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The effect of Role playing games on modern literature

 
  

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eye landed
09:01 / 18.12.02
No, that's broadening the topic too much, because video games are about interacting with a world created by somebody else, while RPGs are about interacting with other people while creating a world.

By the way, I define a role-playing game as necessarily including a referree, whether it is only books and dice instead of a person, or only a person rather than books or dice.

What I meant by "primal" (way up there) was that role-playing games are a community activity involving subconscious, symbolic communication. Depending on the character or setting I create, I communicate to my compatriots indirectly about myself and my worldview, just as I would if I told them a story. In an RPG, they communicate back simultaneously, creating a complex network of chaotic interaction, while in literature the process is mostly linear (albeit more global). It is exactly this web of intercommunication that gives us that feeling of social "fun." Fun can be gained through conversation or other mediums, but RPGs provide a framework just like the Superbowl or Cafe Philosophy do. This is perhaps the "fun with a purpose" mentioned by CatJerome.

With regard to role-playing games' effect on my own literature (both my writing and my reading), I think they influence it towards genres. I write a "fantasy story" then I write a "horror story." I think this is an example of iconoclast's persistent point, in that it stifles my creativity for writing. However, I wish that R. A. Salvatore (Drizzt author) had never given up his dice for a word processor. Perhaps the world is better off without poor authors like myself and Mr. Salvatore trying to get their work published, and rather blowing off our creativity on our easily-amused friends. Hence, the influence in the bad sectors of both fields that I also mentioned (way up there).

I've had RPG experiences that felt like a transcendent artistic creation, but usually it's boring and frustrating. I suspect the situation would be the same trying to create anything with a basically random group of people. I don't usually get to handpick all my collaborators in a role-playing game, and I think that is why they so often turn out poorly.

In semi-defense of White Wolf, their "storytelling aids" used to be worthwhile. However, they fell victim to the universal curse of RPG producers. They used to sell materials with which to keep your communal story somewhat consistent. Then they figured out that they could make a lot of money by selling mediocre stories in massive hardcover books. Now they don't put all the necessary information to keep a story consistent in one book; they spread it out so you have to keep buying. By doing that, they made their whole line of books totally useless, and now they are worse than TSR was in the 90s.
 
 
Cat Chant
14:22 / 18.12.02
(This is a gorgeous, gorgeous thread, by the way)

Sorry to pop in and quote, but the discussion about the particular form of creativity that role-playing games produce (or produce without producing, or produce without writing) reminded me very strongly of this bit of Roland Barthes:

This faculty - this decision - to elaborate an ever-new speech out of brief fragments, each of which is both intense and mobile, uncertainly located, is what, in romantic music, we call the Fantasy... Fantasieren: at once to imagine and to improvise, in short, to hallucinate, ie, to produce the novelistic without constructing a novel. Even the lieder cycles do not narrate a love story, but only a journey: each moment of this journey is in a sense turned back on itself, blind, closed to any general meaning, to any notion of fate, to any spiritual transcendence: in short, a pure wandering, a becoming without finality.

I'm also reminded rather of his distinction between "the music one listens to" and "the music one plays", and his whole project of recuperating amateur production. A better analogy than novel-writing for role-playing might be an amateur band or quartet, playing music that will never "produce" a performance of recordable/marketable/ professional standard - but then that's not the point.
 
 
iconoplast
17:46 / 18.12.02
Oh, nice point.

So RPGs are like cover bands. Or like... Okay - I've often complained that musicians, when they want to play but don't feel inspired, can interpret another musician's work. I.E., they can just play something they know but didn't write. But writers don't have that tertiary position - writing's either 'ex nihilo' or nihil at all.

Maybe that's where RPGs fit it. You want to write, but you don't want to create.
 
 
Tezcatlipoca
18:55 / 18.12.02
Hmmm...good points, both. Now if give it a little more thought, I think part of the appeal of Roleplay Games is that they perhaps represent a kind of 'Dehydrated World - Just Add Ideas' for RPGers. Whilst I still disagree that the act of running - or to a certain extent participating in - an RPG doesn't qualify as a creative act, RPGs do offer a snap-together template of ready made guidelines on which you can start building.
 
