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Calling classicists please

 
  

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CyberChimp
14:10 / 18.12.02
Hmmm, what an interesting question, grant. I really don't know - my expertise, such as it is, is confined to living apes. Anyone else?
 
 
CyberChimp
14:15 / 18.12.02
I like this, Persephone. Is there any way, oh Latinists, of integrating some kind of ambiguity here, so that the dimidius bit could mean both 'half' and 'two'? Or would that be a matter of wanting my termites and eating them?
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:51 / 18.12.02
I can't help myself wanting to say that it simply is the case that humans are a species of chimpanzee

The only problem being that humans aren't. By the definition of species, rather than any desire to elevate humans.

I'd just like to move away from the idea that there's something extra special about humans, deriving from the mere fact that they are human.

Fair enough. But there are lots of reasons to think of humans as special that aren't circular. This is special in the sense of different, of course, rather than better. Although by some measures humans are better. Interesting that you (implicitly) think of Mills and Boon as emphasising how we are worse (or not better) - isn't that an example of the kind of human oriented perspective you are trying to avoid?

What will become of the other Homo species in this new taxonomy?

Homo is the genus, and since the object here seems to be to get chimps and humans in the same genus, I assume that the other Homo species would follow. If Pan is adopted, rather than homo, then you get Pan Erectus etc.
 
 
Persephone
15:24 / 18.12.02
Working this out very slowly... there's unimanus, which I think technically means one-handed but also really means one-of-two-handed. So I think you could actually just say bimanus to mean two-of-four handed, if that's what you want it to mean.

Demimanus and dimidimanus work a little harder to express that half is not present, only I think these would read as half of a hand and not two hands. I think also that demi connotes something that is cut? As in demilune?

Maybe if you pluralized manus? E.g., Pan dimidimanae?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:44 / 18.12.02
Problem is that dimidius does not, in itself, mean "less by half" - that's the phrasde dimidio minus, which is the noun dimidium not the adjective dimidius. Dimidius means "divided equally in half", which doesn't seem right. Unless you want to go for "dimidio manus", which doesn't really mean anything but is quite a cute pun.

Speaking of puns, "deminuo" means "to diminish, or make lesser", and has that play on "demi" - demimanus deminutus? Bimanus deminutus? likewise bimanus manucarens has a bit of a ring to it...but there isn't to my knowledge a Latin word encapsulating the concepts both of "having two hands" and "not having four hands".

Although "demi" is pronounced differently, I think...how abut "bipes", with two feet, as an ironic thing?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
15:53 / 18.12.02
Isn't the full Linnaean name for humans Homo sapiens sapiens? With two species names you could perhaps get the idea across more clearly.
 
 
Persephone
16:04 / 18.12.02
Unless you want to go for "dimidio manus", which doesn't really mean anything but is quite a cute pun.

*preening a bit*

Ooh, it would help if we could get one more word... going to look at the rules again...
 
 
CyberChimp
07:50 / 19.12.02
Diamond's point, Lurid, is that by any defition of 'species' (and 'genus' and 'family') other than those which seem to have been devised especially for humans alone, humans are a species of chimpanzee, in exactly the same way that scientists are now coming round to the idea that there are two distinct species of gorilla (Gorilla gorilla and Gorilla beringei, see http://www.berggorilla.de/english/gjournal/texte/20syst.html). Admittedly, as Jensen-Seaman here suggests, we still need "much more theoretical discussion of how to relate genetic differences to taxonomic differences"...which, I suppose, is what we are doing here.

The problem with moving into subspecies, Kit-Cat Club, is that we'd then have to decide which of the two existing chimpanzee species (Pan troglodytes or Pan paniscus) we'd want to split up (eg Pan paniscus paniscus and Pan paniscus bimanus). (And I don't think Lurid will like that at all.)
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:43 / 19.12.02
Its a bit confusing as chimp is used to refer to both the genus and the species. So that it was an important discovery that bonobos are not chimps, except that they also are depending on what you mean. Personally, I think it makes sense to use chimp to refer to the species since using it as a genus harks back to the confusion with bonobos. In that sense, humans aren't chimps just as bonobos aren't chimps (even though they were called pygmy chimps).

