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Marvel's finest?

 
 
The Falcon
04:23 / 07.12.02
As a comic company, I'm fairly certain I own far more Marvel product than that of any other, yet as a creative concern, I'm left wondering why precisely this is.

It's easy to reel off several Vertigo titles as canonical classics (nice, Stan Lee-ism, there...) but what have Marvel done, with the (contentious) exception of certain current runs (Ultimates, NXM, X-Statix) that's got your 'art' juices flowing, now or as a callow youth?

I'm opting for the old 'Dark Phoenix' saga as a fave - mutants, melodrama, outer space, love and all that shit made it excellent to my 15-year old trade reading self.

What about youse lot?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
08:09 / 07.12.02
Peter David's run on Hulk, of which I had copies from somewhere near where he started up to about 430, which was when I went off to university and couldn't afford it any more.

I presume that elements such as the Green Hulk being the rage Bruce Banner bottled up as a child weren't invented by Peter David but he looked at things with a fresh perspective that others like JMS, Millar and Morrison are doing now, but which was quite alien then. Highlights include the year leading up to 377, where you have Banner, the Grey Hulk and the Green Hulk all fighting one another for existence before they integrate in to one being) and then 401-425 as the Hulk slowly looses his sanity and goes completely mental.

'Kraven's Last Hunt' in the Spidey titles was pretty good, but not drop dead slam dunk excellent, and the first 'Secret Wars' was good, not as anodyne as later crossovers like the whole 'Infinity Dustcovers' stuff. Little things like the X-Men having to strike off on their own because the other heroes don't trust them. 10 years later the universe would briefly end between issues of 'The Avengers'.
 
 
Sebastian
14:08 / 07.12.02
After all these years, the issues related to the death of Gwen Stacy continues to come to my mind in first place. It shaped me, and I allowed it to shape me as pretty well as I can remember. Listen to that: SNAP!, she's dead, like from a very, very bad joke from the villain, the hero was stoned, he had lost her, then the villain died stupidly, still mocking around with his joke, just when the hero was beginning to collect his thoughts.
 
 
some guy
17:14 / 07.12.02
The first John Romita Jr run on Uncanny X-Men.

I've wondered about the canonical classics thing myself. Why do Marvel books make up so much of my collection? I think the answer is that on average Marvel has a multi-decade history of putting out solid books. The other companies are much more volatile, IMO, with DC and Vertigo churning out an awful lot of crap to make those handful of classics stick to the wall. The '90s aside, Marvel has been a steadier ship. So perhaps not so many "major works," but a more quality output overall.

Your mileage may vary, of course.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
17:50 / 07.12.02
I quietly dug Elekra Assassin by miller/sink
 
 
000
17:54 / 07.12.02
@I presume that elements such as the Green Hulk being the rage Bruce Banner bottled up as a child weren't invented by Peter David@

This was invented around #300 by Bill Mantlo, I think. And it had, for that time, nice art by Talaoc or something.

As it was the translated comics I read, I can't remember where Peter David did his Spider-Man stint, but I have fond memories of the DeWulff storyline, a self-contained story where Spidey goes to the suburbs (and has trouble moving around sans skyscrapers, natch), and so forth. My teenager self found them funny.

Around the death rattle of my comic buying habit, I remember being severely impressed by Inhumans, but what can I say, I think the world of Jenkins. I stumbled upon a spiderstory he did with his Hellblazer co-conspirator Sean Phillips, Webspinners 11, if memory serves right. In it, Chameleon confesses his homosexual love for PP.

Excalibur but just because Alan Davis is such an inventive illustrator, and quite funny too. Even though 42-67 may have it's occasional clumsy narration it still hasn't been surpassed in my mind as one of the greatest runs in Marvel's history.

And ClanDestine! Until Davis left and some hack took the premises where children fear to go. Which Davis corrected in the subsequent ClanDestine/X-Men crossover.

And which lead me to the Cap Britain reprints.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
18:44 / 07.12.02
Hear-hear on the Alan Davis Excalibur. Still one of my absolute favorites.
 
 
dlotemp
22:43 / 07.12.02
I've noticed that nothing older then the Gwen Stacy story has been mentioned and I think that's a shame since a lot of great stuff was published before that.

