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Emotional maturity and economic stability.

Goodness Gracious Meme

21:59 / 19.12.02

Arising from a conversation about how alot of people I know (self included) aren't especially emotionally mature, and how in my circles of friends, it's the same ones who are in short-term, low paid jobs, insecure professions (academia, arts, freelancers), or are dolescum... So are pretty wobbly financially. (as in might take the stabilers off one day)

Whereas, some of my friends of similar ages - 20s - and some of the younger ones (gah) own houses, are in marriages or long-term cohabiting 'life partner' things... have the mortgage, the insurance, the kids etc... Seem to be much more 'sorted', emotionally.

Not sure where I'm going with this but do you think there's a connection bewteen one's emotional maturity and the stability of one's financial affairs....

Is it a inability/refusal to deal with everyday life in all its forms, or does financial security bring with it a training in responsibility? Do damaged people end up poor under capitalism?

How is the concept of 'adult' linked to money/economics?

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:23 / 19.12.02

Hoom. Another way to look at this might, of course, be to cross-section it the other way. It seems to be Heidegger month, so how about if we suppose that, if financial security is "ready to hand" (or possibly present at hand, but that really needn't concern us here), then it's very easy to grab it and use it for all those things that financial stability is used for - mortgage, marriage, children, and so forth.

Take, for example, the young man who is born from a prosperous family, attends Eton and Cambridge, and then secures a job as a management consultant, meets a nice girl, marries her and raises 2 children. In a sense, he is doing precisely what das Man (one, the Heideggerian "they") might resonably expect one to do with that set of tools (a well-built rolodex, an old school tie and a lot of money for stamps). Uncle Martin uses the word "ineigentlichkeit" for the condition of doing what is expected without criticism, which is related to "eigenlich" - describing what is real or proper - but also, in his etymology, to "eigen" - describing what is one's own. In a sense, the person following this path is not actually grappling with anything that is their own, and thus the risks are pretty slim, and the appearance of emotional maturity, which is in fact what das Man represents as emotional maturity, is merely a byproduct of successful tool use. And what happens, then, if what is one's own is suddenly introduced jarringly? If the job that provided the financial stability is suddenly ripped away and given to a younger man? If the prosperous family is gouged by the IRS into penury? If the wife leaves with the aforementioned younger man, or the husband is revealed as an intravenous drug user and part-time paedohile? Perhaps it is there that actual emotional maturity, rather than the ataraxia brought on by compliance, might be measured.

Of course, our friend with the spouse and suburban home might have a ready rejoinder, but I'm sure there's no need for me to expound it.

22:45 / 19.12.02

Do damaged people end up poor under capitalism?

I don't know about you, but I've seen people who are damaged even by conventional standards be extremely successful. The lawyer who spends 16 hours a day working, has no social life and relies on his PA to get his laundry done... the young consultant who's a coke addict and can't cope with a relationship... alcoholic computer contractors who skip from hotel to hotel...

The Return Of Rothkoid

23:05 / 19.12.02

Do damaged people end up poor under capitalism?
How well's Eminem doing? Entertainment thrives on this kinda thing, doesn't it? Isn't it the rule rather than the exception that there's something a bit fucked-up about entertainers? Something that drives them on?

Tryphena Absent

23:13 / 19.12.02

And then there's a friend of mine who has a secure job, mortgage and a fiance who he relies on for emotional wellbeing. Three years ago he broke up with a very nice young lady, got wasted and proceeded to break three of his toes by kicking a wall very hard. I have no doubt that the same would happen today if his fiance left him and so live in hope that actually the longer you leave all the stable stuff the more realistically mature you will actually be when things work out. Do damaged people end up poor under capitalism? I don't know but I'll keep you posted, you never know, my friend might collapse from the stress of his mortgage or his soon to be bitch of a wife.

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:41 / 19.12.02

Fridge and Janina - so how do you feel this interacts with the eigenlichkeit stichkeit?

