Barbelith Underground > Comic Books > Batman

"Each character, no matter how incidental, seemed pretty well-crafted, from Flass to Skeevers to Selina(and even the cipher of Merkel... guy has a looong career finding the Comissioner's cigars for him). I'm surprised it took so long (15 years, i think) for any other Batman writer to play with them."

Solid State, where have they appeared recently? I'm a little out of the loop when it comes to current funnybooks, though I am considering adding Gotham Central to my ever increasing list of monthly titles.

(good idea, moriarty).

Thank Perse.

"Isn't it more fun if the character is called Batman, id est is Batman?

Perse, I agree completely. In fact, a variation of this idea has popped up time and again in the various discussions on fanfic. Why else would fanfic and slash authors use copyrighted characters if not for the resonance that those characters possess?

"I love the Commissioner's office. I love how you can just make out Charlie Brown and Lucy on the lamp, and the statue of The Thinker sitting on a toilet...

The Commissioner disgusts me. That pasty, eucalyptus-gobbling troll surrounded by his kitschy, juvenile artifacts. It's like Gordon is workign for John Wayne Gacy. "So by the time I was doing Batman I was very interested in Chester Gould and Herge, and Alex Toth." - David Mazzucchelli. You can see the Gould influence on the freakish appearance of most of the corrupt characters in Year One. That lady in the black, strapless evening gown as an example(who you only really see in one panel, but is so ghastly with that grin of hers that it obviously remained with you, Perse). Even some of the better looking people have bad haircuts. Mazzucchelli seems willing to populate the whole city of Gotham with an ageing elite that seems to be sinking in its own inbreeding. It may be the beginning for Batman, but it seems to be the end for this brand of villainy and the beginning of a new era with the Joker, the Penguin and more overt types of freaks about to make an appearance. "Your Feast Is Nearly Over."

Speaking of which, one of the things I noticed on rereading the book is the influence Batman has on the creation of his own Rogues Gallery. I've read many comics where the populace blame the superheroed for providing a target for super villains, with the city getting caught in the crossfire. Catwoman dons her outfit in imitation of Batman. One gets the feeling that many of Batman's foes wouldn't have appeared with so much regularity if it wasn't for the proximity of the Bat himself. In fact, Batman may have been responsible for a large portion of the weird crime that has assailed Gotham.

"Who does that stuff, the illustrator or the colorist?

I have no idea, but it is a really nice touch. I wasn't aware that the print on the sheets were different from the newsprint edition to the collected work. I did know that the entire thing was recoloured by Richmond Lewis for the trade.

"But Richmond did colour the newsprint version that was published first. In fact, I recall people asking about that. "Is she using the same chart as everyone else is using? Did they give her some extra colours?" "No, she's using the same as everyone else. She's just making some choices that other people don't make." Richmond actually colored an issue of Daredevil that we did. The regular colorist was on vacation and I asked that it be given to me. It says that I colored it but that's only because i didn't want to go through the hassle of trying to convince people in one week that this woman who had never colored a comic book before was going to do a great job on it. So I said, "Let me color it." And apparently when that book was published I remember Jim Shooter walked around the office with it in his hand, showing the book to people as an example of good comic coloring. "Here's what I mean. All that stuff I've been telling you? This is what I mean." So when I was going to do Batman, my approach to drawing in general was changing, and for this particular project I knew I wanted it to look a certain way. By having a colorist who I could trust, it allowed me a certain degree of freedom to leave aspects of the rendering for the coloring stage that, when I was working on Daredevil, I would not necessarily have done. Newsprint being what it is, and the production line process of turning things over so quickly beign what they are, I did not want to leave anythign up to chance, as much as I could, so i tried to make sure the artwork for Daredevil worked in black and white no matter what was goign to happen in the coloring stage, although I think I got some good coloring in general. With Batman, I knew I'd have a greater degree of control over what would happen. And so, working with a colorist as good as Richmond, I wsa able to let the color become a greater part of the art." - David Mazzucchelli.

I haven't read the new DK2 book, I wonder if reading these together is complimentary or not?

I was thinking the same thing, Dan. But I'm too scared to find out.

"Panels that stand out for me are the one of bruce wayne, pre-badman costume, walking down a rain-soaked vice street. It just screams Taxi Driver. And there is an element of Wayne that very Travis Bickle - self appointed, and somewhat delusional guardian of the streets. In a single panel mazzuchelli has managed to convey more about Bruce Wayne than many other artists have managed in years.

