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Underground > Comic Books >

ALIAS #17

  
  

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The Falcon
22:51 / 15.12.02
Are you drunk, Sebastian?

Fair enough - I actually think the 50's morality that kept the comics code alive for so long, and that dogs, particularly, superhero comics, but is extended, by those who know no better, to all comics (cf: the Dallas arrest) is a fascinating discussion topic. Or subject for debate.

But if no-one wants to play...
 
 
bio k9
23:15 / 15.12.02
the Ultimate line...would, most likely, have been an abject failure if the uber-icons had not been used.

I don't really agree with that, I think the book would be just as good if they had given all the characters different names. They already look different and have slightly different orgins so why, other than to service the trademarks, did they retain the names?

Hmm. I'm curious, what does your statement say about the quality of the actual stories?
 
 
some guy
23:31 / 15.12.02
I think the book would be just as good if they had given all the characters different names

Perhaps - but nobody would have bought them.
 
 
dragonstout
23:35 / 15.12.02
>>It's more worrying to me that there are adults who want to read decidedly adult stories featuring children's characters.<<

Would this opinion extend to Alan Moore and Melinda Gebbie's "Lost Girls" (which I have not read, but, knowing that it's early 90s small press Alan Moore, would assume is excellent), a presumably more intelligent usage of this theme? Heck, didn't Alan Moore also do this with "Miracleman"? Or is your problem with Alias that it uses this idea poorly, unsupported by good writing, only to titillate?
 
 
bio k9
23:47 / 15.12.02
Oh yeah: Hmmm...and those other threads might have mentioned that the Fury character is revealed ultimately as a joke, an anachronism, whose down-home heroism achieves nothing except getting people killed, who is a farcical parody of the masculine...

No, the threads mostly revolved around "Oh Nick, no more..." and whether or not Ennis has lost it.
 
 
The Falcon
23:51 / 15.12.02
I think Ultimates would have been as good, reading-wise, without the recognition factor, but the others, hmm... They seem to rest more heavily, from what I've read, on tropes from their source material - as does Ultimates, a bit, but I've never particularly cared about the Avengers. Ultimate X-Men might have been better without these, Ultimate Spidey is - well - it's a Spider-Man story.

What I meant was financial failure, though, as LLB has clarified.

There's also a difference between children's characters and children as characters - which Harry Potter is.

Comics, as an entity, is a magnet to quite strange people, though. I include myself, wholeheartedly, in that description. Sometimes I'm not strange enough for my own liking.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
00:06 / 16.12.02

Part of what is bugging Cameron and myself is that pre-existing superhero characters are being stuffed into stories where they often don't need to be. Alias is clearly a comic which doesn't need to be in the Marvel universe, and doesn't really need a superhero context either. But it has one anyway. This is just one example. A lot of this is because many creators, as well as their audiences, need superheroes and sci-fi as a crutch; that they expect superhero comics to grow up with them rather than to get what they are looking for in fiction elsewhere. Not all attempts at 'mature' superheroes are crap - Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, and Pete Milligan all have done excellent work (most of which can be enjoyed by all-ages audiences); but more often than not, attempts at 'mature superheroes' are created by immature talents, and thus we get the Marvel MAX line.
 
 
Sebastian
00:28 / 16.12.02
Cam, you decide whether I am either twisting or playing with your words, because you know what you mean better than maself, but for chris'sake pal, don't take anything you read on a board that bloody seriously. And Duncan, does it matter? You already know the answer.

Flux, "Part of what is bugging Cameron and myself is that pre-existing superhero characters are being stuffed into stories where they often don't need to be.", got the point, fairly well so far. Fact is those stories sell and provide a field that some readers think it deserves to be explored, and, yes, sometimes those readers feel awfully cheated because the quality of the work is most of the times awfully, dreaddfully poor. But were you never teased by a Marvel's WHAT IF?.

Gentlemen, I am not posting another single word in this discussion.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:33 / 16.12.02
Never insult people for not agreeing with you quickly enough, Flux. It shows poor grace.