Roth: Hmm...but Eminem presumably managed, despite all his damage, to get himself an agent, record a demo, tout that demo enthusiastically and energetically, adapt to a new way of living...in many ways, he culd be said to be highly functional, with an enviable work ethic and a great eye for the media.

It might be said, of course, that all his financial success has not brought him emotional maturity, as evinced by his vicious assaultson his mother, Kim, the Insane Clown Posse, Christina Agulera et al in his albums. Then again, what could be more mature than expressing your feelings? I don't recall many cries of emotional immaturity being levelled at Bob Dyan when he released "Blood On the Tracks"...is such public score-settling inevitably a sign of an undignified, emotionally adolescent attitude, or are there other forces at play.

As an aside, I can certanly see situations in which what *I* would probably knee-jerkingly identify as emotional retardation seems (emphasis on "seems" - I can see an interesting exemplum in the contrast of the two managers in the second series of The Office here) to be a necessary component of success - certainly many sales jobs, and, as you mention, the entertainment industry. But is this immaturity or just parallel evolution? Shannen Docherty, for example, seems to have demonstrated that there are, although different standards, still standards. Hoom....

00:29 / 20.12.02

Fridge and Janina - so how do you feel this interacts with the eigenlichkeit stichkeit?

I'm not familiar with the Heidegger that you refer to, so I'm going to have to take your description of the term, "the person following this path is not actually grappling with anything that is their own, and thus the risks are pretty slim" et al, here.

I don't think this really applies to the same constituency. The person who damages themselves in pursuit of success is certainly grappling with personal issues, even if they're not doing it very well - they may not be facing up to the realities but "their own" is very significant. They are in a different category to the person who gets a job, earns money, gets a mortgage etc, as prescribed in the manual of corporate life success.

I would actually say that there were more people who were in the former category than the latter, from those that I've known. The disturbing life events that you mention, and others, are almost guaranteed to occur. People may, and do, attempt to follow a path that will lead them to this, but they rarely succeed. (Is this just my social circle, perhaps?)

17:35 / 20.12.02

Theres a couple of things that make me feel uncomfortable with the points raised here. Apart from the fact that I'm not sure what emotional maturity is (as opposed to emotional stability, say) I don't like the way it is being linked with economic success.

I think that there is an argument to be made for conformity (Haus example is one I might have brought forward myself) often being a key part in earning money. Big media figures make such a tiny proportion of the population as not to count here, although one could chart trends in pop to see how uniformity is rewarded.

Also, the implication that someone in a profession "academia, arts, freelancers" is very financially insecure doesn't really hold water. People in those areas almost certainly have a university education and have options available to them that guarantee a minimum level of income. Compare that with, say, a large proportion of the population who don't have those choices and are stuck in low paid, insecure jobs. Most of us here are from an incredibly privileged section of a very wealthy nation.

17:47 / 20.12.02

Yeah, I need this...

In a sense, the person following this path is not actually grappling with anything that is their own, and thus the risks are pretty slim, and the appearance of emotional maturity, which is in fact what das Man represents as emotional maturity, is merely a byproduct of successful tool use. And what happens, then, if what is one's own is suddenly introduced jarringly?

...unpacked for me.

What's the tool being used - the set of social principles that make up "rightness" & "propriety"?

If I'm reading any of that right, I think it's a little light on the difference between *being* emotionally mature and *appearing* emotionally mature. Or does eigenlichkeit carry with it a sense of performance, or costuming? Taking up the (socially constructed) *signifiers* of maturity?

I don't feel any more emotionally mature now than I did two years ago, but I was living in a two room apartment then, sleeping on a fold-out sofa bed with boxes of comics stuffed underneath it, and now I own a home, new car, and worry about getting a kid to cello lessons on time. I *appear* more emotionally mature, I think, because of the trappings of financial stability (although, to be perfectly honest, I'm a lot less financially stable now then I was then - I spend a lot more and have much bigger bills).

