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Free Will vs. Determinism.

 
 
SMS
04:00 / 01.09.01
The question of whether or not a human being decides his own actions has always irritated me slightly. Something about it just rubs me the wrong way. This is not because I prefer one answer to the other, but because I cannot make the distinction between the two concepts themselves. I certainly see a difference between me making my own decisions and some other person making them for me. There, the things that decide are clearly external from my body, and there is a nice, intuitive feelconcept of the difference between myself and someone else. I am not my brother, for instance. On the deeper levels, I might argue against this seemingly obvious statement, but here I am concerned with something else. The proponent of free will often says something like this:

You can point to all the developments we have made in science, and all the studies we have done on the human brain, but my being must consist of something more than simply the workings of the neurons and such in my head. There is something more.

Whether they mean that this something more is supposed to be physically operating from outside the body I do not know, but I had always guessed that they meant something operating from inside the body., and, in fact, from within the brain itself. What this means, if I understand it correctly, is that there is something we have not discovered about the brain that makes up the mind. This seems reasonable to me, since the brain is such a difficult thing to study, in its complexity and preciousness. But, somehow, these folks seem to mean more than this, for, if I were to say, "ah ha, you are quite right! I have just found something in the brain we did not know about before, and this is how it works," no one would step forward and say it is a victory for the idea of free will. Some might even think of it as an attack against the idea. Why is this? I think it is because it is explained. Or it may be simply that it is explainable. Is this the distinction between free will and determinism? If we can explain ourselves completely, then we must not, in fact, be ourselves?

Something must be making our decisions for us, doing our thinking for us and such, and this we can use to define the creature we refer to as "I" or "me." If these things do not obey the well-established laws of physics, then the well establish laws of physics are false, and need to be modified, so that the "me" obeys them.

How about this for a distinction? Perhaps the fundamental difference between free will and determinism is that, if we have no free will, then some highly sophisticated theory could predict our every action. There could be various degrees of determinism, in which theories become more and more sophisticated in order to accurately predict the decisions we make. Thus, an infinite requirement of sophistication woiuld be free will itself. What this means is that the universe itself would have the potential for its own free will (if our minds do and our minds are in the universe). Richard Feinman once said the goal of science is to prove ourselves wrong as fast as possible. If there is no potential end to this proving ourselves wrong, then the universe requires an infinitely sophisticated theory to explain itself as well.

Take a ball and cut it in half. Now continue cutting it in half forever. Do you ever reach an indivisible particle? What if someone shows you that, no indeed, we do not; that instead, I can simply talk about half that and half the next thing. Never mind if this is true or not. Just imagine the implications. Our brain is made of these particles, and thus, there are an infinite number of elements that go into every action our minds take. So if I put all these elements together, then I should be able to predict everything I will do, but there are an infinite number of these, swhich means I have free will, even though every action is determined.

Okay, so this is a kind of classical way of thinking of it, but I think the point is only reinforced with the advent of quantum mechanics.

Now realize that there is no reason for me to be able to keep cutting the particles. We don't know how space works on ever scale. It may not exist in any recognizable way at small enough scales. If I cut the ball in this kind of spcae, it may not half, but instead play me a songs of the London Symphony Orchestra, or become a goldfish, or something even less plausible. Which does this support, free will or determinism? I say, again, both. Does the situation disobey the laws of physics? By definition, it cannot. The laws change to meet what we see. And is the mind now so limited in what it can create? Never. Isn't such a concept what we see as a type of spirit or soul? It is so wild and beyond our undertanding that one might even say it is to strange to be the sould; too complex, yet simple, or too hard to believe.
 
 
Ellis
11:59 / 03.09.01
Good post Matthew. although I think you lost me on the cutting the ball in half part at the end.

Anyway, I am walking down the street and come to a fork in the road, do I go left or do I go right.
If I want to go right and go right do I have freewill?
[If I want to left and so instead go right do I have freewill?]
If you repeat this exact same scenario millions of times, and every time I choose to go right instead of left, do I have freewill, or am I determined to go right?

