever going to do much to change these views. Perhaps the "really personal reason" is in fact the thing that changes these viewpoints, as in Driving Miss Daisy?

The entire intellectual model of male or female archetypes is generally a mass of pseudo-logic justifying (and alleviating) the individual's own relationship (or lack thereof) bumps and bruises.

Are there any male/female archetypes you would point to that aren't "justifying the individual's own relationship?" Yes, these are social constructions, but does that mean they aren't there? And moreover, that they aren't valid? Just playing devil's advocate here for a moment, but it's very trendy to claim that social constructs and stereotypes are false. But I think we can all identify, for example, differences in national character, and one of the reasons why male/female relationship humor (see Coupling) is so effective is because these differences - socially constructed or otherwise - are real and identifiable by many people. Are we claiming that there are no gendered attributes, or are we claiming that we created gendered attributes and now wish to eliminate them?

Anyway, most people assume that their ways of thinking about gender are the only ones, and don't realize that three cultures over the ideas about the inherent traits of men and woman are reversed or otherwise confabulated. Furthermore, few consider how gender relations and roles have been actively influenced by economics, religion, subsistence needs in the past, or how some ideas about gender have lingered post-utility, artefacts of an earlier period of thinking.

I think it's a little more complex than that. Certainly America has redefined its traditional gender roles in a remarkably short period, all things considered.
 
 
The Monkey
19:15 / 26.12.02
First of all, I was trying to deal with models of counterarguments on an interpersonal basis without getting into how culture-idea and culture-reality form an ouroborous...an intellectual circle-jerk which can and has gone on forever. While generally an occupant of intellectual grey area, I was attempting for once to directly address the abstract and the patterns of defence, maintenance, and counter against misogynistic rhetoric.

Re points II and III: again, working in an argumentative framework. The greater question I was trying to address is that an individual consciously espousing and defending a biased position is different from a passive "believer"...hence the question of why the "importation" of a biased model...which generally ties back to issues within the construction of self-identity and interpersonal interactions.

point IV: No, it's much, much more complex. Approximately four to six years of cultural anthropology, psychology, and gender studies reading complex. But I was operating within the imagined context of a verbal debate, where points must be made succinctly, not my bachelor's thesis. I'm confused as to why you're confronting me with my point that gender models are both culturally and temporally dynamic, and flexible in response to environmental cues.


As to "...these are social constructions, but does that mean they aren't there? And moreover, that they aren't valid?"

No, social constructions of gender are as real as any other aspect of human culture: that is, they represent the overlapping warp and woof of present-day consensuality and lacquerings of latter-day constructs manifest and communicated within cross-generational traditions. Which is to say that they are neither here nor there, but must be continuously maintenanced within interpersonal interactions and relationships. They thus experience flexion and dynamism of signicance and deployment both across time and human space very rapidly.

Furthermore...does perceiving something make it true? From both personal experience and academic study it has always seemed to me that people perceive the world through the filters of their beliefs rather than vice versa...so "seeing" stereotypic behaviors relative to nationality, gender, etc., may be as much the eye of the beholder (technically, the associative cortexes of the beholder) as the activities of the object viewed.
 
 
some guy
20:59 / 26.12.02
I'm trying out my "LLBIMG with non-arguing action" persona these days, so these are all general questions addressed to the group. As with my earlier response to Monkey, I'm not actually singling him/her out...

The greater question I was trying to address is that an individual consciously espousing and defending a biased position is different from a passive "believer"...

Can you clarify exactly the sort of person you mean here? Is it the guy "consciously espousing" a biased position over a beer, or is it the head of Promise Keepers, or both? Because we all defend our biased positions all the time; that doesn't mean we consciously chose them based on reason or anything else. I think regional character is a very persuasive indication that biases are environmental (we're "just raised that way") rather than the result of personal experience.

No, it's much, much more complex.

I'm a bit confused - we should discuss the issue, but only on a superficial level?

I'm confused as to why you're confronting me with my point that gender models are both culturally and temporally dynamic, and flexible in response to environmental cues.

I think if you reread my earlier post you'll find that I agree with this theory.

No, social constructions of gender are as real as any other aspect of human culture: that is...

A bit of a having-your-cake-and-eating-it-too there, I think. Perhaps we should define what constitutes a gendered attribute, social creation and "real" for the purposes of the discussion. For example, if our society has somehow created the notion that women are more emotional than men, and from this notion it transpires that women have somehow developed into being more emotional than men, is the statement Women are more emotional than men "real" even though it is the result of a "false construction?"

Or to put the question a bit differently - whether you support/oppose gendered attributes/stereotypes (for example, the lists upthread by other posters), do you believe that the genders in general map to these types (that is, women in general are more emotional than men, either through nature or social construction)? And based on our answer to that, is observational gender-based relationship humor (Coupling and so on) based on:

A) The in general "reality" of gendered attributes, whether they are natural differences or the result of social construction; or

B) Or collective willingness to suspend our disbelief in gendered attributes for the sake of entertainment; a sort of sex-based mythology?

From both personal experience and academic study it has always seemed to me that people perceive the world through the filters of their beliefs rather than vice versa...so "seeing" stereotypic behaviors relative to nationality, gender, etc., may be as much the eye of the beholder

Perhaps, although I suspect that stereotypes tend to follow observation rather than the other way round. Or do you truly believe there is no such thing as national character?
 
 
SMS
04:35 / 27.12.02
Unfortunately, I still haven't worked out what to make of my recent discoveries. Is it wrong for me to lose respect for these female friends, when the situation is certainly collaborative between them and their men? Should I lose just as much respect for these male friends?

