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What is the main theme/purpose in the "Arcadia" arc?

 
 
deja_vroom
10:38 / 06.12.02
Ok. Ragged Robin just found John the Baptist's head. If I'm not mistaken, this particular arc is about to end in one or two more issues, right? So, what's the main theme here? I still can't figure out if this arc is just a preamble for a bigger story to come, being just a narrative device, or if it has its own meaning, hidden somewhere inside the incessant namedropping and literary references.
What's Grant Morrison talking about here?

And, er... I actually enjoy not being able to figure out what the fuck is going on, and the text is really good. I just thought it would do no harm if I had a clue of what is going on.
 
 
some guy
10:56 / 06.12.02
"Paradise" is found within.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:59 / 06.12.02
It's 'about' freedom, as far as I can tell. What freedom is, what it means to different people, and what it leads to, as in the case of the French the 'freedom' of the Revolution leads to the tyranny of the 'Terror' and the guillitene, De Sade believes that if you give the people freedom savegery and cruelty will result and there's a critique of people not realising that freedom is hard work with the sub complaining that Tim Leary didn't hold his hand and take him through the doors to freedom.

As for John the Baptist's head, I'm a bit lost as to the specifics of that. I'm not sure if Robin means that in the Invisibles brave new world they'll have something better (on the grounds of the tyrany of language that gets explored later on in the series) or if that they'll have what John the Baptist has anyway, that it's not something they'll be given. I suspect it's the latter, but don't quite understand why. Mister Ruuuuunce, do your thing!
 
 
Dave Philpott
20:27 / 06.12.02
Perhaps it was a clue for interpreting the events to come. John the Baptist obviously knew what the true Jesus knew, the secret the Templars knew as well. The language of angels, glossolalia, speaking in tongues, babbling, it all means the same thing and it is the treasure. Living in a world where the language means what you want it to mean. Where your interpretation is the correct one. The language of the supercontext, maybe?

And also what Misgendered said about freedom. That's cool because language becomes the tyranny, yeah?

The blind chessman calls it the primal tongue and the original voice. Warren Ellis wrote about glossolalia being what babies speak. At any rate, it's the language the blind chessman says will be the common tongue in what I'm assuming to be the supercontext.
 
 
The Falcon
01:24 / 07.12.02
It's also, as someone pointed out to me, like Grant's other Romantic poetry quoting (particularly Shelley) tale Batman: Gothic, about the inevitable failure of closed/Utopian societies.
 
 
dlotemp
22:52 / 07.12.02
I've noticed that Morrison has an occassional habit of following up his first adventures on a title with an overture to the rest of the run. For instance, Animal Man #5 had a story called the Coyote Gospel that set the tone and a theme for the rest of the run. Similarly, Arcadia seems to encapsulate and address most of the themes and ideas that the Invisibles will deal with - identity, physical freedom versus spiritual freedom, reality, etc. I'm not saying that Morrison has a pathological compulsion to write these overtures but he seems to use them when he knows where he's going on a book. Just a small suggestion.
 
 
vajramukti
23:40 / 07.12.02
there is also the bit in india with the shadow puppets, which recapitulates the whole 'game' idea. You see clashing forces in the puppet show, but it's really just the puppeteer playing both sides.

The baptist head is also, I think, an indictment of wanting the archetypal 'person to tell me what to do' or looking for some kind of legitamacy through myth and dogma. You can shape just about any message to suit your own purposes.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
09:38 / 08.12.02
Although to be irritatingly pedantic, Animal Man was supposed to be a four issue mini-series which then became a regular series, it was only after writing the Coyote Gospel that Grant said he realised the direction that the series had to go.
 
 
dlotemp
23:20 / 08.12.02
Your absolutely right about Animal Man, My Misgendered Lord of the Flowers. I did now that. I don't think that undermines the notion that Arcadia and The Coyote Gospel act as overtures to their respective series, or that Morrison likes to utilize the device.
 
 
Chubby P
09:30 / 09.12.02
As far as I remember at a most basic level the Arcadia arc was supposed to be a typical Invisibles mission and also contain the philosophy behind the Invisibles. Parts of the story were censored by editorial and had to be rewritten by Morrison. This was the arc that almost killed the book. As a result when Morrison started Volume 2 he took a more mainstream approach to the storytelling in an attempt to drag in new readers and then hit them with the weirdness later. Seemed to work since the series continued to the end.

