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Comics dogme

 
  

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The Photographer in Blowup
17:42 / 18.12.02
All I can say is that you guys better have some comics actually done to be contemplating so much about what to do with them.

My opinion here is that, having been in this situation before (let's team up and make a loosely-knit group that 'saves' the industry), it got so ensnared by defining it's mission that, lo and behold, absolutely no comics got done. The one that made it long after the fact, lasted on popimage for a few months then disappeared.

If you want to do good comics, I urge you to do just that, share it (somehow, I guess uploading it to a website), THEN discussing how what is produced could be polished. Then you can find a direction and you'd be producing at the same time.

My two cents, but a loaded two as I really want to see this go somewhere rather than debates over super-heros and what's wrong with Ellis/Millar/Morrison, etc.

Ta.


Now here is a good idea

You want to write comics, do exactly that, but stop imposing your opinion on how to save the industry, 'cause it seems to be doing just fine without your help
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
17:54 / 18.12.02
LM Rosa... Not to be dim, but why did you quote so much of what I said and then misunderstand it?

... unless you weren't talking to me at all... which is possible.

I'm not imposing anything. I have no interest in saving the industry, don't understand why you think I do, either.

All I'd like to see (like, not imposing, liking) is for people who don't see what they want on the shelves to make it if they have the patience and the skill to do so, rather than analyzing what is wrong and how to best change it.
 
 
sleazenation
18:21 / 18.12.02
My this has got rather fun hasn't it.

I hadn't much of a plan what i wanted to see out of this thread when i started it - i figured a manifesto could form a sort of a challenge that would eventually lead to *gasp* some kinds of comics being created.

Some people liked the idea, some hated it - hey, such is life, but it did get me thinking about what Mr six said If you want to do good comics, I urge you to do just that, share it (somehow, I guess uploading it to a website), THEN discussing how what is produced could be polished.

So comics cocks on the table then? Remember folks it isn't size that counts.

Mr Six, LM rosa, since you two have been most vociferous in your criticism of manifestoes over creating comics, and since Mr six already has 3 comics done do you want to start?

This could be like the poetrail of the old days but with comics
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
18:23 / 18.12.02
I'd be more than happy to start.

Just remember... I never said they were any good!

 
 
sleazenation
18:30 / 18.12.02
cool - i've started a new thread for thise very purpose if you want to post links and stuff there...
 
 
Nelson Evergreen
19:11 / 18.12.02
There's that sorted out then. May I contribute a footnote? These should be the first two points of any aesthetic manifesto:

Rule 1 - Do your utmost to create something that makes you and as many other people as possible go "Wow."

Rule 2 - All rules from here on in are to be taken with a stern pinch of salt.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
01:35 / 19.12.02
If there was one big myth that I wish that I could kill, it's the belief among way too many people that Alan Moore is the be-all, end-all of intelligent comics writing. I wish I could kill that myth so, so, so, so badly.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
02:58 / 19.12.02
I don't think anyone here said or even thinks that, and anyway, what for? I mean, that particular myth, if it indeed exists, is pretty minor and surely not worth a whole lot of attention. Unless you're just being snarky. Instead, let's deal with the myth that says that an artistic manifesto should be designed to unravel or exceed the artistic manifestos that came before it. Or even the one that says myths should be killed.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
03:53 / 19.12.02
I don't think manifestos are there to say, "This is what art is really, and everything before or after is inferior." I think they're there to make the artistic pendulum visible--hence the unraveling and exceeding. Not because what came before was bad, but because what came before is the ground to the next movement's figure.

I happen to like rules because when you have unlimited freedom, like a piece of blank white paper that stretches to infinity, it's hard to know where to start. I like having a flaw in the paper, or an edge, or a paint splatter. For me, it's better to start with an arbitrary rule and see what comes out of it; if that rule doesn't work, you come up with a new arbitrary rule.
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
07:36 / 19.12.02
LM Rosa... Not to be dim, but why did you quote so much of what I said and then misunderstand it?

... unless you weren't talking to me at all... which is possible.

I'm not imposing anything. I have no interest in saving the industry, don't understand why you think I do, either.


I'm not saying you're imposing ideas, actually your idea was the best i've seen since this thread started.

I was talking about the other guys who think they have the perfect solution on how to save comics, but just talk and discuss their precious nine rules, and do nothing else.