I remain fascinated that the most vocal criticism of Alias is from people who have not read it. In fact, the one thing I have learned from this comical thread is that the criticism of comics is almost the oposite of the criticism of books. Where criticism of a book is expected to be based on close reading, the truly great critic of comics does not need to read the object of their criticism, because they *already know* whether and why it is good or bad (see also which I have not read, but, knowing that it's early 90s small press Alan Moore, would assume is excellent). In comics, what matters is in the first instance what a character is called and subsequently what a character is wearing; if what they do or think is inconsistent with their name or outfit, then what they do or think is inappropriate.

This is absolutely fascinating, and very enlightening.

Particularly, I'm interested by how this dovetails with the "the changing face of comics" thread; is this a sign of the unoriginality an dlack of variety peopel seem to be complaining of? You basically know what you are getting if you buy a Grant Morrison comic (metareality, a bald hero, no thought bubbles), and likewise you don't have to buy a Bendis comic-

Who-

Bendis-

The guy who -

Who?

I told you.

Bendis.

Bendis? Fuck.

Yeah-

Why d'you say yeah?

Why did you say fuck?

You know. Bendis.

Yeah.

Bendis.


Therefore, anything written by Bendis featuring characters created by Jack Kirby (or John Byrne) is bound to be not just shit but *wrong*, becuase Bendis means sex and bad language, and characters created by Jack Kirby (or John Byrne) don't have sex or use bad language. From a formal perspective, it's brilliant.
 
 
CameronStewart
00:49 / 16.12.02
>>>for chris'sake pal, don't take anything you read on a board that bloody seriously.<<<

It's difficult not to, Sebastian, because for you and most others here comics are merely entertainment - for me, it's my livelihood. I work in this industry and I intend to do so for the rest of my life - provided the industry lasts that long. I'm extremely unhappy about the direction the business is taking and so it really gets my back up when we have discussions like these. It's my life.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
00:59 / 16.12.02
I wish I knew how to quote.

Okay. I don't necessarily think that Marvel Superheroes are "children's characters" per se. Doing a quick scan of the Spider-Man audience versus the Wild Thornberry's audience in one's local movie theater should illustrate that pretty effectively. That being said, I think the grown man in the Spider-Man hockey jersey has just as much a right to read a story about heroes aimed at him as his son does (also, probably in a Spider-Man hockey jersey).

And sure, heroes might not "need" to be "stuffed" into these kinds of stories, but I'd rather see them stuffed somewhere even slightly interesting as opposed to, say, another Legacy Virus storyline. As always, it's up to you guys to read it or not to read it.

Flux, you clearly have whittled down your reading stack to only what you want to read and God bless you for it, man. I'm always giving all types of stuff a shot. Sometimes it completely sucks. Sometimes it's perfect for a trip to the john (Ennis' Punisher comes to mind), and of course there's the stuff that I'll be reading and re-reading for the rest of my life.

And, honestly, "immature talents" isn't really appropriate by my estimation. Maybe "talents that personally don't appeal to me" is more accurate. Although you've given more than enough evidence to support your views in this thread and have not resorted to mindless sniping. I just think "immature talents" is a little, I don't know, beneath all of us.

I think, whether you like him or not, Bendis is at elast trying to do hugely different things in his books. He's taken pretty much all the "action" out of Daredevil and made it completely and nearly (for me) compulsively readable. Brian Azzarello has crafted a ridiculously complex enclosed story in 100 Bullets. And say what you will about Ennis, but he balanced all of his skills and obsessions perfectly in Preacher. Whether their work jibes with you or not, it must at least be possible for one to admit their maturity as artists.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
01:01 / 16.12.02
And Cameron, honestly, as long as there are creators who give a shit as much as you clearly do, I think there will always be comics to buy. Please stick around. Your level-headedness just may save us all.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
01:10 / 16.12.02
Haus, I think you're right that it's silly that many people are willing to criticize comics that they haven't read (or haven't read a full run of), but I don't think that is peculiar to the world of comics in the least. It's pretty typical for people to shoot down films, television shows, books, music, without a close reading/viewing/listening, much less reading/viewing/listening to those things at all. On one hand, it's ridiculous. On the other hand, people have limited time and money, and have to make their culture/entertainment decisions quite ruthlessly.
 
 
Sebastian
01:15 / 16.12.02
Understood. I'm a professional also and easily piss off when people discuss about health administration and resources, especially in a country where children malnourishment and starvation have been around for decades, never making it to the papers. Talk about "frivolity" when you look at the news in TV and for over six months of the fucking year the big news is that a local blondie is marrying a Dutch prince. And I've seen babies being craddled in wheelbarrows, wheelbarrows originally intended to carry bricks.