In any case, it is much less confusing to refer to the genus Pan.

I'd probably support a reclassification that brings chimps and humans into the same genus, though I think it makes little sense to call that genus "chimpanzee".
 
 
Persephone
12:07 / 19.12.02
Hey, I thought of something else. How about Pan bimaniculus ...Pan, chimp, bi, two, maniculus, little handed. Like homunculus. I have taken the liberty of making manicula into an adjective. So this would be the chimp with the two small hands. Human hands are smaller than chimp hands, aren't they?
 
 
CyberChimp
12:16 / 19.12.02
The name of a species consists of the name of the genus in which the species is classified followed by a second term which is peculiar to the species. You cannot have a 'species' name on its own, since this second (often rather arbitrary) part of the binominal is often shared by species belonging to completely different genera or even families (eg Anemone japonica, Primula japonica, Chaenomeles japonica, etc.

When researchers discovered that bonobos weren't chimps, what they discovered was that they weren't common chimps (up until that point they'd actually thought that they were funny looking members of Pan troglodytes). They were (and are) still chimpanzees in a technical sense, since any species with Pan in its name is a chimpanzee (who knows, scientists may yet discover three more species of chimpanzee).
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:37 / 19.12.02
Fair enough. I guess that clears it up for me. Is there any reason for humans to be reclassified as Pan whatever rather than chimps being Homo...?
 
 
Cat Chant
13:52 / 19.12.02
I suspect the reason, in this case, would be an intervention into Heidegger's humanism where homo implies human in the philosophical sense rather than the purely biological (assuming for the sake of argument and temporarily that such a distinction could be drawn).
 
 
Bill Posters
11:35 / 20.12.02
Hmmmm, I am a little concerned about the whole opposable thumb thing in relation to this discussion. And there's always terms for hoomans which keep 'homo' and stick summat else on the end: A review of Homo Necansis here for example. (It will also annoy Haus and Deva due to a shockingly primatological explanation of Classical Civilisation - all down to testosterone levels and male competition for mates, apparently! ;-) ) There's also a Homo Ludens. I rather like the title of a book I've not read yet called The Symbolising Monkey: it implies that the Big DifferenceTM is that we have culture and semantic cognition (or something, this is OTTOMH) and this is reflected in the differences between the wopping great forebrains in the Brains Previously Known As Homo Sapiens' Brains and all the other primates' brains which are generally much littler in the forebrain dept. But I haven't a clue what the Latin for 'symbolising' is.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:50 / 20.12.02
I suspect the reason, in this case, would be an intervention into Heidegger's humanism where homo implies human in the philosophical sense rather than the purely biological

And so all the more subversive, to make chimps "homo troglodytes".

Hmmmm, I am a little concerned about the whole opposable thumb thing in relation to this discussion

What do you mean?
 
 
Bill Posters
14:12 / 21.12.02
Just that two hands we may have, but they's got opposable thumbs attached, which, I'm told, enable us to, well, use tools for one thing. (Sorry if that was a chimpist thing to say, though.)
 
 
CyberChimp
21:26 / 21.12.02
Hmmm. There are rather a lot of other species with hands and opposable thumbs, and plenty more who use tools. Opposable thumbs are certainly pretty useful, but I wouldn't put too much store by them as an index of human uniqueness.
 
 
grant
13:02 / 20.05.03
A DNA survey is backing this claim, New Scientist reports.

The latest twist in the debate over how much DNA separates humans from chimpanzees suggests we are so closely related that chimps should not only be part of the same taxonomic family, but also the same genus.

The new study found that 99.4 percent of the most critical DNA sites are identical in the corresponding human and chimp genes. With that close a relationship, the two living chimp species belong in the genus Homo, says Morris Goodman of Wayne State University in Detroit.