You guys want to write comics, then stop talking, begin working and prove what you're worth.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
11:35 / 19.12.02
Understood, Tommy, but I think, though it seems to rule pop culture, the pendulum image is a bad one. A 'manifesto' might include some things that 'unravel and exceed' but it shouldn't be about doing the opposite of what's now done or stating things we're sick of. Swinging back and forth just makes you either inscrutable or sterile. Let's make it a base to build on or push up from, instead, or an environment to evolve in. Let's expose ourselves to influences other that market forces.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
07:37 / 20.12.02
Let's expose ourselves to influences other that market forces.
Whoa there is a statement.
 
 
dlotemp
23:17 / 20.12.02
L.M. Rosa wrote -
>>I was talking about the other guys who think they have the perfect solution on how to save comics, but just talk and discuss their precious nine rules, and do nothing else.

You guys want to write comics, then stop talking, begin working and prove what you're worth. <<

I'd like to point out that moriarty has been organizing a creative comics project over on another thread. Several Barbelithers have contributed already, including myself. So some of us have already tried to "put up or shut up" so to speak.

Furthermore, while I think sarcasm can be healthy when dealing with rules, I recall an exchange by two modern American composers who were composing a song at the keyboard.

"How long is it?"

"Around two and a half minutes. Three-ish. Just keep working on what you have. It's great."

"No. It's not three-ish or around anything. Give me the time limit. Only when I know how long it has to be does it become excite me."

Dogmas and manifestos can be very useful conceptual constructs that aid, and torture, the artist. The poet Rilke changed his whole style after he became friends with Rodin, who practiced a mercilous and disciplined work ethic. Let's not forget that dogmas and manifestos can excite.

Please pardon those of us who are working creatively as we discuss our nine rules.
 
 
moriarty
04:10 / 21.12.02
Bam!

I wasn't going to muddy the waters by posting anymore, but dlotemp pretty much encapsulated one aspect of how I feel. Talking about making comics or writing a manifesto and actually creating them need not be mutually exclusive. Some of us can juggle both, thanks.

The thing is, I was just arguing about this privately with Perse, and in way of my defense I gave her an example of the kind of manifesto (actually more a set of restrictions) I've been thinking of. I didn't want to make it public because that involves some sort responsibility on my part, and I'm already hip deep in the Shifter project. I think many people here are in the same boat. I'm completely grateful to all those who've stepped up to the plate on the Shifter project, and it ticks me off that someone would dare call people out without even the briefest of searches to see if anyone already is creating comics on this board.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
06:05 / 21.12.02
What they said.

Additionally, I wanted to recant what I said about "only doable in comics" as a vital part of a manifesto. I got to thinking about the kind of talking heads comic I would accuse of wanting to be a play, but with quality of line work as an essential part of the message. And how two circles with dots for eyes saying the lines would be completely different from realistically drawn characters.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
07:20 / 21.12.02
Jeez, guys!

I walk away for this thread for a few days and come back and it's like trench warfare!

Look, the points I brought up weren't even meant to be a manifesto; I just wanted to raise some ideas and see if people agreed with them. You'll notice that it was only at the end of the list that I proposed some kind of Dogme-like manifesto. I just wanted to throw my ideas in and see if anybody else had other ideas, and get them together and see where they overlapped–and maybe, maybe then we could come together and make some kind of manifesto. But come on, chill! All the suddent people are talking Rilke!

Oh, and I have done several comics and am working on comics for publication, OK?
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
02:28 / 22.12.02


If that is directed toward me,... Ahem, I said, I hope you're doing comics. I wasn't being argumentative, I was actually really hoping. I've seen the Shifter and think it's a great project. All I suggested was that energy be directed toward production rather than organization.

Go on doing what you like, it was only a suggestion. I'd never presume to tell anyone what to do on this board, let alone anyone do it as well! What am I , Anthony friggin Ainley?

I'm just carrying around (like I have said) a bit of baggage from two previous such plots where talented people talked about how great it would be to do our own thing and be succesful at it and watched it not only go down the drain but also got cut out of the finished product after I produced three scripts that never got done (nowadays I just draw my own). It would pain me to see something similar happen here not because my opinion wasn't listened to, but because it would be such a waste of talent and energy.

But if I'm wrong, carry on and do what you obviously know is right. I'm not trying to caste judgement, I just want to see some good comics and if they're done by people who want to do them, I think it'll be stellar (and not Ultimate Great Lake Ultimates).

Cheers.
 
  

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