Does that make sense?

I agree with you that freewill and determinism is the same thing, because even though I think I have conscious freewill, my actions are still subconciously determined...

I make no sense. Pah.
 
 
autopilot disengaged
08:16 / 04.09.01
hm. not entirely sure i get yr metaphysics here, SMatt - but i'll reread, try and decipher exactly what you're saying.

one thing though: i think, regardless of all that, it's necessary for us as human beings to believe in free will. otherwise, what?

william james: "my first act of free will will be to believe in free will."
 
 
Wombat
08:55 / 04.09.01
OK.
Current theory is that neurons contain microtubules that act as waveguides at the quantum level. This allows a form of interconnectedness within the brain that cannot be reproduced by digital devices. (Our brain can easilly perform actions that are non-computable...for example tiling a non-repeatable pattern to infinity)
Disrupting microtubules produces unconciousness.
Free will and mind are produced by a synergy between the wave forms held in the tubules and the basically digital neurons.
 
 
agapanthus
10:12 / 04.09.01
SMatthewStolte wrote:
quote:The question of whether or not a human being decides his own actions has always irritated me slightly. Something about it just rubs me the wrong way. This is not because I prefer one answer to the other, but because I cannot make the distinction between the two concepts themselves

Geez Mat(e), you've raised some of the big questions here, although how could you claim to being indifferent to determinisn ? I 'spose an absolute determinist has no sense of pride, conscience, guilt ...

SMatthewStolte wrote:


quote:You can point to all the developments we have made in science, and all the studies we have done on the human brain, but my being must consist of something more than simply the workings of the neurons and such in my head. There is something more.



Here's a few quotes from a writer (Cornelius Castoriadis) who has convinced me that this something more is the imagination:

"The imagination is . . .in its essence rebellious against determinacy."

"Simply put, logic is what we share with animals - even with living beings in general. Yet animals have no science. True, we are separated from them by consciousness. But . . .consciousness as such does not lead to science, either. Man's [sic] distinguishing trait is not logic but imagination, and more precisely, unbridled imagination, defunctionalized imagaination. As radical imagination of the singular psyche and as social instituting imaginary, this imagaination provides the conditions for reflective thought to be able to exist, therefore also for a science and even for a psychoanalysis to to be able to exist."

"One must be able to imagine something other than what is to be able to will; and one must will something other than what is to liberate the imagination. . . . [W]hen one does not will anything other than what is, the imagination is inhibited, repressed; in this case, it represents only the eternal perpetuation of what is, every 'decision' is only a choice between possible givens - given by life as it existed beforehand and by the instituted system - which can always be reduced to the results of a calculation or some form of reasoning."

"In other words, will or deliberate activity, is the reflective dimension of what we are as imagining (that is, creative) beings, or again, the reflective and practical dimension of our imagination as source of creation."
 
 
higuita
10:44 / 04.09.01
Sorry to bring in the 'g' word, but I remember this from second year philosophy.

Although the human being is imbued with free will to choose, God, being omniscient, knows the choices that will be made.
As this is the case at the point of creation, it seems to point to determinism, but of course free will is important to the christian conception of sin.
However, theologians frequently argue that even though god knows what you are going to do, and made you and your environment as it is, he isn't determining what you do.

Sometimes this makes sense to me.

However, if you swap an omniscient god for physics it does work a bit better, as there's no moral purpose or predisposition, nor suggestion of a mind and attributable intent.
In the case of a genetic or otherwise based argument for the co-existence of determinism and free will - as one of my old professors used to say - 'I happily embrace the contradiction'.

Ooh, I do feel better for that.
 