 
Persephone
19:48 / 18.12.02
You want to write, but you don't want to create.

Or maybe... you want to create, but you don't want to produce.
 
 
w1rebaby
20:14 / 18.12.02
RPGs do offer a snap-together template of ready made guidelines on which you can start building.

To a greater or lesser degree. Buy a supplement set in a pre-designed world and play with pre-generated characters, and your creative input is limited to the actual interpretation - improv theatre at best. Design the whole thing yourself or let it develop through play and you are doing a lot more; outside guidelines are limited to the form of gaming.

Let's face it, there is no such thing as writing a novel ex nihilo either, with or without RPGs.

you want to create, but you don't want to produce

Yeah, I like this. Possibly, "you don't want to produce permanently".
 
 
Cat Chant
20:56 / 18.12.02
I'm sort of down on production (or permanent production) at the moment, actually: I'm reading Hannah Arendt's book The Human Condition in which she talks about how dangerous it is to see all human action and/or labour as producing fixed, material objects (such as novels), which is why I like the idea of gaming as a Barthesian "producing the novelistic without constructing a novel".
 
 
Persephone
01:26 / 19.12.02
I'm rather pleased, if I do say so myself. This is something that's been bugging me for a while, and it's gotten acute with the DIY zeitgeist that seems to be floating around the board of late. Cf DIY culture: what is the point?, Comics dogme, and others. Because there's this definite friction between what I'm calling creativity on the one hand and productivity on the other hand in the discussions that have ensued. Which is to say, some people seem to be saying that something that's not productive isn't creative... which I've only been able to rebel and not really defend against.

Until now! Until someone shoots holes in me!

Because I do think that's dangerous. I almost think, well... if you wanted to tear down Rome, then you could do worse than to start here. But I suppose that's another thread. But anyway it seems sort of clear to me now that productivity is a different thing, not to mention ascendent. I mean, the government doesn't release any economic reports on creativity. I think even this idea of permanence is endemic to productivity --do you know what I mean, productivity *would* value permanence. Creativity wouldn't, necessarily. I'm not talking about the actual meaning of these words as words, but as terms contingent to this discussion.

And I can feel myself about to haul feminism into this, so I think I had better take myself away before I get into real trouble...

*wanders off muttering to self*
 
 
cusm
02:35 / 19.12.02
The emphasis on production that Iconoplast seems hung up on really isn't the focus for most gamers. You're not having the game as a means to produce anything tangible. Really, that's not the point of the exercise at all. Its an experience, and that can't be bottled in any way that will not diminish it. It is the experience, the reality you live through in the course of the game, and the person you become for it, that is the focus.

And yes, this exercise is one of using a product created by another, unless the players and game master are creating something completely new on their own, which some do. For the most part, running any game out of a book is a bit more like watching the movie than making it in that way. After all, most folks watch a lot more movies than than they make. Published RPGs are products. The creativity and literature were produced for the book, and the works created by the players are derivitave of that at best.

So the real product in RPGs (if you want to look for that) is the books themselves. If you have the creativity to design your own world, one alternative to writing a novel, which can only be experienced in a linear fashion, is to write an RPG, which can be experienced in a very open ended manner subjective to each person who participates in the setting and characters you drew up to describe your world. Its just a differnet form of media. Your readers interact with your world, and sometimes even contribute to it. The RPG industry is a small animal, and you betcha developers listen to fans about how to make the world a better place for your characters to live in. Often game writers start out as fans themselves, you know.

But I suppose the biggest difference is that you are not writing the story so much as the world stories can take place in. The world may well suggest a story, and strongly at that, but it is still open to where and how you interact with the setting. In this way, an RPG is literature written from the abstrct perspective where everything is given but the plot. That's up to the folks who actually run the game.


Anyway, as to the original question, I'd have to say the works created by the RPG industry have mostly affected genre. As understanding of worlds trickles out into the public awareness, other works of literature can be based upon them with less supporting background, as the setting is already understood by the reader. Or you have cases like Buffy, where the world is just a hair off from the World of Darkness in too many ways. White Wolf has had a noticable effect on the modern monster horror genre, I'll have to say, like D&D and similar games have helped develop fantasy.

