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Am I disgrace to my Feminist Principles?

 
 
Space,Love
12:56 / 25.08.01
I'm not sure whether I should be posting this here, or in The Conversation, but never mind. I'm kind of new around here, but this has been on my mind for a while.

The heading is a little provocative, but sums up the essence of how my brain is wheeling right now. I've been doing a lot of thinking and soul-searching lately, and I'm not sure I like what I'm discovering. I was brought up by a pretty strong feminist. I guess a lot of people of our generation were. I had little contact with my father after my parents split up, and I guess that's the same as a lot of other people too.

Sometimes I think I get involved with men because what I really want is something to replace the father I never had. Sometimes.

It's not like I don't agree with the tenets that say I don't need a man to define who I am, it's that I don't seem to be able to follow them. I like it when men are attracted to me, I like that it makes me feel as if I really exist and am worthwhile. I don't like that I need this approval to feel like that. I don't seek the same approval from females. Sure, I want to be liked by people, period, but it's usually when I get the attention from men that I feel like I am
something.

I realise how stupid this must sound. I've been raised to believe that I don't need to find my worth in other peoples' opinions, especially not in men's, but here I am, still seeking my worth in men.

People are often surprized that I have a lot of male friends, and I think part of it is that I like to surround myself with people who aren't threatened by me, the way other women are. My friends get to feel like they're special, because they get attention from me, a chick. And I get to feel special because I surround myself with guys who like me. I mean, they almost always like me at some point. Vice-versa too. And yes, that gets kind of messy sometimes. Sometimes the other guys get jealous. Sometimes I get jealous when I see my friends with other girls. It's stupid if we want each other to be happy, because we always end up making each other miserable and hurting each other. We know why we do it, and yet we do it anyway.

And I still seek their approval, even when I know I've hurt them.

Why do we do that? Is it just a girl thing, or do guys do it too?

Uh, this is kind of rambly. I'll try and make more sense in my next post.

[ 25-08-2001: Message edited by: Space,Love ]
 
 
Cherry Bomb
14:56 / 25.08.01
Space,love -

Might I say that you are a brave lady to make this admission.

First off, I don't think you should feel that bad that although you know you don't need a man to make you happy on an intellectual level, you feel quite differently on an emotional level. It's really good that you are even aware of it - trust me, awareness of an issue that you're not necessarily proud of is the first step towards conquering it.

Also, remember that it IS a challenge to be a woman in this society and NOT feel that way on some level. Which doesn't mean you can't get over it, or move beyond it, or whatever, but that message has been taught to you in subtle and not-subtle ways since you were a little girl. It's kinda like, to think about the fat thread for a moment, you may KNOW that it's OK to be whatever size are, but that doesn't necessarily stop you from a desire to look like Liz Hurley. So don't be too hard on yourself.

I totally relate to where you are coming from. I used to feel similarly - though it took me a while to piece that together; it was rather unconscious. What really helped me was - corny and cheesy as it sounds - figuring out who I was and what i really wanted, and learning to love myself more.

Also, hey, who doesn't like to be admired? Well, I'm a vain attention hound, so naturally I love it.

Finally I suggest you take a look at why you think girls have a hard time being friends with you, or vice-versa. Though I've always had lots of girlfriends, I have nearly always been able to become good friends with the girl who says "I just don't like being friends with girls. All my friends are guys," etc.

It doesn't surprise me too much that this might be an issue for you in light of the fact that you want a man's approval. Other girls are competition. Not trying to hurt your feelings or anything, just analyzing the situation. To become friends with the girl who doesn't have girl friends, my first step is always to diffuse the competitiveness she feels towards me, and let her know that I'm not trying to compete with her at all. It always works.

Anyway, guess that's it for now. And hey, don't feel bad - it's better to be aware than not, trust me.
 
 
Jamieon
14:56 / 25.08.01
Ummm, you don't sound weird to me at all. There's a big difference between abstract ideas (like feminism) and lived experience.

One can try to apply the tenets of one's belief system to one's life, but everyone comes unstuck sometimes.

And where in feminism does it say you're not allowed to enjoy, or be made to feel wanted by, the opposite sex? Just don't let it define your life, that's all.

I'm male and if a nice female says something nice to me it really makes my day, too.

Why get so hung up about it?