These kinds of questions are often at the front of my mind. It’s interesting, because it isn’t a matter of what your friends should do or how they should feel (neither of which you can control), but what you should do or what you should feel. There’s no obligation to lose respect for another person, or at least, I cannot think of one. On the other hand, we find ourselves naturally having no respect for certain persons and would prefer not to feel guilty about it all. I think the answer has something to do with Sim’s take on emotion. To me, mysogyny is emotion. More than a belief about the capacity of men and women, it is a feeling about men and women. If it were otherwise, the question of whether the mysogynists are right would be purely scientific. As it is, it is a moral question. How should I feel about women? How should I about these particular women who seem so dependent on men?

One answer that might come to mind is that these are just emotions, and I don't have complete control over my emotions. If I find out a man beats his wife, I lose respect for him. I made no choice to do so. It just happened. This might be the best defense mysogyny has, and it is probably the main reason we are all convinced that something is wrong with the way Sim is thinking. We might not have a consensus on what specifically is wrong, but we all know there's something wrong.

But I do have some control over my emotions. I could work myself into a kind of hatred for him or maybe a sadness or maybe an cold, indifferent dislike. I might focus more on compassion for the wife, etc....

The common meaning of "an overly emotional person" is one who has little control over hir emotions. This should be recognized as distinct from suppressing emotion. Suppressing emotion seems to be an exclusion of real feelings from awareness, where controlling emotions works on a more fundamental level, not allowing the feelings to be real at all. I honestly don't know how this fits into psychoanalysis, but it seems to be the usage for other circles.

This is, I think, what Sim means when he talks about emotion, and I think there may be a point to thinking of it as inferior. It seems necessary to have some control over one's emotions to have attributes like moral courage, reasoning, and the like. These attributes need no less emotion than their respective defects. In fact, they probably require more emotion in some sense. Great courage means also great desire.

So if it is appropriate to ask how I should feel about other people, perhaps the best way to begin is with some ideal, like, "I ought to feel complete love and respect for all people." Recognizing that this is especially difficult if not impossible, we could come up with some curve that approaches that, like "whenever I cannot feel complete love and respect for this individual, I will pick the alternative that most closely approximates that." We don't have to worry about how this could hurt the relationship between two people (making one less powerful than the other), because that kind of thing depends mostly on the actions that are taken, and an action is not determined by the emotion of the actor.

I think I can finally get to the mysoginist. The mysoginist making a pseudo-reasoned argument will say something like
1. "women are overly emotional creatures"
2. "I shouldn't like overly emotional creatures."
therefore,
3. "I shouldn't like women." The principle of picking the most respectful and loving emotion for other people (including, of course, women) suggests that 2 is false. 1 is for the scientists to figure out, but it seems false in general.

So if I shouldn't be a mysogynyst, how should I respond to them?
 
 
some guy
12:58 / 27.12.02
The mysoginist making a pseudo-reasoned argument will say something like
1. "women are overly emotional creatures"
2. "I shouldn't like overly emotional creatures."
therefore,
3. "I shouldn't like women." The principle of picking the most respectful and loving emotion for other people (including, of course, women) suggests that 2 is false. 1 is for the scientists to figure out, but it seems false in general.


I'm not sure I buy that we can shape our emotions, although clearly we can control them (or rather, control the behavior that stems from them). And it's difficult to introduce an overarching principle for everyone - that we must pick the most respectful and loving emotion for other people - into a discussion about other people's deeply ingrained princicples in the first place. I suspect most people don't share your new principle (take a sample of opinions on Osama bin Laden), which means we would be "reasoning" with people on our terms, not theirs, and that has never proven very successful.

Moreover, I still believe that it is impossible to eliminate a bias or prejudice through reason, because they are not based on reason. We can flip the spotlight onto ourselves for a good example.

It seems to me that most of Barbelith is pretty liberal. Most of us are probably far left, treat No Logo as a bible and Noam Chomsky as a prophet. But. I have seen intelligent, reasonable conservatives completely eviscerate No Logo with well-constructed arguments that are factually valid and difficult to overturn with logic. Have these reasoned arguments changed my political beliefs? No, they have not, because ideology is not based on reason.

A conservative isn't going to talk me out of being a liberal, and a Barbelite isn't going to talk Dave Sim out of being a misogynist. A more effective path for this thread might be: If we cannot reason with misogynists, how might we best minimize their effect on society? Rather than attempt to deal with Sim, what's the best way to combat the meme he's spreading? And, perhaps more interesting, if Sim holds these beliefs but treats actual women with respect, what does that mean?
 
 
gingerbop
16:39 / 27.12.02
Women r different from men, men r different from women.
Ur not changin anythin by comparing what they do.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
04:51 / 28.12.02
There was a book on public speaking which I wish I had handy; it described that there's a hierarchy that you should keep in mind when trying to persuade someone. Something like, actions are easier to change than opinions, opinions are easier to change than values, values are easier to change than core beliefs, etc. (There were useful definitions of what makes something a value rather than a belief which escape me.)

My point here is that while it's true that a conservative won't talk me out of being a liberal at heart, well-reasoned conservative arguments might change my opinions about some specific issue. For that reason, I don't think we need necessarily write off a misogynist. For example, perhaps one could convince Sim that it's the overemotional folk that can't be trusted; he would still expect that behavior to come from women, and would therefore have less respect for women, but might tend to listen more to a logical argument from a woman (and less to an emotional argument from a man).
 
  
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