...Traditionally chimps are classified with the other great apes, gorillas and orangutans, in the family Pongidae, separated from the human family Hominidae. Within Hominidae, most paleoanthropologists now class virtually all hominid fossils in three genera, Homo, Australopithecus, or Ardipithecus.

On the basis of the new study, Goodman would not only put modern humans and all fossils back to the human-chimp divergence into Homo, but would also include the common chimp (Pan troglodytes) and the bonobo (Pan paniscus).

...It is not the first time such a suggestion has been made - in 1991 physiologist and ecologist Jared Diamond called humans "the third chimpanzee". But subsequent genetic comparisons have yielded varying results, depending on how the genotypes are compared.


More at the link.
 
 
Thjatsi
16:10 / 20.05.03
According to the biological species concept chimps and humans are not the same species because they cannot produce viable offspring.

So, I would like an explanation as to why we've decided to switch over to the morphological species concept here.
 
 
grant
17:28 / 20.05.03
Are you sure about that?


I remember a Richard Leakey lecture where he quipped something about chimpanzees and humans being a lot more similar than horses and donkeys. Whether they're similar enough to have viable offspring would be... an interesting experiment.
 
 
grant
17:53 / 20.05.03
Wow. A websearch on this turns up a few oddities....

Here, from the Megafoundation ("we pay gifted people to be gifted!") website:

I wanted to know if it was possible to cross a human being with a chimpanzee and obtain a viable offspring. ... I also knew that the DNA sequences of man and chimpanzee were identical at 99 out of 100 base pairs. The possibilities for a viable cross, therefore, looked reasonably good – good enough at any rate to justify spending some time in a library researching the matter.

...The answer came from an article titled "The Striking Resemblance of High-Resolution G-Banded Chromosomes of Man and Chimpanzee," written by Jorge J. Yunis, Jeffrey R. Sawyer and Kelly Dunham [Science, Vol. 208, 6 June 1980, pp. 1145-8]. These investigators applied a new staining agent called giemsa to the chromosome compliments of man and chimpanzee and made a detailed comparison of their banding patterns. Their new stain was able to resolve more than a thousand bands in the chromosomes of each species, revealing a similarity so close that they found it difficult to account for the phenotypic differences. As part of their article, they provided a diagram of the chromosome comparisons, showing not only an astonishing similarity, but a number of interesting differences as well. Among these differences was the revelation of nine pericentric inversions. This observation provided the answer to my question. Chromosome inversions are known to result in semi-sterility when crosses are made to individuals without the inversion. Since there are nine of these, and since a cross with only one inversion results in semi-sterility, the answer must be: No, it’s not possible to cross a human being with a chimpanzee and obtain a viable offspring.

Sometimes, however, when one is looking for an answer to a trivial question, one stumbles across the answer to a much more important one. That’s what happened in this case. The diagram given in the article clearly reveals the exact genetic mechanism responsible for the evolution of genus Homo, and strongly suggests that this did not take place over hundreds of thousands of years, as is generally believed, but occurred within the span of only three generations.


Which is pretty weird.


The guy goes on to suggest that we could pretty easily rear-engineer Lucy from human genetic material, or make a human out of a chimp.

--------

On the other hand, the Great Apes Project says otherwise:

In fact, we share over 98% of our DNA with chimpanzees; genetically, we may be close enough to produce viable offspring.


But it's a throwaway line in a natural history article, so it's not terribly heavy.

--------

The River Apes" people have this to say about taxonomy and breeding among ape species:

To cut a long story short it will be argued here that Mayr’s (1969) modified definition of the BSC that “Species are groups of interbreeding populations which are reproductively isolated from other such groups” is still as good a definition as we have and it’s emphasis is the one that will be used in this study.

The BSC seems to have stood the test of time despite some problems and criticisms of it putting too much emphasis on reproductive isolation. Sokal and Crovello (1970) for instance, pointed out that if a hybrid of two ‘species’ is able to successfully backcross with either of the two parental populations then it would imply, if the BSC is applied strictly, that the two parental populations must belong to the same species. Bonobos and chimpanzees have been known to have produced viable offspring in captivity (Sommer 2000 pers. comm.) providing evidence that according to strict adherence to BSC they should not be classified as separate species.