Spider-Man by Lee and Ditko is still a marvelous read, no pun intended, even after 40 odd years. Sure, it's googy in parts but the raw energy, tone, and creative discipline radiates off of the page. They haven't lost their resonance even if the visual lexicon of the early 60s seems dated.

Fantastic Four by Lee and Kirby, particularly from #49 - 75, is an incredible 2-year marathon of action, adventure, and unbridled creation. Every page is crisp. The characters are simply fun. The threats are monstrous. These issues were the benchmark that Dark Phoenix had to beat.

Steranko's run on Shield. Okay, the first 6 or so episodes in Strange Tales are uneven but Steranko took off once he was able to write and draw the thing. An interesting thing about Steranko is that he utilizes many cliches but he's always pushing the envelope on execution. No other book on the stand could visually compare to Steranko on Shield, and his style and acumen still hold up. DC in comparison was caught between the venerable old artists and the inexperienced young turks at the time and couldn't hold a candle to Steranko's ability to manipulate the page. Nothing bad over there, some solid DC books and all, but Steranko politely stunned the comics world with his work.

The X-men run by Thomas and Adams.

Jim Starlin's work on Captain Marvel and Warlock. Also, Steve Englehart's Dr. Strange work. It's easy to laugh at these books for their heavy-handed, prog-rock, metaphysics but these books were opening new conceptual dialogues in the the American market. The books showed that you could discuss interesting philosophical topics in the comics medium, as well as how you could do it, unlike other books available at the time. Good comics that I still re-read today.

Frank Miller's Daredevil stuff - again, another guy coming in an showing how comics could incorporate a new visual lexicon, while taking a weak character and investing it with life.

Claremont and Bryne's X-Men - classic. Set the mark for the superhero story for the next 15 years.

Mighty Thor by Walter Simonson. It seemed so simple at the time but, looking back, Simonson clearly shows how new life can be invested into a character with a thoughtful approach. It's like the 15 odd years between Simonson and Kirby didn't exist, or shouldn't, because the series captures that same enthusiasm and creativity. Thor earned this prefix with this run.

I think all of the above works are seminal pieces of Marvel comics. There are some lesser works that have dated themselves and clearly lost their force. These are books that were great at the time but didn't break any new ground. Still, these books obviously spoke to an audience that DC wasn't reaching. I talking about stuff like
the Englehart run on the Avengers.
Perez's 70s run on the Avengers.
Not to foreft Perez's 70s run on the Fantastic Four.
Moench and Gulacy on Master of Kung Fu
Thomas, Smith, Buscema, and company on Conan
Thomas's run on the Avengers is fun too.
Also, lest we forget Steve Gerber and his iconoclastic run on the Defenders and Howard the Duck.
Byrne's run on the Fantastic Four
I could go on but I think I've already stolen a lot of thunder.

I recall that writer Steven Grant once characterised DC and Marvel has having two aesthetics. DC usually had a long view with an eye towards tradition and standard quality, while Marvel always seemed to take the short view and was constantly branching out into different ideas. Just quickly looking at the above books there seems to be a diversity of ideas and stylistic approaches all sitting under one house.

I agree with most of the others that Marvel seems to outnumber DC in my collection and i've often wondered why. One reason is tone. I'm going to make a gross comparison but let's take two artists who I feel made indelible impressions upon their respective companies: Curt Swan and Jack Kirby. Curt Swan was THE superman artist for nearly 30 years. He had a clean, dependable line. He had excellent pacing abilities and story-telling strategies. He rarely used splash pages or double page spreads. Jack Kirby had a clean, dependable line but he utilized dramatic prespectives, opened up pages, and told a story with the maximum amount of drama. Both are great artist but it took me 20 years to discover the beauty in Curt Swan's approach, a style that clearly infilitrated the DC line, while Kirby gave me an immediate rush of excitement. He still gives me a rush. I think one of the differences between the two companies lies somewhere in there.
 
 
The Falcon
05:03 / 08.12.02
Twin thread.
 
 
Sebastian
22:13 / 08.12.02
I've just realised many of the Conan books I used to read were from Marvel, so I count them in here. And also the crazy Conan - What If issues that were simply marvelous, no pun.
 
 
The Falcon
23:04 / 08.12.02
Yeah, Captain Britain...

