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Underground > Head Shop >

'vanilla' sex. what the hell is it?

10:53 / 17.08.01

apologies if this isn't the right place for this query, but digging around threads there seem to be people around here who are interested in gender/sexuality/weirdness...

so what does the phrase 'vanilla' actually mean? does it refer to specific practices, are these the same no matter whether practised among m/f, m/m, f/f, groups etc?

i'm confused as i've heard it used alot and it seems to mean alot of different things.

has it changed its meaning over time? do things become more and less 'vanilla'?

what associations do people have with this word?

[ 17-08-2001: Message edited by: hoopla ]

We're The Great Old Ones Now

11:19 / 17.08.01

Hmph.

To me it has connotations of tame, or even slightly staid. Un-besmirched with evil things like toys, costumes, leather cuffs, whips, oils...

Ahem.

Blank Faced Avatar

11:32 / 17.08.01

Yeah, it's the standard, like literally in the ice-cream world... no funny stuff. Just the default choice. The white sliced. Middle of the Road. No frills, no extras; No experimentation or Neapolitan, no Rum'n'Raisin or Rocky Road, no chocolate sauce or crushed nuts, no twin "Flake"s pushed rudely into (*emergency trip to bathroom engendered*)

12:08 / 17.08.01

but that's what i was getting at, doesn't 'the standard' or notions of what is 'tame and staid' vary hugely depending on context and scene?

have no doubt there are contexts where things i do would seem depraved and appalling, but at the same time, other groups where i'd be chided for being 'tame', boring, unexperimental etc... have encountered both scenarios i think...

so is vanilla one of those terms we apply to other people? or a meaningless term, or one we throw at people to be derogatory? or to point out how transgressive and groovy we are? classic 'othering' term?

it seems to be one people regard as fixed/definitive, but is it? often in my experience, people who are very shy of using definitive terms in general?

12:09 / 17.08.01

Isn't 'vanilla' the Other for BDSM?
Does anybody identify as 'vanilla'? or is it a term solely used by those who feel oppositional in some way? Is it, in fact, solely a termof abuse.

Much as 'normalised' sexual discourse talks about perversion as something pathological or criminal, 'vanilla' is word meaning boring, dull, possibly oppressive.

I assume it's not intercourse with Vanilla planifloia

12:50 / 17.08.01

Vanilla's a spice, innit?

People seem to forget that when they use this term.

I've only heard the term used in reference to other people in a somewhat condescending manner. Usually by peers applying pressure:
"Aw c'mon! Don't be so vanilla! Spank the girl already, she's begging for it!" ( I actually overheard this at The Vault during an S/M night some time ago.)

or about ex-lovers:

"Well, he was very nice but very vanilla...I asked him to tie me up and he wouldn't. So I dumped him."

13:13 / 17.08.01

So is possible to reclaim vanilla as something positive without falling back into 'normalised' morality? And would you want to?

Not particularly enjoying BDSM, I'd quite happily call myself a 'vanilla' if questioned.

The Sinister Haiku Bureau

14:17 / 17.08.01

Okay, i think a few specific examples are in order here:

1. Does gay/lesbian sex count as vanilla? I could understand it being considered odd/perverse/kinky (not to mention illegal) at, say, the start of the 20th Century, but nowadays?
2. Oral Sex? Again, pretty normal nowadays, but previously? And isn't it illegal in some countries (and if memory serves correctly, some US states?). Are definitions of vanilla/non-vanilla dependant on the country they're performed in, and their legal status?
3. What about position? What about location? Does heterosexual missionary position become non-vanilla if performed balanced on top of the goodyear blimp in the middle of the superbowl?
4. Is anal sex vanilla for gay (male) couples, but non vanilla for straights? (assuming the woman isn't doing the guy up the arse with a strap-on

)

So yeah, what are the boundary conditions of the vanilla/non-vanilla divide?