Now it may also be that one of the characteristics of emotional maturity is the ability to assume those trappings - to wear the businessman's mask - without undermining yourself as a "sell-out" or "bourgeois" or whatever.

05:48 / 23.12.02

So in summary (if I may be so bold), people with lots of money appear more emotionally stable/secure/mature because

a) they have fewer stressful situations in which to display their instability, or perhaps have more to fall back on in a time of stress, and
b) we consider financial stability--or the appearance of it--to be one of the characteristics of emotional maturity.

I think what we need is exactly what almost every poster has asked for: a better definition of emotional maturity.

04:12 / 24.12.02

Lucid Archive posted:
Apart from the fact that I'm not sure what emotional maturity is (as opposed to emotional stability, say)

substatique wrote:
I think what we need is exactly what almost every poster has asked for: a better definition of emotional maturity.

I think I would have to agree with both of these POV's

Pleeeease explain what emotional maturity is. Does it mean I can sleep with the light off, or does it mean I can pay my taxes and wear condoms when I sleep with strangers - amd, of course, not expect anything via used condom?

Really, if we are talking emotional maturity, it only depends on whom interacts with you.

Goodness Gracious Meme

11:28 / 24.12.02

oh, grr. I think my initial post was rubbish, to be honest, and am trying to figure out what I mean myself now. There was a point there somewhere, but i agree what someone said about dodgy assumptions in it. Drunk and very tried, sorry.

Will have a think about what I mean and come back.

No star here laces

19:09 / 24.12.02

Well one could I guess argue that success in the modern world is dependent on how well one can suppress ones emotional responses in favour of rational manipulation of the outside world.

But I wanna ask another question - would the world economy be more stable if as a whole humanity were more emotionally stable? If we weren't all trying to compensate for something-or-other, or trying to make up for our guilt about whatever? Is a balanced fair society a natural result of more emotionally stable people?

01:20 / 25.12.02

well, imho, the best definition of emotional maturity would have to be the ability to both express oneself emotionally, as well as the ability to make decisions in a completely comfortable manner (whether or not they allow emotion to be involved is really a decision best left up to them, and is possibly the best judgement of another's emotional age).

16:57 / 21.01.03

The old "If you're so smart, why aren't you rich?" argument rears its ugly head very often these days, especially amongst poor and intuitive people who try very hard and don't seem to get anywhere under the current structure of "The System".

I think the whole idea of emotional maturity and financial affairs being linked in some way is probably true to some degree, but in such an arbitrary way as to not have any set rules regarding how the two interact.

Oh, and a tangentially-related quote from MLKJr.:

We must develop a program that will drive the nation to a guaranteed annual income. Now, early in this century this proposal would have been greeted with ridicule and denunciation, as destructive of initiative and responsibility. At that time economic status was considered the measure of the individual's ability and talents. And, in the thinking of that day, the absence of worldly goods indicated a want of industrious habits and moral fiber. We've come a long way in our understanding of human motivation and of the blind operation of our economic system. Now we realize that dislocations in the market operations of our economy and the prevalence of discrimination thrust people into idleness and bind them in constant or frequent unemployment against their will. Today the poor are less often dismissed, I hope, from our consciences by being branded as inferior or incompetent. We also know that no matter how dynamically the economy develops and expands, it does not eliminate all poverty.

::aphonia::

21:13 / 21.01.03

I've been thinking about this a lot myself lately. I think to some degree it's about what people want. I think it's kind of a willingness to commit. I have a temp job now, but I could go take the government quizes and probably get the position I have now or a similar one, for more money, but there's something creepily permenant about it. All the good things that come with it are disconcerting: healthcare, 401k, steady (well, steadier) paycheck, a little linoleum like plate with my name etched into it. If I get all that, will I be willing to give it up for something better if riskier? Fear of getting too stable, I guess.

God. That sounded much, much less trite in my head, and I have no excuse, I'm awake and sober. But for real, I think that there's a fear among some people who are idealists at heart to take anything more than getting by that's less than ideal, and maybe that is emotional immaturity. I'm not sure.