My pal got the trade a while ago from Amazon, and it really is (re-)defining stuff, too. So many tropes that you can see in contemporary superheroics.

Great. Artistically, this might actually trump 'Dark Phoenix' for me - though I've not read the latter for a long time, so my judgement is impaired. I hope it stands up.
 
 
Sebastian
10:38 / 09.12.02
Duncan, what a great perfect site for comic-book nerds that HeroRealm is, thank you, I was sort of needing it but couldn't still find anything alike.
 
 
The Falcon
11:40 / 09.12.02
No problem. (I hope you're being serious.)
 
 
The Natural Way
13:05 / 09.12.02
All that 80's Black Cat and Doc Ock and Spidey stuff. I could feel their sexheat!

"Spidey....PUT YOUR MASK BACK ON!!!!"

Really cool, kinky stuff.

And, I always go on about it, but Spidey ripping off Doc's tentacles. I could feel the pain. That was horrible. Ock was such a vicious psychopath in the 80's.

Excalibur did indeed rock.

And Daredevil...how I always imagined New York. Born Again is still hands down one of the best story arcs ever. EVER. Matt and Karen hugging in the snow.....
 
 
Sebastian
01:04 / 10.12.02
I am, Duncan, I am.

Incidentally, I ordered last week that Miller's Daredevil story so much talked about, in which Kingpin learns his identity and bla-bla-bla. I hope I will finally agree I was missing something huge.
 
 
The Falcon
02:20 / 10.12.02
You should totally sign up. I'm a moderator there!

It's so cool. The other day we were arguing about Wolverine's hair being a mutant side effect. Well, I wasn't because I didn't know about it, so I affected 'slight disdain'.

But most of the posters there are unbelievably nice. And I might start doing a column for them, as I've been asked to.

So weird, I originally signed up to annoy them/argue with them 'cause they were all hatin' on GM. But now I'm quite literally 'making friends...'
 
 
Sebastian
11:30 / 10.12.02
Out of curiosity, what type of column?
 
 
moriarty
22:17 / 10.12.02
I'm pretty down on Marvel, but I'll give them one thing. I was in the shop the other day and came across one of their Marvel Visionaries books, specifically the Gil Kane one. Paperback, colour, devoted to an artist and not a character. They've done the same for Steranko and Miller, among others. DC should take a hint and finally put out an Alex Toth collection.
 
 
adamswish
14:57 / 11.12.02
Peter David's run on Hulk

I agree with this too. Got the whole Pantheon storyline, which also tied in nicely with the multiply personality story. Only stopped once Liam Sharp came in with bad sub-bisley artwork that just did not go with the writing style.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:09 / 11.12.02
All that 80's Black Cat and Doc Ock and Spidey stuff. I could feel their sexheat!

God, I know this is really sad in a way, but I'm right there with you: as far as I'm concerned, Spidey was at his coolest when he was in the black... It was all so 80s: alien costume, reformed jewel thief girlfriend, that's the way to go - none of this angsty "I'm still guilty about Unca Ben" crap... It's like, you know how in the 80s teen movie about the nerdy guy who becomes really cool, he ends up realising it's all shallow and can't make him happy? Wouldn't it be better if he just stayed as the Fonz? Alien costume Spidey was FONZtastic.
 
 
The Falcon
16:44 / 11.12.02
I read all that, in Spider-Man and Zoids, back when I was 6-7. Preferred Zoids at the time.

Tom DeFalco, eh? "Proportionate speed and strength...", he always had Spdey say. That's where I learnt what 'proportionate' meant.
 
 
01
18:32 / 11.12.02
Although they're not all what most people would consider "Marvel Masterpieces", here's some of my favourites:

Spiderman vs The Sineater. A four parter in Peter Parker Spectacular Spiderman in the '80s. Tense shit. Can't remember who wrote it.

Kitty Pride and Wolverine Mini-series. Claremont. Woverine duking it out with his old sensei is still one of the best Marvel comics battles ever.

Age of Apocalypse. Good shit.

But hands down, by far, the single most greatest moment in the entire span of Marvel Comics history is the scene in the Secret Wars where the Hulk is holding up an entire mountain that the Molecule Man has dropped on the battered heroes. Reed Richards rewiring Iron Man's armour while pissing off the Hulk to make him stronger has sheer Marvel brilliance.
 