Heres some comments about Arcadia from Grant: (source)

"I can't really do The Invisibles the way I did it before because 'Arcadia' [a complex, time-travel story arc involving the Marquis de Sade and the French Enlightenment] just didn't work. That's when everyone jumped off the book. And I had to be forced to admit that there's certain things that the general comics audience just can't handle. I have to downscale from that, slightly, so there won't be those same kind of complex historical things again."

"The first four issues of Volume Two are this complete ironic version of The Invisibles for America. Because they're in America, we're getting a whole different version of the Invisibles.....I think hopefully if we can drag in some more of the casuals with the sex and violence at the start, then we can lead them up to the more sophisticated stuff."
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
09:40 / 09.12.02
Has Grant ever spoken about exactly WHAT was censored?
 
 
some guy
10:58 / 09.12.02
In Anarchy for the Masses (which appears to be sporting a Frank Quitely cover these days: http://www.madyakpress.com/anarchyforthemasses.html) Jill Thompson says her artwork was modified in production to hide a lot of the nudity, while Grant says that the two victims in Silling are referred to as children throughout. Apparantly Karen Berger had just had a baby and wouldn't allow kids to be abused in the book, so they were renamed "lost souls" or something.
 
 
houdini
14:44 / 11.12.02
I actually just bought and re-read 'Say You Want A Revolution'. I'm buying and reading my way through the trades as my original issues are on the wrong side of the Atlantic somewhere. A couple things struck me:

(i) Despite having more writing, I'm not sure that volume I did have better writing. Bits of it were incredibly good, but I actually think the stripped down work that Morrison did in Vols II & III was much more effective. Those volumes felt pop. The felt like The Invisibles. Vol I feels a lot like Another Vertigo Book, albeit one with some good ideas to offer. Having the Shellys and Byron in it is awfully similar to Milligan's 'Ernest and Jim' story where Shade wanders round '20's Paris with Hemmingway and Joyce.

(ii) Having read the rest of the series, there's little about 'Arcadia' that doesn't make sense any more. But it was clearly a much harder story than 'Down & Out...' or the wreckless carnage of the first issue. I think when I was first reading it, aged 18 or so, I was a bit perturbed that the characters didn't attempt to intervene in either the Revolution or the brutality of the Marquis' satire. (Is "satire" the right word -- what about "satiriporn"?) Re-reading it, I was more concerned with a sense of the degree to which the plot was forced - Orlando sends them the postcard of Arcadia which KM happens to use for the group's psychic fix, rather than, eg. any other object that they have with them, which maybe wasn't sent by their arch enemy, etc. Not a big quibble, but things definitely aren't as smooth as later work.

(iii) Despite being thematically on the money, it's also clear that in many ways The Invisibles was going to be a very different book at the time of Arcadia than it turned out being. The whole sub-plot with John-A-Dreams going over to the Enemy is introduced here (with Orlando hacking the time travel codes of the windmill etc), and there's a different take on it, more like Morrison was going to play it straight. Boy bitches and moans about "hating this time-travel shit," as if the group regularly time-hop, and no-one seems nearly as perturbed as they do by the time travelling in vol II and III. Hm. Dammit. Reading the book, I noticed lots of little discrepancies which showed it was cut from a different cloth, but right now that's all I can remember.

(iv) Finally, the one thing I still don't really understand is the Blind Chessman. Presumably the people who think he's Satan are referring to the apple he offers Mary Shelly. But mightn't this also connect to the apple symbolism from the first arc. (John Lennon gives KM an apple which he passes on to Rags. We never see if she eats it.) (* Inspiration! *) Let's assume that she does eat it and that answers the question I was about to pose: How come Robin ends up at Chateaux Head anyways? KM and Boy getting stuck in the card makes sense, Jack and Fanny waking up makes sense. But I never really understood why Rags ended up on that side mission.

(v) Nasty bit: To be honest, I think maybe part of what this book suffered from in losing readers was Jill Thompson's art. Sorry, to Thompson fans out there. Personally, I think she developed much better work later in the series (eg. the 'Sheman' story or her work on vol III) and I am a big fan of Scary Godmother. But, particularly after Yeowell's work on the first 4 issues I think the art in 5-9 is unappealing and static. It certainly doesn't provide the kind of sugarcoating for a complex message that, eg, Phil Jimenez would later give us.