I would think this is more the contribution than the creation of literature itself. At least, unless you count the RPG books themselves. There are some RPG books I would consider literature, albeit an advant guard format, though this is still not a popular view of them, yet.
 
 
Cat Chant
08:58 / 19.12.02
And I can feel myself about to haul feminism into this, so I think I had better take myself away before I get into real trouble...

Only take yourself away if you are going in the direction of a new thread! New thread, Persephone, please - I've been wanting to talk about this for ages! If you don't start it, I will...
 
 
grant
15:36 / 19.12.02
I never saw that much difference between RPGs and improv theater games.

Is it art if the creators are only doing it for themselves and not an audience? I'd say yes. But that's not very productive of me....
 
 
Persephone
16:28 / 19.12.02
Nnnn... *fear* ...okay Deva, I will try.
 
 
cusm
00:24 / 20.12.02
I never saw that much difference between RPGs and improv theater games.

Having played the Questions Game in a Sabbat LARP as a game of instinct, I must concur.
 
 
w1rebaby
00:31 / 20.12.02
Is it art if a shipwrecked man makes up stories for himself, and dies without telling them to anyone?
 
 
cusm
01:57 / 20.12.02
If the Mona Lisa were burned before anyone ever saw it, was it still art?

That which was, was. It is not less so just because you missed it.
 
 
GRIM
04:02 / 21.12.02
I write RPG books semi-professionally.

What have they done for modern literature?

Very little aside from providing settings and archetypes, largely for generic fantasy.

RPGs are set within genres created by TV/Movies/Books rarely do they create their own world of whole cloth and create something new.

Some games i would classify as greats and worthy of being thought of as literature.

Mechanical Dream, Paranoia, Nobilis, Tribe 8.

Most however are not.

RPGs dabbled with being 'worthy' like comics did with the 'graphic novel'.

it didn't work too well, so now we're back to populist pulp, look at D20.
 
 
eye landed
01:52 / 22.12.02
Is it more creative to write a novel based on a pre-existing game setting, or to make up a new setting and use it only to play with your friends? The more productive activity is obvious, but the creative one is less so. Both activities must be creative, and their "level of creativity" depends on their content rather than on their form.
 
 
invisible_al
11:01 / 23.12.02
I have to say I don't recognise a lot of the experiences people have with roleplaying games here, in my experience roleplaying and live-roleplaying is nothing but creation. The roleplaying game may be assembled at first by the ref, but once the players and their characters start interacting with it it mutates very quickly.

I don't know that many gamemasters who use a setting and game as it's written and even if they do in a long running game once again things change and the story evolves out of the starting point the books give.

In some games even the gamesmaster isn't the main guiding hand, Ars Magica has multiple storytellers and the players play multiple characters. I've seen a background of a small village in Cumbria evolve out of the co-operative efforts of 5 obsessives all throwing their ideas into the mix and seeing what happens once the story gets started. I've also seen a ref be genuinely suprised at how the characters he's invented react to events and players, in a way I've heard many writers comment on.

And if you're after production, what about drawings of characters and places (not just hex-maps) in character diaries, letters, myths and stories.

I've got more experience with Live-roleplaying and IMHO it is a form of experimental theatre, it's not often Art but I've seen games that come close to a really immersive experience. It's not something that can be captured by videoing it, but is live performance ever something that can be captured?

But I'll agree with GRIM in that some games can be art, but most aren't . Tribe 8 and Nobilis I would agree with and perhaps even Paranoi.

As for the effect it has on Modern Literature *sigh* If I see one more badly written Tolkien rip off I may go postal, the D&D novel is not something to be proud of. But you could also blame the rotting corpse of Tolkien for that as well I suppose.
 