 
The Falcon
18:39 / 11.12.02
Ah, Sin-eater. That was faithfully reprinted in 'S-M 'n' Z', as I'm now calling it for brevity's sake, too.

Best Spidey story therein - "the crud who killed Jean DeWolffe..."

Daredevil knocking Spidey spark oot.

Finding out his secret identity.

Ex-marine on a bad steroid trip.

Cracking.

I like a lot of the AOA stuff, too - X-Men taken to their natural conclusion - a grim, Darwinian dystopia. Loads of cool rewrites on previous continuity. Depressing. Aye!
 
 
houdini
19:19 / 11.12.02
X-Men: 'God Loves Man Kills' and 'Days Of Futures Past'.

New Mutants: the Claremont - Seinkewicz run

'Stray Toasters' by Seinkewicz

Havok & Wolverine: 'Meltdown' by the Simonsons, Jon J Muth & Kent Williams - far from perfect but one of the first takes on a more adult storytelling. Stands out from Vertigo of the same period by dint of not being overwritten.

Daredevil: all the FM stuff above and also the Nocenti - Romita, Jr run of the late 1980's. Even the Nocenti & Lee Weeks stuff that followed was pretty darn tootin'.

Elfquest: Of course, this is really a WaRP production, but at least Marvel/Epic had the good sense to reprint it.

Moonshadow: pretentious and overwritten, but I've got a soft spot for JMDeM and his ridiculous 'tache, and Jon J Muth's painting is excellent.

Early FF, Avengers etc showed some real Kirby verve. Sadly, I'm underexposed to this work to comment.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
22:19 / 11.12.02
OK...the old guy speaks (old...I started reading Marvel in 1975)

The best stuff is:

Fantastic Four 40 - 80: Kirby at his peak, Stan holding him down to create actual stories and some of the most brilliant creations comics have ever seen. FF #51 is still the best Marvel comic ever done.

Spider-Man 1 - 38: This was Ditko's finest hour, another comic with more ideas erupting per issue than even one of Grant Morrison's fever dreams...and pure teen angst at its most entertaining. If this was the only thing Stan Lee ever scripted, he'd still be my hero.

Dr. Strange under Ditko...possibly the weirdest successful comic even, with Ditko's amazing graphics and Lee's ability to have it all make sense. After reading the "Essential" and finally seeing the end of the Ditko's run and the stuff that came after, it's clear Ditko was working in a realm most others couldn't touch...and Marvel got VERY lucky that Spider-Man didn't utterly collapse like this book did.

Anything by Don McGregor...his Black Pather and Killraven were probably the first books people looked at and thought comics could be literary, even if he did have troubel editing anything out of them.

Gerber's Howard the Duck and Defenders, again, very literary works that stretched mainstream books the same way Underground comics did.

Starlin's Warlock: The natural outgrowth of Stan's Cosmic pretentions and LOTS of drug use, making a comic that taps pop SF of the time and comics ability in graphic hallucinations.

Claremont's X-Men from 100 until issue 175...yeah, we can go over it, but Claremont knew characterization and story construction. His work became a deadly self-parody after Paul Smith left the book.

Miller's work. All of it. Bringing the dark crime noir of the 50's into comics 30 years later and beating back the still prevelent perception that comics were primarily for kids.

Master of Kung Fu: All but the last 5 issues, perfectly constructed, and with art that was well beyond most other comics...Moench threw in all the stuff he was reading, (Fu Manchu as the leader of the illuminanti?) with amazing work by Gene Day, Mike Zeck and Paul Gulacy. Not just a rip off of the Bruce Lee craze, but an actual way of trying to get the perceived complexity of his ideas in a comic.

Tomb of Dracula: A horror comic that actually was creepy. Gene Colon never did better work with mood, and Marv Wolfman took what could have been a silly idea and infused it with characters you cared about, and made Dracula more than the Christopher Lee bad guy, but an a true villian with more personality than 90% of other comics characters.

That enough?
 
 
RadJose
06:58 / 12.12.02
christ, starlin's old Warlock, man did i love that stuff... all i can find is one issue of that now, and i NEED to fins more, i love 'em... oddly enough the first 25 issues of Deadpool are some of my all time favorite comics... ever
 
  
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