The problem appears to be that reproductive isolation is not a binary condition. There are degrees of isolation and a full range of variability between extremes.


-----

That last paragraph is a fancy way of saying that sometimes mules are viable.


-------
-------

As a footnote, I had to share
this bit of filth here
:

Male chimpanzees compete by producing vast quantities of sperm. Their testicles make up about three-tenths of a percent of their total body weight - about ten times that of human males. Since female chimpanzees mate with many different males, the male who produces the most sperm has the best statistical chance of fathering her offspring, and an average ejaculation contains about 600 million sperm (compared to 250 million in humans). A male chimpanzee can also sustain his erection for several hours, thus monopolizing the female and preventing her from mating with other males.

So conducting at least one version of the experiment might have some perks for a plucky volunteer....
 
 
Thjatsi
03:14 / 21.05.03
Nice job Grant!

I think the best way to do this experiment would be through in-vitro fertilization. If you can make it to the neurula stage, I'll be more than happy to reconsider my position.

However, a chimp sex experiment would certainly be interesting.
 
 
grant
17:12 / 28.07.05
So, New Scientist has a lead on a fifth chimp species.

The taxonomy is getting more complicated month by month.

What was the upshot of the original problem in this thread, anyway?

Was the guy able to mount a successful chimp? I mean, argument?
 
 
Cat Chant
09:19 / 29.07.05
Well, he's now Doctor Chimp...
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:33 / 29.07.05
Why would the taxonomic description for humans have to be changed? Why not just change the taxonomic description for chimps?

Is there a specific requirement to change it one way, or the other?

Also, why are humans an "inferior" species of chimpanzees?
 
 
grant
14:40 / 29.07.05
Fewer hands and lesser upper body strength, I suppose.

Plus bonobonos are nicer to each other.
 
 
Evil Scientist
20:28 / 29.07.05
Both true. Arguably our evolutionary development optimised us in other areas. Not inferior, just different is what I'm saying.

As to a new name. I have no grasp of Latin (shocking for a self-professed scientist I know). I'm a proponant of scrapping the taxonomic system itself as being a little too clique-y anyway. Like a secret language so the proles don't start joining in on the science.

Ah, scientific anarchy. Tear it down without any thought of what to put in it's place.

Surely the simplest alteration would be to have chimpanzees designated as Homo troglodytes, or humans as Pan sapiens (as suggested above). Would that work? If not, why not?

...and what about Homo sapiens superior? Oh, won't someone think of the mutants!
 
 
sdv (non-human)
09:12 / 30.07.05
The problem with this is that there is an overlay of supremacy, heirarchy and species in the discussion, reminiscent of those dreadful evolutionary trees-of-life which textbooks used to be full of.I had thought that the raising of difference would question all these assumptions.

Because these three critical errors remain implicit within the discussion then no renaming to something of the order of 'homo faber' or even the more descriptive homo-wants-to-be-god' etc, will correct the misassumptions. Better by far to push the logic-of-difference and assume that on the plane of difference all singularities are equivilent whether they are human or non-human. And consequently contuine to question the unsustainable logic of species...

The issue of species is set to become an irrelevant human concern, another myth which hopefully to fade into insignificance.

And mostly human-mutations are detrimental to human survival not enhancements...

saturday...lovely
s

(I wonder if the problem with neo-darwinists isn't actually that they still try and maintain human supremacy even whilst the logic suggests the opposite.)
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:13 / 30.07.05
But taxonomy provides rather solid evidence for evolution.

the predicted pattern of organisms at any given point in time can be described as "groups within groups", otherwise known as a nested hierarchy. The only known processes that specifically generate unique, nested, hierarchical patterns are branching evolutionary processes.

....

Well-determined phylogenetic trees inferred from the independent evidence of morphology and molecular sequences match with an extremely high degree of statistical significance.