But I know there are boards for comic-book pros where you probably don't get "drunkards" like me toying suckingly with words, and where you can go straight to the subject at hand. And you are right, most of us here make of comicbooks an entertainement -or a sale, coz some here are retailers-, just as you probably make of health a service you deserve to get damn'right and good. And since I don't run an editorial house, bear with us, at least within Barbelith. Twists in the industry will hardly be born from here.

Now, honestly, I love you all, for your own honesty, for your sincerity, and for keeping this discussion kicking alive and brilliant. That's what I come here for. And damn, I haven't kept my word.
 
 
The Falcon
01:25 / 16.12.02
I'm enjoying this too.

It was a genuine question, Sebastian - the 'drunk' thing. Are you offended or am I right?

I feel strangely giddy at the confrontation/assimilation that's taken place. We're all friends now? Cool.
 
 
Sebastian
16:21 / 26.12.02
Oh boy, Alias is not just the one I'm missing...

AUTOMATIC KAFKA #6: About the closest to a soft-core porn comic that DC has ever published. I’m quite sure it has some sort of sort of telling socio-something or else subtext that makes it wise and witty, but mostly it’s just two “superheroes” fucking. I love Ash’s art though, so that can bounce it up to an Eh all by itself. The Savage Critic: December 18th 2002 By Brian Hibbs
 
 
The Falcon
16:46 / 26.12.02
Man, I am TOTALLY gonna check this out, D000d!!!
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
18:44 / 26.12.02
has there ever been a really good 'superhero's fucking' comic?

cos I'd like to 'read' it.
 
 
Sebastian
10:47 / 27.12.02
Oh, good question Yawn. If anybody comes with the answer I might be able to get it before New Year's Eve.
 
 
The Falcon
23:01 / 27.12.02
Actually, I saw this in the shop today and didn't bother. Tho' I do like Ashley Wood.

I've never read a comic specifically about 'superheroes fucking' before.
 
 
Janean Patience
09:21 / 10.05.07
Five years later...

(bringing back this thread because it contains substantial discussion of the series even though it's ostensibly about a single issue)

SPOILERS for Alias

There actually wasn't much to this other than "sex with Ant-Man," was there? And all the things that represents. An adult look at a childish world. What about the people in the Marvel universe who swear and drink and fuck? And who, like, don't do all the super-stuff? It reminds me of the ideas I had during my adolescence when I read X-Men and plotted stories with my mate, coming up with self-consciously adult stories about Magik having sex with a demon.

Alias is obviously well-written, if you can bear that Bendis dialogue. The individual arcs are well-plotted enough; you discover what's behind each mystery at the same time Jessica does. They're nicely done. I didn't guess that she was being set up just to pass on the Steve Rogers video in the first arc, and though I suspected that guy wasn't Rick Jones in the second arc I never really knew. Bendis is good at this noir stuff, and though the self-destructive PI is a terrible cliche there was some life in it.

As the series bore on, though, I couldn't help feeling the sex-and-Speedball element was entirely the point. Jessica's arc did, as predicted by Haus on this thread, turn out to be the result of being nonced up by a supervillain. We saw her fuck Luke Cage, Scott Lang, masturbate to a pin-up of the Human Torch. Her origin gratuitously roped in Peter Parker. When she started flying she said fuck a lot, just like a real person who suddenly found herself able to fly would. And when she was rescued by Thor she threw up on his boot. That's why it reminded me of my own teenage rantings. It crossed the same kind of lines. "How about if she gets hit by the experimental gas because she's swearing at her dad?" "If I was the Purple Man I'd do, like, weird sex shit with girls." "How about if people use superhero blood as a drug?"

Without the Marvel Universe nods would there be anything to the series at all? Series showing superantics from street level has been successful but IMHO there's nothing more to this one. It doesn't even escape the usual cliches: the team-up with Spider-Woman begins with the obligatory misunderstanding, the villain breaks out of prison just after our heroine has confronted him. (And what was the point of all that fourth wall breaking? Except it sounded cool?) All Marvel stuff is fan fiction to some extent. This really, really felt like it.
 
  

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