 
Quantum
10:52 / 12.11.03
To briefly revive this thread, I have to say that the Matrix trilogy, (while obviously not literature) seems heavily influenced by RPGs, specifically online games:

A group of scruffy geeks in bad jumpers grubbing around being oppressed in a dingy 'real world'? Who spend a lot of time in a fantasy world where they're really cool and have funky skills and powers, and have to save the world? There's some parallels there you have to admit... and of course they've nicked the cyberpunk style over substance motif (which of course came from Gibson's literature, and so the vicious circle continues)
 
 
pachinko droog
16:19 / 12.11.03
I think you could definitely argue about the effect that games, in general, have had on literature, especially experimental literature. One only has to look at say, various games concocted by the Surrealists ("Exquisite Corpse"-stories) to get proof of that, or the whole cut-up genre of Burroughs/Gysin which employs the element of randomness to the equation. Maybe not explicit games as such, but certainly game-like elements.

Other examples:

There's the book "Hopscotch" by Julio Cortazar, whose chapters are meant to be read in any order one wishes.

Mark Danielewski's "House of Leaves", which is a whole topic unto iteslf...

Doug Ruskoff's "Bull" with its added footnotes atop footnotes from online contributers.

That really goes into the fold of added reader participation though...But straight up roleplaying? I'm at a bit of a loss. (I agree with you about the influence on The Matrix, though.)

Well, there's always The Invisibles I suppose.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
00:05 / 13.11.03
I believe that Last Unicorn games created roleplaying material that was good literature. (Aria etc.)
The intricate background to Harn is also excellent although of course it pales in comparison to history.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
00:48 / 13.11.03
oh and Unknown Armies which i think of as an Invisibles rpg.

...

Why Fantasy and Why Now? by R. Scott Bakker. (he's a doctor of philosophy and author of The Darkness that Comes Before.)

...

A friend of mine, who's a solicitor, swears that roleplaying helped him with advocacy.
 
 
Quantum
09:47 / 13.11.03
My best friend's a barrister, and keen roleplayer- he says that and Philosophy makes advocacy easy.

Dream Park by Larry Niven is set in an RPG theme park of the future, and he uses the background of LARPers fighting through an adventure (hologram swords, SFX etc) to offset a murder mystery. Top stuff, followed by the Barsoom Project set in the same world.

Choose your own adventure books (fighting fantasy) have started to influence modern literature a little (unless they count as literature themselves) toward more reader participation, as Pachinko Droog says. I think it's unlikely RPGs will ever have much of an influence on literature proper, but on cinema, TV and games they have more of an impact (e.g. Buffy, Underworld, the entire RPG computer game genre).
Maybe..
 
 
cusm
21:00 / 13.11.03
Dream Park made a decent RPG, too
 
 
Captain Zoom
09:58 / 14.11.03
(Maybe re-posted, I'm writing as I really ought to be leaving for work and haven't read the whole thread)

I think that it's undeniable that the Call of Cthulhu RPG has kept Lovecraft's works, and those of his contemporaries, more in the spotlight than they would have been without the game. I know they're technically not modern literature, or literature at all depending on your definition. However, there have been all the Chaosium reprints of cthuloid fiction, and the Delta Green series which is directly copped from an RPG universe.

Zoom.
 
 
eye landed
00:34 / 15.11.03
Since posting in this thread, I've noticed a few works of literature with an RPG influence.

First, Neal Stephanson's Snow Crash, for the reasons Quantum mentioned for The Matrix, as well as for the style (which the Matrix avoided). This novel was episodic, and mostly involved characters with well-defined abilities and resources solving obvious problems in variably inventive ways. Character development happened almost entirely through history and action, not through exposition. The novel was also very syncretic with its genres. While overtly cyberpunk, it included fantasy, war, archeology, neurolinguistics...I think many people have read it so I won't continue.

Tarantino's Kill Bill is even stronger with regard to syncretism, and it reminded me of an RPG for the other stated reasons as well. Both works also gave the impression of being created for an insular community of well-informed consumers who would recognise the setting (cyberpunk for the former, and chop-socky and spaghetti-western for the latter) It helped that there were swords involved in both. In my opinion, you can't have an RPG without at least one sword in it. (Pirates of the Carribean had a little bit of this quality, but its sloppy narrative and empty story make it harder to analyze interestingly.)

I suspect Stephanson is/was a roleplayer (though Tarantino seems less likely). I don't doubt that his gaming experiences informed his novels. It's harder to define than the previous points brought up in this thread (like genre-ation). His novels have a quality that a roleplayer probably recognizes, but non-roleplayers can enjoy them without noticing anything amiss. Luckily, he writes good novels.