 
.
10:54 / 04.09.01
this is a truly fascinating topic, one that i have explored in some depth.

two of my essays can be found at: http://iivix.2itb.com/freewill.htm http://iivix.2itb.com/mental_events.htm

the first is hopefully quite simple and a bit fun, the second is an epic and pretty hard going if you're not used to reading philosophy, as it gets pretty technical. i am more than happy to explain anything that gets too confusing.

the really juicy bit is at the end of the bigger essay. i don't know if i can properly summarise my view here, but i will give it a go-

quantum physics is useful for helping free will exist, but is not itself the answer, since quantum physics allows for indeterminate actions, but free will is not merely about indeterminacy. free will needs not just indeterminacy but also rationality, since randomness does not equal true agent produced free action.

secondly, an analysis of the mental in terms of being event-based, rather than thing-based, allows for an ambiguity in the identity of mental/physical events such that an event can be both mental and physical, eliminating problems concerning a "higher realm" of the mental interacting with a physical realm.

thirdly, one can then move to suggest the correct analysis of a mental/physical event should include the quantum level, and as such it seems less intuitive that a mental/physical/quantum event is purely determined, given the indeterminacy of the mental and of the quantum.

... still with me? well, i think i'll leave it there really, i'm starting to lose my own train of thought in fact. but this is a great thread, i look foward to reading some more here.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:17 / 04.09.01
Why is this important?

Is it knowable?

These free will/determinism questions are 'meaning of life' issues - but do they mean anything?
 
 
Annunnaki-9
20:13 / 04.09.01
I think there is definitely something such as free-will. Free-will can be considered another word for 'choice.' We as intelligent beings have an imagination with which to examine options on a probable-possible-improbable-impossible spectrum. Of course, these things are value judgements (fallen on hard philosophical times these days, along with free-will). We consider our options as to how they, in accordance with our normal understanding of the universe (be it by intuition {which I think includes a priori estimations} or an emprirical catalogue of probabilities) then choose a path that is available to us.
Using similar ideas, an external observer can watch someone in the throes of decision and estimate their actions along the same spectrum. They may guess right, but that doesn't mean that they KNEW it... it wasn't determined, but the probabilty pool was limited.
Poorly explained, I know, but hey.....
A thing I find interesting is that in the history of ideas, the greatest rationalists, Plato, Leibniz, Kant, Hegel,... have all in the end truncated free-will, arguing that the best- meaning- 'most rational' choice is very limited in scope, if not an absolute monism.
 
 
SMS
22:21 / 04.09.01
I haven't had a chance to read iivix's essays, yet, so maybe this has been addressed, but

quote:iivix:
quantum physics is useful for helping free will exist, but is not itself the answer, since quantum physics allows for indeterminate actions, but free will is not merely about indeterminacy. free will needs not just indeterminacy but also rationality, since randomness does not equal true agent produced free action.

and
quote:Using similar ideas, an external observer can watch someone in the throes of decision and estimate their actions along the same spectrum. They may guess right, but that doesn't mean that they KNEW it... it wasn't determined, but the probabilty pool was limited.

This is exactly the way subatomic particles behave. There's this mysterious thing called rationality that is supposedly linked to free will, but what is it that we as humans have that subatomic particles don't have. I'm not convinced that their process of "choosing" particular behaviour is fundamentally different than our process of choosing.
 
 
.
10:18 / 05.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Nick:
Why is this important?

Is it knowable?

These free will/determinism questions are 'meaning of life' issues - but do they mean anything?


well no more than any of philosophy means anything. this particular issue is especially impotent, given that on a day to day basis everyone has to believe that they are free.

on the other hand, it seems right to say that believing that you are less free (say that you believe that your brain chemistry determines your personality) will make you less free (you will not attept to do anything "out of character" if you think that your personality is set).

on the third hand (of a bizarre three-handed person), confronting limitless free choice will undoubtably paralyse one into doing nothing at all. (Sartre etc "We are doomed to be free").