(vi) Clearly the Planet Glossalalia stuff is intended to try and foreshadow the essence of The Invisibles' struggle. As is "There is no struggle, there is only the [pupeteer]". But the trouble with Arcadia is a lack of narrative drive. We wander through a tour of different metaphoric "points" related to notions of liberty but the dissipated themes never really coalesce. The only notion of story is Orlando being the booga-booga (complete with requisite Vertigo Cod Horror face-stealing) and lopping off Jack's fingertip, thus plunging the heroes into the dark part of their quest. But since this *doesn't* relate to any of the thematic work it doesn't serve to tie the story together into a package. I think this is why it feels like an overture - no resolution. (And, indeed, I wonder what genius at Vertigo decided to package '23:Things Fall Apart' as the first story in the next trade, rather than putting it in its rightful place at the end of 'Say You Want...'.)

Just my 2 golden apple-pits worth.
 
 
arcboi
19:26 / 11.12.02
I remember starting to lose interest in The Invisibles by the time the Arcadia arc rolled around. It just seemed all too disjointed and vague. The Shelly/Byron interludes just seemed to be stretching out issues that I'm sure could have been summed up in a simpler manner. I'm also not a fan of Jill Thompson's artwork at all on this particular arc.

I'd also agree that it all seemed to be being played straight and that after this GM appeared to revise the direction and style the series was taking. In hindsight this was a good decision and gave us the classic Invisibles we know and love today.

That's an interesting point about Karen Berger's editorial decisions. And also a right one. Let's hope that the next time the series is reissued as a TPB we can have a Special Edition in which all the nasty shootings and killings can be digitally replaced. Possibly by people carrying walkie-talkies. Or something.

It's interesting knowing what we know now regarding Orlando. Is it conceivable that Orlando/John deliberately sent that particular postcard knowing full well that it could be used as an exit?

As for the time travel issue - perhaps the team were only used to the idea of psychic time travel backwards in time, but not physical time travel forwards (or indeed backwards) in time.
 
 
penitentvandal
08:48 / 12.12.02
The man with the apple is referred to as 'Satan' because apparently that's the name Grant gave him in the script.

I agree with arcboi - the 'time travel shit' Boy complains about is the Invisibles technique of travelling in dream form into the past. Actual physical time travel, as happens in V2 & V3, is much more new and scary to them, especially in terms of its effects.
 
 
PatrickMM
16:48 / 15.12.02
I'd also agree that it all seemed to be being played straight and that after this GM appeared to revise the direction and style the series was taking. In hindsight this was a good decision and gave us the classic Invisibles we know and love today.

I defenitely agree with this. While usually an artist not doing what he wants to do would annoy me, with the Invisibles, it made for a better work. Arcadia has a lot of excellent content, and nicely puts forth a lot of the important ideas of the series. However, it's nowhere near as fun to read as the rest of the series. It gets bogged down in being so intellectual that it loses the crazy energy that makes Volume II so interesting. Also, the series works much better with the cool look of the future, as opposed to the grimy look of the past. The toughest thing in going back to reread Say You Want a Revolution was the fact that none of the characters looked as cool as they do in Volume II. While this doesn't really hurt the story, it does make it less enjoyable. The worst offender was Fanny's polka dot dress, which looked terribly goofy, and of course, the gray Fanny from issue 4. I much prefer the fashionable anarchists from the rest of the series.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:58 / 16.12.02
Interesting in people liking volume 2 rather than 1, I think Grant said somewhere that Volume 1 was written in an 'English' style, whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean, while 2 was more inyerface and poppy. I prefer volume 1 to 2 as it seems more coherent.
 
 
PatrickMM
18:30 / 17.12.02
Interesting in people liking volume 2 rather than 1, I think Grant said somewhere that Volume 1 was written in an 'English' style, whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean, while 2 was more inyerface and poppy. I prefer volume 1 to 2 as it seems more coherent.

I'd hate to see what you thought of Volume III then.

While I love both of the first volumes, I think II is the more effective because it breaks free of the duaulism of volume one. Volume I is very much a straight us vs. them story (with the exception of Best Man Fall and Jack giving Sir Miles his aura), however in Volume II the morality of their actions catches up to them, and their very reality begins to break down. Volume I was very much about establishing a world, while Volume II was about living in that world. Also, Mason adds a lot to the series. Still, I love them both, and the end of Volume I is simply incredible.
 
 
deja_vroom
09:51 / 18.12.02
Don't you think that the choice of Marquis de Sade as one of the Invisibles is controversial in the sense that the Marquis himself was an aristocratic figure who used his power and wealth to inflict abuse on his women and sexual slaves? He says in the comic book that he was trying to expose the hipocrisy of his time with his attitudes, and KM himself elbows him and says something like "or perhaps you were just an old pervert". I don't know what to think of this. He's a martyr of individual liberation or a representative of the system's oppression?
 