With regards to belbin's question, (regarding reclaiming vanilla) I think comparisons to the straight-edge scene could be in order, whose militant anti-drug stance is completely at odds to the traditional 'sex,drugs and rock and roll' vibe, and to the governmental anti-drug vibe. But I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this...I'll think about it and post more later if I have something worth saying...
I guess (vanilla) hetero-missionary could be considered quite outrageous if you did it at an S&M club...

[ 17-08-2001: Message edited by: Johnny Haiku Headed Racoon-Dog ]

14:28 / 17.08.01

Vanilla sex is really difficult; first you have to get the individual plants to loop over themselves on the trellis and produce a flower; then you have to get two unrelated individual plants to cross-pollinate one another. Trust me, I've been trying for years.

Any other explanation is purely subjective.

Disco is My Class War

10:42 / 19.08.01

To my understanding, 'vanilla' is the term used by BDSM'ers and kinksters and fetishists to describe people who aren't into it. Sometimes it's derogatory. Sometimes it's not, y'know. And as far as I know, it crosses sexual 'boundaries' -- I know heaps of vanilla dykes, for instance. And fags.

On the other hand, I know of many sexual practices which are constantly in contestation about whether they're 'vanilla' or 'kinky'. Fisting, for example. 'Rough sex'. (if you bite someone during sex, does that make you BDSM?) And sometimes i think vanilla is used in a protective way, to say that whatever you do in bed, you're still not a pervert. Which sucks, I reckon, 'cause everyone is perverse in their own way.

12:09 / 19.08.01

hmmm it seems to be a catch all term for anyone whose sex life you consider pedestrian and dull.

Ganesh

12:53 / 19.08.01

Not necessarily pedestrian and dull, but the perceived idea of 'mainstream' as opposed to 'kinky' (and yeah, I'm aware that these terms can be similarly problematic in terms of groping for definition). In BDSM contact ads, many describe themselves as 'into the whole spectrum, including vanilla' - so it's not wholly derogatory in tone.

Whisky Priestess

19:32 / 19.08.01

Vanilla as I understand it measn being able to enjoy/preferring sex without all the paraphernalia of fetishism, role play and all that shit. I've done some of the aforementioned but rarely with any enthusiasm, so I'm a persuadable vanillette, if you will.

It's not that I would refuse to do anything (except possibly scat) but that I probably wouldn't find it very arousing - possibly even find it funny.

20:34 / 19.08.01

quote:
On the other hand, I know of many sexual practices which are constantly in contestation about whether they're 'vanilla' or 'kinky'. Fisting, for example. 'Rough sex'. (if you bite someone during sex, does that make you BDSM?) And sometimes i think vanilla is used in a protective way, to say that whatever you do in bed, you're still not a pervert. Which sucks, I reckon, 'cause everyone is perverse in their own way.

Well, this kinda goes to Freud's notion that anything is perverse that isn't male-to-female, genital intercourse. Which includes kissing for example. The key thing here is scrapping a straightforward - 'kinky/straight' dichotomy and having a more fluid terrain over which to discuss what turns you on and what doesn't.

deletia

07:50 / 20.08.01

I believe it is one of the many prostitute calling cards adorning Whisky P.'s bathroom wall that says "Kinky or Straight - I'm Great!"

I think we can all learn a lot from that.

Goodness Gracious Meme

13:15 / 20.08.01

The lesson's plain to see, I'm sure you are, Haus dear.

Interesting, and incidentally, why is there sex talk all over the head shop again? (not that I'm complaining, mind you

)

I'm interested in Rosa's point about practices that are under contestation.

Eg a common trope in all kinds of pretty mainstream representations of vanilla het sex is a woman scratching her male partner's back during (missionary) sex and him getting off on this. Does that mean there's some S/M going on there?

Wondering if on both 'sides' of the BDMS/vanilla 'divide' (sorry for all the bloody scare quotes but I'm not really sure what I'm on about here) there's something invested in keeping these practices 'naughty'.

Braindead, will come back to this.