[ 05-09-2001: Message edited by: iivix ]
 
 
RiffRaff
11:42 / 05.09.01
If you believe the Trafalmadorian notion of Time as a dimension - that is, that everything that is going to happen, has already happened in the future - then there is no free will. There is, however, an illusion of free will, caused by our inability to see the full length of the timeline. Even though the choices we make are preordained, we must still make them due to our lack of information. That's how I see it, anyway.

quote:Something must be making our decisions for us, doing our thinking for us and such, and this we can use to define the creature we refer to as "I" or "me."

I usually refer to that as the 'soul'. It's also the reason my consciousness will never have the chance to be uploaded into a computer, alas. At least not through digital reconstruction of the brain.
 
 
SMS
20:12 / 05.09.01
quote:Originally posted by RiffRaff:
I usually refer to that as the 'soul'.


Don't you mean your soul usually refers to that as your soul? Or do you separate the object doing the thinking from the object doing the referencing?
 
 
nul
20:36 / 05.09.01
If you believe the Trafalmadorian notion of Time as a dimension - that is, that everything that is going to happen, has already happened in the future - then there is no free will. There is, however, an illusion of free will, caused by our inability to see the full length of the timeline. Even though the choices we make are preordained, we must still make them due to our lack of information.

That isn't exactly the Trafalmadorian Notion (Slaughterhouse Five reference, for those who didn't know). Trafalmadorians have no concept of the future, and thus something being preordained as having happened in the future is quite silly. They've made their choices but just happen to know the consequences. In fact, they just happen to know everything that will ever happen, is happening, has ever happened, is happening, will ever happen, ect. They're puppets to their own choices, after a fashion, and are unstuck in time so they hop from unpleasant to pleasant moments at a whim.

Death exists, but at the same time it doesn't. It's very confusing, to say the least.

Time-speak is tiring and circular reasoning won't get us anywhere as we cannot prove any of these theories because we are linear creatures, travelling through time as though it were a line. Is free will an illusion?

No more than reality is an illusion, right?
 
 
.
08:39 / 06.09.01
why do we always talk of existing IN space, but MOVING through time? why not exist IN time, and move through space? what i am trying to say here is why do we think of ourselves as fundementally spatial, with the dimension of time not being intergral to our existence, merely being something we travel through, instead of being fundementally tempral, space being the non-essential constituent that we just happen to travel through? does that make sense at all?
 
 
Wombat
08:49 / 06.09.01
perfectly.
How about.
All possibilities past and future exist.

Free will consists of choosing which pasts/futures our conciousness experiences.

So we have a huge rigid structure of past/future and our perception surfs a point on the structure.
 
 
Wombat
08:49 / 06.09.01
Btw iivix liked your essays.
Need more time to fully grok. But the killer tea serving robot will stay with me as an image for a long time.
 
 
nul
14:53 / 06.09.01
...why do we think of ourselves as fundementally spatial, with the dimension of time not being intergral to our existence, merely being something we travel through, instead of being fundementally temp(o)ral, space being the non-essential constituent that we just happen to travel through?

Time is integral to our existence. We consider time almost all the... time. The idea that it moves too slowly when we are young and too fast when we are older, the fact that we only have a limited amount of time in this life. We don't consider time the same way we consider space because we don't control how we move through time. It's essentially a straight line to us, trapped in this linear perspective of ours. Space can be traversed. We can move backwards and forwards (to those of us in the third dimension) in space, left and right, up and down. We can only move ever forwards in time.

In space we have control, we can determine where we are going to be standing or floating or sitting. In time we have no control, we are being pushed ever forward.

In some ways, time is more important to us than space. Time is the great mystery that we have yet to unravel, that we may never unravel.

Which is why we don't consider time the same way we consider space. Trafalmadorians on the other hand...
 
 
RiffRaff
16:54 / 06.09.01
quoteon't you mean your soul usually refers to that as your soul?

Yes, you could say that. The soul is the part of you that sees through your eyes, the voice you hear when you think, the 'I' in "I am".

Here's a less poetry-sounding example: Say that, through the miracle of molecular technology, some mad scientist makes a clone of me, a perfect duplicate down to the atoms. He will have all the memories encoded in my brain, will have the same knowledge and opinions, and in fact will probably be utterly convinced that he's the original Riff.