 
Char Aina
10:16 / 18.12.02
i personally felt the inclusion of the marquis was purely for the 'cool' factor that grant credits SnM with.(and therefor the marquis)

he didnt make a lot of sense as a natural inclusion, and although he didnt quite jar with the rest of the book, it wasnt exactly flush.
remember when the book was failing? and he wrote in the editorial page to tell all your friends, if they are into this, that or the other? like revolution, magic, etc....
to me it felt like another thing to add to that list.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:21 / 18.12.02
The Marquis is there as part of the essay on freedom, '120 Days' being his story about where he sees the freedom of the Enlightenment leading an' all. I actually see him being on the opposite side of the freedom see-saw to the Invisibles though, as he advocates the least democratic and most exclusive form of 'freedom'. I wonder if that's why Quimper looks so much like him...

And Patrick, you really don't want to ask me about series 3...
 
 
penitentvandal
14:23 / 18.12.02
I always thought de Sade was in there just to make a point about (consensual) sado-masochism being an inversion of the power relationships embodied by Sir Miles and the Outer Church folk. Y'know, S&M as a deliberate, carnivalised version of the real power relationships in society, which mocks those relationships and allows people to escape their boundaries. Or something. (I used to consume a lot of literary criticism in my younger days)

But these days I think he's there precisely because he doesn't quite fit. He's too much of a libertine to be an Outer Churcher, but he's too sinister and nasty to be a 'real' Invisible - which makes him an invisible by default, I guess, albeit one who spends most of the series in France, being avoided by all the more hippyish characters in the story. Ironically he's the pivot 'round which the whole story revolves, with his ideas of 'non' sex defining the future of gender, and his extreme Reichian deconditioning breaking people out of their armour en masse and making shedloads of new Invisibles to Fight (become) the Power. He's the first sign that the Invisibles have to move into Outer Church territory, using Outer Church methods and tropes, to achieve their mission. He's Quimper deluxe, freed from the imprisonment of flesh that crippled Quimper's spirit, but he still prefers to look like a fat, bloated, garlic-stained bastard because that's just how punk-rock he is...

Or he's just a deluded pronographer who can't escape from the power-and-humiliation dialectic no matter how hard he tries, and this is why Edith remains unimpressed when she meets him. Whatever way you wanna look at it, I guess...
 
 
A
14:39 / 18.12.02
I think that a large part of the point of Arcadia was to drop Jack (the point of introduction character for the reader), and therefore the reader his/her/itself into a completely fucked up mission/story straight away. I think that the use of the Marquis de Sade in the story fits in with this approach. What great historical figure do the Invisibles choose to be the architect of the new world (or whatever)? The fucking Marquis de Sade. He hardly seems the likeliest candidate on the surface, you know?

Obviously there is far more to both the story and the use of de Sade than just that, but I think that the "shock value" (for want of a better term) of the story, both for the reader and Jack, shouldn't be underestimated.
 
 
Monkey Boy Z
06:48 / 24.12.02
A big part of Arcadia is the theme of the artist (god/whatever) trapped within his own creation. De Sade is forced to realize the realities of his own sick visions. This happens to the Roswell entity, Robin in the think tanks, and a few other places. Clearly Grant was readying himself for another journey into the second dimension. Pages like the one with the Dlang (the puppeteer) pop up in every story arc. They're holographic, fractal representations of the overall principle of the story. Well, one of them, anyway.

In a lot of ways, it WAS a lot like a typical vertigo story. At least, a typical, pre-invis vertigo story. Now they're all like vol II, flash bang, ultra zeitgist, bla bla bla.

I think a big part of the reason Arcadia almost killed the book is again, fractal. It's like he said about reading De Sade books. You might've started them, but you rarely finish them. Something about it still resonates as one of the more moving bits for me, I just wish they'd put issue 9 in the trade, because you need that wham bam balance, you know?

It's all about what the guy in the leather mask says, anyway.

z
 
 
salthigh
16:41 / 08.10.13
No way! I don't know much about history but Sade smells to me like the Outer Church Patron Saint of MONARCH CIA JESUIT type programming. The real INVISIBLE to be snatched out of the past would be Ambrose Bierce, who actually disappeared misteriously. Just like you wouldn't invoke Lennon, an atheist, but Jimi Hendrix. He's playing pranks.
 
  
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