Whisky Priestess

10:16 / 21.08.01

The nails thing is shorthand for passion - excitement - can't control my fingers - the little bit of pain doesn't count as SM any more than nipping someone's earlobe, surely?

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:26 / 21.08.01

I don't think a clear line can be drawn, WP. That point's been made by a few people above... The inflicting and receiving of pain involved may or may not add to the fun of it all, depending largely on the parties involved. I think making people realise that there isn't any real distinction between what they consider their normal, normative, healthy sex lives and that weirdo pervert kinky shit that those weird pervy pervs are into - I think that's arguably a very laudable thing...

We're The Great Old Ones Now

15:52 / 21.08.01

I don't think it's a very precise term. I was going to say that I wouldn't describe someone who lacerated my back as vanilla, but then I realised that I know someone who did who was.

Go figure.

Perhaps there should be standardised testing. A quiz or practical exam to determined benchmarked vanillaness. In fact I'm going to start a thread in The Conversation about it right now.

[ 21-08-2001: Message edited by: Nick ]

Ganesh

10:02 / 22.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Whisky Priestess:
The nails thing is shorthand for passion - excitement - can't control my fingers - the little bit of pain doesn't count as SM any more than nipping someone's earlobe, surely?

It's the inflicting of pain within the context of sex, innit? Po-tay-toe po-tah-toe...

Disco is My Class War

05:05 / 25.08.01

My question is, why does it matter? People have all sorts of investments in giving names (and meaning) to their sexual practices. I know I do. Part of 'vanilla', I'm sure, is about identity and the ways in which we inhabit communities: BDSMers need a boundary, especially the ones who think that BDSM sex is more 'special' than other sex.

But part of it is also about shame, or, to be more taxonomically correct, privacy. BDSM/fetish is available as a sexual practice to almost anyone, in the privacy of their own homes. You may occasionally see trashy documentaries that feature kinky adult babies and their (far younger) 'mummy'-cum-sex-worker, but it's provided as extreme spectacle, contingent on the fact that the home viewer doesn't do this stuff and is a cultural tourist.

When do you say that someone else is vanilla? Does anyone here actually describe themselves as vanilla? See, in my experience 'vanilla' operates as a label spread by gossip, or semi-public movements around reputation: 'Yeah, she's spunky, but she's hopelessly vanilla.' (Okay, so in some circles I move in, vanilla is an epithet. Sorry.) At the same time as vanilla acknowledges a particular person's way of having sex, it also works as a warning of an individual's active dislike for 'perverse' sex acts, or a certain shame which prevents her from declaring perversion in the semi-public languages of casual sex and dressing up and eyings across the floor of a night-club and, of course, gossip, that lubricates some of our sexed communities. I do, really, think that everyone is perverse. Not in a Freudian sense, either, belbin: m/f genital sex (or 'penis-vagina sex', as I like to call it) can be perverse too. But this doesn't enter the public sphere: 'vanilla' is a symptom of that.

Whiskey said: "The nails thing is shorthand for passion - excitement - can't control my fingers - the little bit of pain doesn't count as SM any more than nipping someone's earlobe, surely?"

For you, maybe. Not for me.

Ganesh

17:06 / 25.08.01

I've heard many people describe 'vanilla' as part of their repertoire of sexual turn-ons (as in "I like vanilla too"), but never heard anyone say they're totally vanilla.

I guess it's similar to lesbians and gay men referring to hets, somewhat dismissively, as 'breeders': a faintly derogatory term used by members of a minority group to establish a sense of shared community versus a larger, more pervasive Other.

17:45 / 25.08.01

I believe there's also a line about Marilyn Monroe to the effect that if one had bitten
into her breast she would have been made of vanilla ice scream...

Mordant Carnival

20:58 / 25.08.01

Nuffink wrong with vanilla, babes. Remember, there is a world of difference between Iceland's own-brand soft-scoop, and a homemade ice with real cream, egg yolk and brown sugar. It's not how much garnish you put on, it's the quality of the ingredients... Sorry, were you guys talking about sex?