I can share personal memories and in-jokes with him, and compliment him on his fine choice of tattoo. But, I can't see out of his eyes, or hear his thoughts. Because my point-of-view, my inner monologue, my soul is not part of my physical structure, and is not duplicated.

quote:Or do you separate the object doing the thinking from the object doing the referencing?

Assuming I get your meaning, I often do, yes. "I'm trying to watch what I eat, but my brain insisted on having lunch at McDonalds." Or to quote Saint Max: "I'm an impulse shopper - the primitive little knot at the top of my spine says I'll have all this stuff!" Or Homer Simpson: "Shut up, brain, or I'll poke you with a Q-tip!"

That's mostly just facetious, though. (I think. ) Perhaps I associate my brain with the 'Id'.


quote:If you believe the Trafalmadorian notion of Time as a dimension - that is, that everything that is going to happen, has already happened in the future - then there is no free will. There is, however, an illusion of free will, caused by our inability to see the full length of the timeline. Even though the choices we make are preordained, we must still make them due to our lack of information.

That isn't exactly the Trafalmadorian Notion (Slaughterhouse Five reference, for those who didn't know). Trafalmadorians have no concept of the future, and thus something being preordained as having happened in the future is quite silly.


Right, I was looking at it from a more human point of view. To a Trafalmadorian, everything happens all at once. (Well not really, but being human it's difficult for me to describe it more properly.)

quote:They've made their choices but just happen to know the consequences.

[Devil's Advocate] Do they make their own choices? If the outcome of a choice has already been determined - in effect, the decision has always already been made, is it really a choice? Vis, does a Trafalmadorian have Free Will? [/Devil's Advocate]
 
 
nul
18:33 / 06.09.01
Do they make their own choices? If the outcome of a choice has already been determined - in effect, the decision has always already been made, is it really a choice?

It hasn't already been made, it is being made. No, wait. It has been made. No, wait. It was made. No, wait. I know what's going to happen, and I know that I was going to think this over despite the fact I know, and now I'm going to raise my left arm and...

It's still a choice. I imagine they think differently than we do, at that. And we should start using a different example or find another angle before I convince myself I can jump into the future.
 
 
Darkling Beetle
00:50 / 18.09.01
quote:"quantum physics is useful for helping free will exist, but is not itself the answer, since quantum physics allows for indeterminate actions, but free will is not merely about indeterminacy. free will needs not just indeterminacy but also rationality, since randomness does not equal true agent produced free action."

I just can't agree. A little potential for indeterminacy explains a lot.. it satisfies me in accounting for why the universe ain't clockwork, or how I can make a leap of lateral thinking. And the whole experience of free will deal. I don't need another mechanism, it seems fine - I feel we'd be basically deterministic robots without the quantum-linked ability to freak out in a fundamentally uncertain way. I suppose that's naive, but hey, it works for me.
 
 
runawayworld
23:00 / 11.04.04
Ellis wrote:

Anyway, I am walking down the street and come to a fork in the road, do I go left or do I go right.
If I want to go right and go right do I have freewill?
[If I want to left and so instead go right do I have freewill?]
If you repeat this exact same scenario millions of times, and every time I choose to go right instead of left, do I have freewill, or am I determined to go right?

Does that make sense?

I agree with you that freewill and determinism is the same thing, because even though I think I have conscious freewill, my actions are still subconciously determined...


the past few months, i've been having a war inside my head because i can't get myself to believe in freewill. one day, i was driving, and i realized that if i didn't go where i usually would go just because i want to do something unlike myself, i am still doing what i prefer to do even if, in the past, i always did something else.

i realized that i was a slave to my preferences, in a sense, and that, no matter what, i could not change what i would do at any moment because at that moment, i was doing what i preferred to do, even if i would usually do something else or if i was deliberately trying to "not be myself".

my preferences are something that i cannot change. i like blue, and if i decide for some reason that i don't want to like blue anymore, i can probably get myself to not like blue. this is not a freewill action because i preferred to dislike blue more that i preferred to like blue and, therefore, began to dislike blue.

the idea that freewill is an illusion troubles me... although it shouldn't matter because, either way, i'm going to do what i'm going to do... it seems...
 