Oh yeah, and one more thing:

People like to go on about how they don't/shouldn't need other people, etc. to feel good about themselves, but this is invariably bollocks - Ricky Lake psychology at its worst.

"Hey, Guy....I'm in love with me!"

Toss. Everyone's relationship with themselves is much more complicated than love/hate, and is, in part, defined by our relationships with other people. Try and find the line where YOU end and the OTHER begins.

See.

Impossible.

[ 25-08-2001: Message edited by: runt ]
 
 
SMS
22:36 / 25.08.01
Both the Cherry Bomb and runt's replies sound good to me.

You do, I think, biologically need to be part of a larger social organism than just yourself, and, of course, one of the ways to do this is the intimate relationships. But if you feel that this kind of thing is taking up too much of your focus, perhaps one thing to do would be to give it up for a time. Tell yourself that, for a year, you won't get involved with anyone, even if you feel there is an attraction between the two of you. This might help you to think of yourself as filling other roles than "the admired."

But the jealousy thing. You know, I've had this problem in excess before. I'm not saying "once I was jealous, but have conquered it," but I haven't driven myself mad over it in quite a while. And all I can say about it is that I kind of let jealous feelings pass. I try not to give then life by becoming actual thoughts, since I know the thoughts aren't really rational anyway. That's close to what I do, anyway. Experiment with your mind.
 
 
Cop Killer
03:55 / 26.08.01
I like it when males are attracted to me too...
It's all very simple, if you are attracted to men, it only makes sense that you want them to be attracted to you; and when they are attracted to you, you get happy cuz that's what you want. Maybe there's some fish out there that really want bicycles...
 
 
Cherry Bomb
15:13 / 26.08.01
Hey you know, for what it's worth, last night I was at a party with a girlfriend, and this gent was hitting on me alllll night long. I was not interested in him at all, but he was entertaining and so I hung out with him for most of the evening. As I said to my friend, it was a total egostroke. I mean, hey, it's nice having someone spend a good few hours telling you how beautiful you are, how sexy you are, etc. etc. The guy tried again and again to get me to go home with him but I was just really not interested in that way. So we gave him a ride home and I gave him his number and I said maybe I'd give him a chance to get his ass kicked in a game of electronic bowling with me. But probably not.

I don't feel this was a betrayal of anything. It was fun and entertaining, and again, enjoyed the egostroke. I think the problem is when you feel like you NEED male attention to feel good about YOURSELF.
 
 
mondo a-go-go
23:19 / 26.08.01
hmm..interesting thread, just found it. not sure what i can add to it in this state of the night -- nothing constructive, for sure.

will try to come back to it.
 
 
Ierne
12:35 / 27.08.01
People are often surprized that I have a lot of male friends, and I think part of it is that I like to surround myself with people who aren't threatened by me, the way other women are. – Space,Love

This smacks a bit of transference to me. It sounds more like you are threatened by other women, which grates against the feminist concepts you were raised with, so you turn it around and say that other women are intimidated by you. I suspect they may be more irritated than intimidated.

I'm not sure how feminism was dealt with in your family, Space,Love. Where I come from it was about treating men and women as PEOPLE, not these gender-segregated halves that require "completion". I was raised to believe that humanity came in various forms, and these diverse types should be treated equally as humans. (The myth of the "man-hating feminist" is just that, a myth used to perpetuate inequality between people.) Granted, Society disagrees violently with what I was raised to believe, and it gets harder and harder to stick with my initial principles, but I keep at it.

My friends get to feel like they're special, because they get attention from me, a chick. And I get to feel special because I surround myself with guys who like me. I mean, they almost always like me at some point. Vice-versa too. And yes, that gets kind of messy sometimes. – Space,Love

I'll bet it does. It's always painful to realize someone's sole interest in you is your gender. If these blokes were women, you wouldn't give them the time of day, and that's fucked up.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
16:25 / 27.08.01
Ierne, I think your comments are somewhere between fuckin' harsh and spot-on. But as another woman who prefers to hang out with guys, I have to say it's not always about getting them interested sexually. As you say, there are lots of diverse types of people - why assume that the male-female relationship in these circumstances isn't a mentally challenging, friendly thing? That being said, I'll be the first to admit that I sometimes have trouble dealing with the competition if one of my male friends starts dating someone else. So there you have it; I'm a walking contradiction, just like everyone else here.

