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They were throwing stones at infants!

 
 
Ellis
19:15 / 05.09.01
From BBB.co.uk

quote: The group of about 80 pupils and their parents were being stoned by a loyalist crowd at the Glenbryn estate, and as the police moved in a device, believed to have been a blast bomb, exploded.

Christ...
 
 
Mordant Carnival
19:21 / 05.09.01
Just watched a peice about this on the news. I feel sick. Kids as young as four years old, for Pete's sake, and people are verbally abusing them and chucking rocks, and now they've set off a bomb! What kind of person does that?
 
 
nul
20:45 / 05.09.01
People that don't discriminate based on age? Devil if I know. Sickos, I'd suspect.

Then again, women and children have been the targets of violence for eons. Why should they stop now just because we're... mmm... I hesitate to say morally superior, but close enough.

In any event, it's all a terrible shame.
 
 
The Puck
22:27 / 05.09.01
o.k its genrally accepted that these people shouldnt throw stones, abuse, and bombs at little kids, i personaly think its sick and wrong (besides there being better ways of getting a message across)but can sombody tell my why ON GODS GREEN EARTH would a childs parants open there child up for such abuse?!!
Correct me if im wrong but isnt there a safe back way into the school. if these people had a problem WHY drag your children into it?
As moral as i may be and willing to put my body in danger for what i belive in, i really can not imagine endangering my child for those belifs.
Ok maybe im not as verbose as the people that normally post at the Head shop but my hackles have been raised
 
 
Dee Vapr
22:35 / 05.09.01
Oh I don't know, I think there's a valid Protestant point about the children being used as a publicity stunt. in there. somewhere. But it's a very, very small point.

But still... noone, adult or child, should have to suffer intimidation like this in their own back yard.
 
 
johnny whatif
07:52 / 06.09.01
It really is a tough fucking call, and i think that underlying this whole situation is the fact that both sides have become deeply entrenched in mistrust and anger - this makes it very difficult for anyone to remain rational.

I live in Ireland, but am apolitical. It's still very difficult not to (or at least to appear to) take sides when discussing anything to do with the troubles.

This situation in the Ardoyne area is very, very complicated...

On one hand, there's the simple safety aspect of it - if (for example) there happened to be a riot or a brawl broke out or there was a fire on the way to their school in the morning, surely the parents would have taken their children by an alternative route? Simply because the aggression (and violence) is of a political bent, why does that mean that they should jeopardise the safety of their kids?

On the other hand, these people have been living with this kind of intimidation for a long time. It's their fucking right to take their kids to school in the morning, it's the right of the children to go to school, and no-one should be able to take that away. Some of the parents are making a stand for their rights by bringing their children through the front way to school.

I think that's the whole reason for the thorniness of the debate here. The Loyalists categorically should not be subjecting the parents (let alone the children) of the Ardoyne to this kind of (or indeed any kind of) abuse. The fact remains, however, that they are.

It's a matter for the parents, then, to decide whether they want to take a stand against this abuse. But should innocent children be involved in this? Not being a parent myself, i have no idea how i would decide should i be in a similar situation.

A question worth asking, though - how many of the parents who brought their children the front way to school did so because they wanted to assert their human right to education, and how many did so to make a political point? I would say that most of the parents would fall in the former category, but...

The point has been made about the callousness of using children to send a political message, at potential danger to the children. I don't believe that, in most cases, it was that calculated - they simply wanted their children to go to school.

Apparently (heard from radio news last nite) - on Monday morning, none of the parents were expecting this type of thing to be happening, on Tuesday the police had changed their tactics, walking some of the children to school and forming a security corridor along the the route, and yesterday, the Loyalists changed their tactics to compensate. When there was a reduced police presence yesterday morning, that - combined with the more aggressive Loyalist plans - made it possible for this to happen. Most of the parents bringing their children that way thought that it would be (relatively) safe.

I think that no-one in their right mind would disagree that throwing pipe-bombs in areas where children are walking to school is sick, and a deplorable act. But, given the danger (politically-related or not), were these parents right to bring their children the front way to school?

I'm not sure exactly where i fall on that one. I have family near there, and obviously, i'm worried about them. I do, however, believe that no-one should be able to deny them their human rights.

I know it sounds hippie-ish, but if they'd all stop fucking about and perpetuating this atmosphere of hate and violence, it would remove that layer of argument from the whole debate - making the whole process easier for all concerned. These people (not Loyalists, not Republicans, just the people who advocate violence) are reprehensible scum.

[ 06-09-2001: Message edited by: johnny whatif ]
 
 
Cat Chant
21:23 / 07.09.01
[disclaimer: obviously I wouldn't condone violence against tiny children]

I think the question for me is, why does it take the involvement of children to crystallize this issue? Do children have more of a right to be safe than adults? Or is it because children aren't able to make their own decisions on this point and so are more open to being 'used' as emotive propaganda on both sides - opening the non-rhetorical question "What sort of a world do we live in where children can't walk to school in safety - and how do we make a different sort of world?" (And this is the kind of propaganda that is used in so many different contexts, eg "keep our children safe from homosexual propaganda" in the Section 28 debate - this is another kind of violence against children in itself by imposing the idea that heterosexuality is 'natural' - or on the other side 'corrupting' the children by *not* imposing that idea...)

I think the idea that children are 'innocent' and are entitled to a certain non-involvement in 'guilty' (political/violent) things is at work here. The idea that the protection of children is a basic, universal human impulse and should override any political differences. Which can work to the good or to the bad.

Hmmmm. Don't know where to go with this. I'll shut up.
 
 
pantone 292
11:21 / 08.09.01
deva is spot on. See the front page article on today's Guardian. The other major point about the way that 'children' are figuring in the representation of Northern Ireland is in terms of the relative birth rates of Catholic and Protestant - the latter seeing the former as 'taking over' through their faster expanding numbers.
 
 
Cat Chant
13:03 / 08.09.01
... and back to the question of whether "we" have enough resources to accommodate "them" a la the thread on the Tampa refugees?

(Hello, Blue, and nononono it is *you* who are spot on)
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:33 / 09.09.01
Has this situation at this school happened every year or is it just bad this year? If the latter, why?
 
 
Kobol Strom
15:14 / 09.09.01
The stone throwers seemed more like mindless teenage thugs than anything else.At this time of year,the schools return after the summer holiday,which means xenophobia is running at its highest.Loyalists were disavowing the actions taken by these youths,and branding them as thugs.'Thugs'- Young guys,tracksuits,stones,pipe bombs -and not a brain between them.
 
 
Red Cross Iodized Salt
23:21 / 09.09.01
quote:Originally posted by The Ungodly Lozt and Found Office:
Has this situation at this school happened every year or is it just bad this year? If the latter, why?


I seem to remember hearing that the school was firebombed back in 1998, and Ardoyne has been the scene of numerous clashes over the last thirty or so years.

The Economist has a good article:
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=771542

[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: Suddenly there's Vancouver ]
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
23:21 / 09.09.01
This is what happens when you accept the primacy of theory, idea or religion over practice. Of course it's not okay to throw stones at little kids. Never mind bombs.

But these people think it's okay because they have a really really important reason.

Wrong.

And Deva, forgive me, but yes, children (as non-combatants and even perhaps non-participants) do have more of a right to be safe than adults. They can't take 'informed' risks, can't help but be there, are not responsible or even able to comprehend the forces at work around them and it sure as hell isn't their fault.

At root, they're no different from us. But at root, neither is a cat, a fly, or a rock.

Social constructions...
 
  
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