 
TeN
18:00 / 12.04.04
To quote the brilliant Kurt Vonnegut,
"'You sound as if you don't believe in free will,' said Billy Pilgrim.
'If I hadn't spent so much time studying Earthlings,' said the Tralfamadorian, 'I wouldn't have any idea what was meant by 'free will.' I've visited thirty-one inhabited planets in the universe, and I have studied reports of one hundred more. Only on Earth is there any talk of free will.'"
- Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., Slaughter House Five
 
 
Henningjohnathan
18:18 / 12.04.04
I like the "microtubules" and the "quantum indeterminance" ideas, but I don't think that proves free will in a physical sense. Even in Quantum theory, basically the motion of energy (waves) and particles is predicated on physical activity over which we have no control. Also, Nietzsche and others bring up the point that even in nature versus nurture, you'll always be able to trace your behavior back to either genetic or environmental causes. It seems that there can be no absolute free will. You will never make a decision where all your influences are in balance, and considering that that decision will be based on most likely physical needs or desires, you can't be considered entirely responsible.

However, I like Stephen Hawkings theory of relative Free Will. His idea is that whatever happens was probably, in the end, determined to happen from the beginning of the universe due to the fact that all matter and energy obey a few very simple rules and their interaction is dependent upon those rules (which we didn't choose, by the way).
However, since we can never have enough information to foresee any actual outcome we might as well behave as if we have free will. We are all equally ignorant and therefore equally responsible for our choices.
I think this could also be applied to our genetic or subconscious impulses as well.

Also, I agree that for the most part we behave as if we are fictional characters being written by some unseen author. I had a dream once where my subconscious mind was talking to me about free will and it pointed out that I didn't choose the choices to choose between. Instead, it ran through many diverse possibilities and based on the personality it gave me; it presented the choices to me. Since our perceptions aren't truly neutral, we can't be completely free in our choices either.
 
 
Quantum
14:00 / 13.04.04
Quicky- the indeterminacy implied by quantum physics necessarily denies any absolute determinism.

In other words, if there's an element of chance in the world even God can't predict the future with certainty. If that's the case then the consequences of a deterministic world (i.e. no free will) never arise, so all the imaginative ontological backflips devised over the centuries to reconcile knowledge and freedom become unnecessary. (We do however have to accept the impossibility of absolute knowledge.)
More anon you lovely people...
 
 
TeN
18:27 / 13.04.04
but who's to say chance isn't fated?

we only call it chance because we can't predict it with absolute certainty. that doens't guarentee that it isn't defined as a system. (take a look at chaos theory, it basically claims that all of what we call chaos can actually be defined by a very complex system)
 
 
Henningjohnathan
19:20 / 13.04.04
I agree. Even if random chance exists, that still doesn't prove free will, since will is about choice. Even if the universe isn't determined, that still doesn't mean we have free will.
 
 
astrojax69
03:28 / 16.04.04
RiffRaff wrote:

" Here's a less poetry-sounding example: Say that, through the miracle of molecular technology, some mad scientist makes a clone of me, a perfect duplicate down to the atoms. He will have all the memories encoded in my brain, will have the same knowledge and opinions, and in fact will probably be utterly convinced that he's the original Riff.

