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privilege and independence

 
 
passer
12:24 / 14.02.02
Someone (ampersand, by handle) posted this on a another board (Ms. magazine boards) and it struck a cord with me at least.

quote: The more privileged you are, the easier it is to envision human beings as pure individuals, unconnected to other individuals in any way that matters.
Indeed, the heart of mainstream economic theory is a construct called "economic man"; a theoretical person who makes all decisions independantly, based on pure self-interest. When mainstream economists try and predict decision-making, they ask "what would economic man do?" (It's not a coincidence that they so rarely ask about "economic woman").
It's that sort of conception of human life - completely independant of other people, with only your own mind and desires to be concerned with - which is behind the thinking in ..."what does everyones thoughts have to do with you?"
For someone with a lot of privilege, the rational answer is, "it doesn't have much to do with me at all." The more privileged you are, the less other people's thoughts matter (this is why it's unsurprising that economics - by far the most white-male-dominated social science - is the one that came up with "economic man"). You go into a store, and you buy what you want, or you don't buy. You don't have to worry about what the store clerks think of you - what could matter less?
Let's say, however, that you're Debbie Allen, the very successful producer and choreographer, who is a black woman. When she walks into a store, it does matter what the clerks think of her - because those clerks might decide to refuse to sell her anything (she obviously can't afford it). This isn't a hypothetical situation - it really happened. Just as it really happened to Patricia Williams (a very successful lawyer who is a black woman), who had a clerk refuse to even buzz her into the store.
Those are two small examples, but they illustrate what I mean. To someone with a lot of privilege, what strangers think is irrelevant. To someone in a less privileged position, what strangers think of you determines what kind of access you get to the complex network of relationships that make up our society and our economy. When strangers often think less of you because of your sex or race, you will have less access to all the benefits of our society and economy.
People with less privilege are therefore more likely to see that we are, in fact, inter-related, not independant.
People with more privilege, in contrast, can easily imagine that they are independant. A big mark of privilege is that these networks tend to facilitate our goals, rather than block them. This makes it easier to ignore the social and economic networks around us. Imagine two roads: one smooth, well-paved, well-maintained, the other lumpy and full of cracks and pits. Most people will drive over the smooth road without even noticing it, but the pitted road - that gets noticed.
So your view of the world - in which what other people think of us only matters in our own minds - is a privileged view, in my opinion. I'd argue that the feminist view of the world - in which people are not independant but interlinked, and therefore what others think of you matters in very real and concrete ways - is much more accurate than the privileged view, in which we're all independant beings, who (if they're smart) don't care what others think. We are inter-related. No one is independant; we all rely on a network of social and economic ties to tens of thousands of strangers, just to get through a single day. (Who grew the food you eat? Who paved the road you take to work? Who built the house you live in? Who wrote the textbooks you learn from? I bet you didn't do all these things yourself.)
What jobs you have access to; what services you have access to; what housing you have access to; how the police and other authorities treat you; whether the legal and social institutions are designed to accomidate your life or not; all these are results of what others think about you. It does matter; it's not just something women and minorities need to learn to not care about.
Amp


So, folks, thoughts? Is independence prefaced on privilege?
 
 
w1rebaby
12:37 / 14.02.02
privilege is in many ways defined by your ability to do what you want without interference by others, so it's not that surprising that people in privileged situations find it hard to sympathise with those who are not. It's not necessarily a question of being uncaring, they just can't quite appreciate what it's like. No bread? Let them eat cake.

if you find yourself able to act in ways that are defined by your will alone, then I can see that it's easy to imagine that you're independent of other people, not realising that your choices dictate their lives but not vice versa. The consequences of your actions are hidden from you. (If you're not paying attention, that is.) So yeah.

(This was touched on in the big fat Sheltered Life thread, people in boom times cutting welfare because they can't understand how anyone could ever need it. They're all independent beings like me, if they're not making money they must be lazy...)
 
 
No star here laces
06:32 / 15.02.02
I'm re-reading Primo Levi's "The Drowned and the Saved" at the moment, partly prompted by the earlier Privilege thread. He has a lot to say on the subject with reference to privileged prisoners in the concentration camps.

To quote:
"The ascent of the privileged, not only in the Lager but in all human coexistence, is an anguishing but unfailing phenomenon: only in utopias are they absent. It is the duty of righteous men to make war on all undeserved privilege, but one must not forget that this is a war without end. Where there exists power exercised by the few or by only one against the many, privilege is born and proliferates, even against the will of the power itself."

But he expressly does not think the privileged have any true 'independence' as illustrated by the story of Chaim Rumkowski the "king of the ghetto". This is summarised in a heartbreaking paragraph:

"Like Rumkowski, we too are so dazzled by power and prestige as to forget our essential fragility: willingly or not we come to terms with power, forgetting that we are all in the ghetto, that the ghetto is walled in, that outside the ghetto reign the lords of death and that close by the train is waiting."

So, to me, I think the point is more that in our society of economic tyranny, the economically privileged have a particular form of independence. Our society is predicated on exploiting the desire for that form of independence i.e. that privilege. But at the end of the day that same economic tyranny ghettoises us all. True independence lies in creating a society that does not create privilege.

Furthermore, pace Levi, it is not the privileged who are guilty - it is the tyrants. The privileged are not they who have set the rules. But they are the ones with the responsibility for the future - the ones with the power to effect change, and it is deeply cowardly for them to deny or avoid that responsibility.
 
 
Ganesh
14:00 / 15.02.02
In all studies of stigma, it's been found (perhaps counter-intuitively) that those furthest down the socioeconomic ladder have a greater apparent need to stigmatise those even further down. Not sure if that's quite what you're getting at, Passer, but possibly relevant to the discussion.
 
 
Sax
14:04 / 15.02.02
See The Two Ronnies sketch with John Cleese:
"I look down on both of them"
"I look down on him, but up to him."
"I look up to both of them. I know my place."
 
 
w1rebaby
15:11 / 15.02.02
quote:those furthest down the socioeconomic ladder have a greater apparent need to stigmatise those even further down

Seems quite intuitive to me... the further down the ladder you are (when you know it), the greater your need to raise your own status by increasing the apparent distance between you and those "below" you. If there's a lot of ladder above you, you want to feel there's a lot below you as well, so you have to look at it in a different way. Um, the ladder metaphor is kind of breaking down here, help....
 
 
Thjatsi
15:37 / 17.02.02
As a possible counterexample, I'd like to point out that the independence follows privilege model seems out of place for Jean-Paul Sartre. His brand of existentialism focuses heavily on the choices and decisions of the individual. However, if I remember correctly, he began to develop these ideas during the Nazi occupation of France. Being French during this time wasn't exactly a privileged existence.
 
 
passer
01:13 / 18.02.02
While I agree that the privilege are also "trapped" in the system, I also see more willing complicity in the system. Most of the everyday privilege people utilize isn't the result of a single tyrant imposing rules, but actively requires reinforcement by the privileged.

I'll confess that it was the sheltered life thread that inspired me to post this. This post was the best response I've ever seen to the "boot strap" argument as far as explaining to people who don't see why single minded determination is enough to overcome any barrier. It helps, but at a certain level no one gets there alone, whether or not you want to admit that.

As for stigma I don't think it's counter intuitive at all. It's a part of buying into priviledge with comparative elevation. Yeah, I maybe be poor, but I'm not poor and black. I might be poor and black, but I'm a man. Sort of scrambling for the priviledge crumbs.
 
  
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