Sometimes these topics make me long for the days when marriage was an economic arrangement, and love wasn't always expected to be part of it. Takes the pressure off.
 
 
Ierne
17:35 / 27.08.01
But as another woman who prefers to hang out with guys, I have to say it's not always about getting them interested sexually. As you say, there are lots of diverse types of people - why assume that the male-female relationship in these circumstances isn't a mentally challenging, friendly thing? – wembley

I never even mentioned sex in my post.
So who's assuming?
 
 
FinderWolf
18:48 / 27.08.01
The best thing about your post is that you are becoming aware of patterns in yourself which you may decide are potentially unhealthy (i.e. seeking all your worth in another, as opposed to 'I'm good with me and this relationship is just a terrific added benefit, icing on the cake' and the sharing of two complete individuals) and which you might want to work on.

You know, sometimes I think the Freudian stuff is BS (the whole thing where heterosexual women's relationships with men are determined mostly by their relationship with their father, and men's relationships with women determined by how it was with their mother), and other times I really think there's a lot to it.

When I notice a pattern that almost all of my girlfriends have had poor relationships with their father, most of them lost their father when they were little kids, most of them were previously in abusive relationships with men, raped, have huge intimacy problems, etc., it tells me not only something about these women, but a lot about ME and my patterns, what attract subconsciously and what I need to look at there.

Since my parents (mom too!) were not emotionally available for me until about age 24, small wonder that I attract women who are not emotionally available.'

Once you're aware of patterns, esp. in how you relate to people, you can start sending messages, to yourself and the universe, that you want to change those patterns. And eventually, something will just click into place, and those old patterns will be replaced with healthier ones.

And there is a fine line between healthy self-esteem as an individual and wanting and needing, rightly so, love, companionship, intimacy from and with someone else. And don't worry, practically EVERYONE has a tough time with this one.

As for feminism, I just think feminism means women being treated with respect and not treated as "less than" men in this society. I would say your principles of equality are sound; most people have relationship issues, the two may not necessarily be intertwined all the time.

Best wishes and blessings as you go through this time of self-discovery. You'll know what to do with the knowledge you find.

p.s. Oh, and you're NOT a "disgrace to feminist principles"!
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
18:54 / 27.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Ierne:

I never even mentioned sex in my post.
So who's assuming?


You mean... there are posts on Barbelith ...
<whisper> that aren't about sex? </whisper>
 
 
Ierne
19:11 / 27.08.01
Believe it.....{deep hush....} or not!

But back to the topic...It does go back to self-esteem, how one feels about oneself. Why look to men for a sense of worth? Indeed, why look to women? Aliens? Shrinks? Rock Stars?

It's all inside YOU, and if you can't find it there, you're not going to bloody well find it anywhere (or with anyone) else.

[ 27-08-2001: Message edited by: Ierne ]
 
 
mondo a-go-go
06:54 / 29.08.01
not trying to be snarky here, but i wonder if these tenets of feminism are yours or your mum's?

as for the rest of it, i can relate, having been brought up by a single parent feminist mother with no input from daddy dearest. and most of my friends are male too -- i figure it's because i obsess about music/comics/films/internet/stuff as much as they do, and in my experience most girls/women i meet always end up talking about appearances/fashion and gossip. not that those aren't fun too, just a little limiting. even the most...emancipated women seem to limit themselves to these topics, but i am gradually meeting more who don't.

and yeah, i can relate to the whole friends-who-fancy-you-or-vice-versa thing. but generally i've learned to work around it. ish.

usually it only fucks up when people (male or female) let me down by not doing something they promised or by not being upfront and being cagey instead. which isn't limited by gender and thus equally annoying.

and i've had women seem to be threatened by me too, because i talk to men on a level that they don't appear to be used to communicating at. plus, i'm a flirt, although i flirt with everyone, male or female.

the communicating thing is a bit of an issue, though. people are still bogged down in this ridiculous notion that men and women are different species from separate planets, and it takes a lot of courage and work to deprogramme that. maybe those women just feel threatened because you're showing them what they could be...if they only accepted that they were being programmed to think in a certain way, and that it's ok not to...

if that makes any sense. i'm wired on too much caffeine and no sleep at all last night....
 
  
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