I can share personal memories and in-jokes with him, and compliment him on his fine choice of tattoo. But, I can't see out of his eyes, or hear his thoughts. Because my point-of-view, my inner monologue, my soul is not part of my physical structure, and is not duplicated. "


well, no, but i guess you'd have identical thoughts to him in his position, and he you! that you are individuated does not lend any weight to an argument for or against having a soul!

your 'inner monologue' is very much part of your physical structure! just not 'his', is all...

your physical mechanisms - your brain - for him to have AN inner monologue (but not yours) himself will be duplicated and i am guessing that for quite some time - until he has enough unique life experience of his own to inform his inner musings - yours and his inner monologue would be suspiciously similar.


and why are daring scientists who challenge convention always labelled 'mad'? why can't we use intuition pumps that simply have 'a scientist' who invents a new zombie...?

let's liberate barbelith from mental illness discrimination!
 
 
xenosss
02:34 / 17.04.04
I read through the dozens of posts, so I hope I'm not repeating anyone.

[Ellis]I agree with you that freewill and determinism is the same thing, because even though I think I have conscious freewill, my actions are still subconciously determined...[/Ellis]

I agree with this school of thought. Consciously, we have a will that is completely free. However, subconsciously, on levels deeper and smaller than we can see, determinism reigns.

I cannot help but look at this free will/determinism argument from a scientific view. It is amazing to think of the threads connecting the various sciences together to form "free will". Strings (assuming they exist) vibrate to create particles, quarks join to form subatomic particles, those particles and electrons join to form atoms, those atoms bond to form chemicals and cells and everything around us, those bonded atoms form our brain and all of its wonders. Somehow within the worlds of biology, chemistry, and physics, determinism collapses and free will emerges.

Now, I know everyone has been saying that quantum mechanics seems to prove that free will exists because of its intrinsic indeterminacy. I have to disagree. How are we to know this indeterminacy is real? Given the huge leaps in knowledge humanity has made over the past couple centuries I would not be surprised if a theory was crafted that took into account whatever factors necessary to negate the indeterminacy. Even if this never happens, the indeterminate nature of subatomic particles is just a hurdle of sorts. If it was known somehow the exact positions and velocities of every single particle in existence at a given time, with the (limited) scientific knowledge we have now we could do pretty well with determining any future positions and velocities. Science has done very well with providing the means to discover the future, if only the present would be discovered first.

What this means, to me, is that we live in a very determinant universe. Even if we never have the capabilities to predict the future, it is still there.

[Henningjohnathan]However, I like Stephen Hawkings theory of relative Free Will. His idea is that whatever happens was probably, in the end, determined to happen from the beginning of the universe due to the fact that all matter and energy obey a few very simple rules and their interaction is dependent upon those rules (which we didn't choose, by the way). However, since we can never have enough information to foresee any actual outcome we might as well behave as if we have free will. We are all equally ignorant and therefore equally responsible for our choices. [/Henningjohnathan]

My feelings on the subject are reflected in Hawkings theory. He acknowledges that all that occurs only does so because of initial conditions. At the same time, he recognizes that we'll never have enough information to find those initial conditions. That's the part of the theory I agree with wholeheartedly. The second half, not so much.

Yes, we don't "have enough information to forsee any actual outcome," which forces us to act as though our will is free and not determined. But, does this mean we are responsible for our choices? I think I know what Hawkings is trying to say, but poor word choice. In my mind, we are all accountable, but not necessarily responsible. Of course, I never think after I've done something (good or bad) that it only happens because of the specific conditions of the Big Bang. I go on living my life as the ignorant being that I am. So, while we are, objectively, not really responsible for our actions, we are certainly accountable for them and should strive to "act" accordingly.

[a small tangent]Something that Henningjohnathan's post (and others) have made me think about is the definition of free will. How should it be defined? If we look at it only from a conscious perspective, than it is swimming with all of us. I propose it be thought of only from this point of view. This is how we view the world, through our conscious swallowing of reflected light, and free will should be considered as a part of living in the world. Wow, that was horrible phrased. I apologize, I can't think of how to say exactly what I mean. [/a small tangent]

And, now, I think that's enough. I'll end with a quote:

"I wanna tell you something Mark, something you do not yet know, that we K-PAXians have been around long enough to have discovered. The universe will expand, then it will collapse back on itself, then will expand again. It will repeat this process forever. What you don't you know is that when the universe expands again, everything will be as it is now. Whatever mistakes you make this time around, you will live through on your next pass. Every mistake you make, you will live through again, & again, forever. So my advice to you is to get it right this time around. Because this time is all you have."
 
 
yxis
12:26 / 17.04.04
this is my first post, and i would like to say that i in no way see free will and determinism as a dichotomy.

anyway, arguments for one or the other hinge on linear timeflow... and time does not work that way so much in my experience.
 