I'd also like to note that I read game settings that I rarely or never play. White Wolf's Exalted is one. I've criticised WW for gouging their customers with expensive books, but when I can get them for free online (illegally), it is quite a fascinating way to watch an extremely complex story unfold. I'd say that roleplaying products are (often) literature, and I think their popularity as such will only rise. I think creating stories from a set of charts and rules is something only a few isolated "geeks" can enjoy for very long (guilty!), but playing a character in a preexisting world could really be the "next big thing" in literature. It's like performing Hamlet as a shrewd politician, or even playing the non-existent pirate battle or Yorrick's death scene. It's not hollow like a choose-your-own adventure book, because you have total freedom. But it's different from starting from scratch. It's somewhere between creation and interpretation

Plus, there's the whole postmodern aspect of no product (already discussed). RPGs bring up the issue of how we judge art. Popular culture currently demands a product that can be reproduced and sold, but the isolationist academic art world gave that up long ago. RPGs may be pop culture's way of catching up.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:56 / 15.11.03
Barring Kill Bill, this seems to be primarily a discussion about modern literature and RPGs. As such, might I suggest it move to the Books section? It may benefit from another audience?
 
 
eye landed
04:29 / 16.11.03
If nothing else, we can discuss why RPGs are more closely linked with books than with other forms of media.
 
 
Leap
11:47 / 20.11.03
Its probably because the geeks that play RPGs as a rule dont get invited out to the movies

Ok quantum, open fire
 
 
Quantum
13:45 / 20.11.03
It's tough call between Books or Films & TV don't you think? The move seems to be toward the effect of RPGs on cinema, but your call- not the Headshop, anyway..
Leap, we just go to the cinema without you

Stephenson has his main character in Cryptonomicon admit his RPG roots and show his girlf his ethnic group (collectible card game players, brave man) so I suspect he has that background- his writing certainly indicates it.
Kill Bill is less RPG and more gorefest, Tarantino's geekiness is based on cinema not RPGs, although the symptoms are similar.
 
 
Leap
14:01 / 20.11.03
So geeks go in geek groups; perhaps I am just not geeky enough to fit into a geek group and thus go to the cinema with (fellow) RPGers and have to go with mundanes instead

[side note: What's the collective noun for geeks?!]

Back on track, considering the biggest impact on the biggest RPG was LOTR on DnD, I guess the whole point is moot anyway
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:30 / 20.11.03
Books, Movies, Head Shop or Conversation, kittens. Your shout. Any ideas?
 
 
eye landed
05:54 / 21.11.03
Why not leave the thread here? It seems to have established itself without offending anyone. The denizens of the Books or Movies forums might feel threatened if you set the precendent that discussions of RPGs will happen in their forum. Maybe you should rename Comics to "Counterculture Media" and put it there. (You shouldn't actually do that.)

LOTR brings up an interesting question: how did the RPGs (D&D in particular) influence the movies? Is anyone involved in the LOTR movies a roleplayer? Was the fact kept in mind that a huge portion of the core audience would be roleplayers? Is it even possible that the influence of D&D on the movies could be noticable, considering that D&D is so heavily informed by the books?

And since we're branching out into literature besides books, what about the influence of RPGs on heavy metal?
 
 
Quantum
07:58 / 21.11.03
(I vote move to Movies, groovy movers, it's not about where to put RPG conversations just what's appropriate to the Headshop)

LOTR brings up an interesting question: how did the RPGs (D&D in particular) influence the movies
Um, not even a little bit (ever seen the D&D film? so appallingly bad my eyes wanted to suicide) LotR is as faithful as Jackson can make it to the books considering time constraints and producer pressures (and maybe cinematic flow). There is barely any trace of subsequent fantasy works in there, the films are more like the Ted Nasmith illustrations than anything else.
I think they deliberately avoided any influence from the genre LotR spawned in case it pissed off the Tolkien fans (many of whom despise roleplaying).
 
 
Quantum
08:00 / 21.11.03
the influence of RPGs on heavy metal?
What, apart from Bolt Thrower?
 
  

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