...

When two independently determined trees mismatch by some branches, they are called "incongruent". In general, phylogenetic trees may be very incongruent and still match with an extremely high degree of statistical significance (Hendy et al. 1984; Penny et al. 1982; Penny and Hendy 1986; Steel and Penny 1993). Even for a phylogeny with a small number of organisms, the total number of possible trees is extremely large. For example, there are about a thousand different possible phylogenies for only six organisms; for nine organisms, there are millions of possible phylogenies; for 12 organisms, there are nearly 14 trillion different possible phylogenies (Table 1.3.1; Felsenstein 1982; Li 1997, p. 102). Thus, the probability of finding two similar trees by chance via two independent methods is extremely small in most cases.

...

"Biologists seem to seek the 'The One Tree' and appear not to be satisfied by a range of options. However, there is no logical difficulty in having a range of trees. There are 34,459,425 possible [unrooted] trees for 11 taxa (Penny et al. 1982), and to reduce this to the order of 10-50 trees is analogous to an accuracy of measurement of approximately one part in 10^6."


It tends to be non-scientists rather than "neo-darwinists" who insist that taxonomy must be involved in classifying species as "better" or "worse".

I'm not exactly sure what it means for "all singularities" to be "equivalent", but I think my link may provide a good reason to distrust such a sentiment in this context. That is, it is a creationist argument to deny the plausibility of the boilogical (and non-judgementally hierarchical) classification of species.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
12:26 / 31.08.05
It occurs to me that a rational renaming should reflect the nature of human existance in the spectacle. So I offer the following...

Hence I propose :

homo consumptive - which suggests and confirms the replacing of sentience with mass consumption...

Zygmunt Bauman - suggested recently 'homo eligens'- 'the man choosing, a permenently inpermenent self' (Bauman 2005).

Though I think the former is a better description of the human condition.

s
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:48 / 31.08.05
Although it would be highly inaccurate to call humans non-sentient consumers. Or even to suggest that it is a state that most people aspire to.

Surely you can think of a name that would actually be accepted by people who like humans?
 
 
CyberChimp
10:49 / 01.09.05
How about Pan bimanus.

(Incidentally, picking up a point discussed by grant and Thjatsi (over two years ago!), Colin Groves - who wrote the taxonomic bible that is 'Primate Evolution' (Smithsonian Institute, 2000) - has suggested that it is entirely likely that humans could hybridise with chimpanzees, though the experiment has (still) not, to my knowledge, been attempted. Dawkins has discussed the implications at least twice, in 'Gaps in the Mind' and 'The Word Made Flesh'.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
10:57 / 01.09.05
evil,

Sentient consumers ? Sorry but I see little evidence that post-the-arrival of the spectacle and more recently globalization, that human consumptive behavior can be considered as a sentient and thus deserve the accolade of thoughtful activity.

There is no evidence that humans can curb their individual or group consumptive behavior at all - which is what would be required to gain the name 'sentient consumers'...

I'm rather taken with cyberchimps suggestion of 'Pan bimanus' though...

best
steve
 
 
sdv (non-human)
11:01 / 01.09.05
Evil

sorry - i forgot to add that we are not supposed to like ourselves as humans - but to engage in critique of what it is to be human...

No 'species' (assuming that you believe a universalist concept like that makes sense) that is willfully carrying out the biggest extinction event since the dinosaurs dissapeared should be 'liked' for itself...

steve
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:13 / 01.09.05
Surely you can think of a name that would actually be accepted by people who like humans?

Ah, but you are missing the point, Evil. As sdv makes fairly clear, this isn't about adjusting taxonomy in order to make it more accurate or useful. After all, it isn't hard to get the impression that contributors to the thread are deeply suspicious of taxonomy. Rather, this is a vehicle in which to express a "critique" of humanity - by reclassifying humans as "chimps". As someone with an interest in both taxonomy and ape rights, I think this is a little misguided and I question the assumptions supporting it.
 
  

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