 
Myshka
18:33 / 17.04.04
Heres an essay by Jean Bricmont(the guy responsible along with Alan Sokal for the Social Text parody) that I think does a good job of explaining very clearly just what Determinism is, and why Quantum mechanics or Chaos theory in no way contradict it. The section "Determinism and predictability" is particularly relevant, and even if you dont want to read the whole essay, the conclusion "What makes poets happy?" is excellent reading :

Bricmont essay
 
 
lysander
15:27 / 22.04.04
I read some very interesting stuff from
http://nofreewill.blogspot.com/ sometime ago, it's definatly
worth a read, from the site:

"TEST ONE: explain to me the process by which you create a thought. if you cannot explain how you create a thought, then you cannot claim to be in control of your thoughts. if you are not in control of your thoughts, then you have no free will. "choices" and "decisions" are thoughts.

TEST TWO: stop thinking. if you cannot stop the thought process, then you are not in control of it. thinking is like digestion, it happens automatically, as a result of your (brain) biology.

the point of these tests is to demonstrate that thoughts appear spontaneously in our awareness. these things we call "decisions" are simply thoughts. conscious action (as opposed to unconscious or subconscious actions, which cannot be claimed to be the result of free will) follows thought."
 
 
sine
03:51 / 23.04.04
TEST TWO: stop thinking. if you cannot stop the thought process, then you are not in control of it. thinking is like digestion, it happens automatically, as a result of your (brain) biology.

I wonder in this context about meditation techniques that purport to halt the flow of thought.

Without further evidence, free will makes for good philosophy when drunk and poor philosophy when sober. My sober response is generally the unasking of the question.

MU.
 
 
lysander
07:31 / 23.04.04
Hmm, meditation does not halt the flow of thought, the thoughts are still there but merely observed, witnessed but not indulged.

Some meditation techniques focus on one thought, or one thing to blot out other thoughts, but they still have to focus on this one thing.

I'm under the impression that thoughts can be ignored but not stopped.

I'm by no means a meditation expert however, so feel free to correct me
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:20 / 23.04.04
if you cannot explain how you create a thought, then you cannot claim to be in control of your thoughts. if you are not in control of your thoughts, then you have no free will. "choices" and "decisions" are thoughts.

That doesn't work as an argument for me. Free will, as I understand it, is the assertion that a person is the cause of their own actions. However, one can have free will and not be "free". There is no contradiction between being the driver and not having anywhere to go. By the same token, the fact that some things are physically impossible to me - I cannot fly, for instance - does not affect the discussion of whether I have free will.

So, the fact that I may not be able to explain my thoughts and decisions, seems to have little bearing on whether the thoughts and decisions are my own. It points to a restriction and limitation of my understanding and perhaps control. But these kinds of restrictions are obvious. Free will is not the same as personal omnipotence.

TEST TWO: stop thinking. if you cannot stop the thought process, then you are not in control of it. thinking is like digestion, it happens automatically, as a result of your (brain) biology.

Same as above. If we are going to use the characteristics of our consciousness as an argument against free will, then what does that say? That to have "free will", I must be able to control every aspect of my inner self? Besides, I can stop my thought process. I can commit suicide. The fact that I cannot turn it back on again afterwards is just as plausibly a physical limitation of thought - akin to not being able to fly - as a failure of free will.

You have to do better than pointing to restrictions to our freedom in arguing against free will, as far as I am concerned.

BTW, I liked the Bricmont article, Myshka, Thanks.
 
  
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