The other is the large panel of Gordon sitting on his bed cleaning his gun while his pregnant wife sleeps. The isolation and sense of guilt/duty Gordon feels permeates the page. In his work and relationships he is alone, even his wife can offer him no comfort."

Upon rereading, I wasn't so sure that the emphasis on Gordon was such a good idea, but you may have convinced me otherwise, Sleaze. I love the way these two mix. Batman, driven by rage, freed by his status and delusions to bypass the law of the land and strike. Gordon, secretly envious of the Bat, grounded by his other responsibilities and a sense of duty as opposed to vengeance. Batman has wings while Gordon can only dream. What made Gordon take up crimefighting? Would Bruce have pursued his calling without the fire in his belly? Who's the greater hero?

Every once in awhile I'll pick up a random, stand-alone superhero comic to see what's happening. During that whole "No Man's Land" deal, I purchased Legends of the Dark Knight #125 by Rucka and Burchett. Good solid Batman/Gordon story, here. I later found out it was reviewed in the Comics Journal #219 by Rich Kreiner(take that, anti-TCJ folk). They sum it up better than I could.

"A kind of genre jujitsu is performed and an opposing tack from the usual hero fiction is taken: the book makes use of the trappings of the romance comic. Roses serve as a coversation starter, a garden as a metaphor for endured turmoil. Awkward silences constrict the the already tight quarters. Looks are meant to speak volumes. And when the couple does speak, they talk bluntly of their relationship - of reciprocal regard, difficult disclosure, and mutual commitment - using a language less often employed in funnybooks than within long-standing marriages. For several pages running, each successive speech balloon adds a cutting jab, opens up a new wound, reveals an unforseen feeling. Finally, when talk has demonstrated its limitations, Batman, driven to last resorts, decowls in Grodon's presence and bares his civilan identity. This for all the world is the superhero correlative to giving oneself up to one's lover, standing naked, dropping all pretense and guard, revealing all, offering all."

I highly recommend it.

moriarty

05:48 / 12.12.02

Perse and I were just saying that it's probably all up to us now. Nice to see people still chiming in.

It's also worth mentioning that R. Lewis gets the credit for her issue in the Born Again TPB, and it happens to be the first issue of Daredevil I ever read. But I figure the Born Again love-in, should be another thread.

The issue of Daredevil coloured by Lewis and credited to Mazzucchelli appears to be #228. Nice to know they credit her work in the trade.

A thread on Born Again would be pretty nifty, but if you don't feel like starting one, go ahead and muddy up this thread. It was made to be muddied up. Perse and I both agreed that it would be fun to go off on tangents. Or even, as Perse just reminded me, just to spout off whatever comes to mind. Less stuffiness, more fun.

I just feel like there's a whole story in that woman. Like if you could talk to her, you wouldn't be able to just write her off and cheer when Batman steals her car and stuff.

I can appreciate what you're saying, and it did make me take another look at the pages in question, but I'm not sure I agree completely. Yes, this woman may have a story and a personality beyond what I can perceive. But so would everyone else in that room. But, a large part of their character is that they all have ties to corruption in Gotham. It's a roomful of city officials having a dinner with the head of organized crime and listening to him talk about his criminal concerns in open view, without flinching, as if they're used to such talk. I have no doubt that most of the people in the dining room feel that they are so far removed from the actual crimes to believe that they are innocent, and that they shouldn't be persecuted by the Batman. But that doesn't mean they aren't implicit in the troubles in Gotham City. If anything, it should be a reminder to the reader of their responsibility to examine their influence on their own environment and not just assume that they are a good person and that their actions may not indirectly affect others. Which is probably way off the mark of what you were saying, but there you go. Basically, just because they may have a history doesn't mean that they haven't made bad choices, or that they should be forgiven for those choices without restitution.

I agree with you on the objective stance of the book, which I think is partly due to the mixture of Miller and Mazzucchelli. In talking about their work together on Daredevil, Mazzucchelli pointed out his insistence that the story not end in your typical superhero fashion. I won't ruin it for you, but they wanted to turn the idea of the "hero comes back from ruin better than ever" cliche on its head. I'm not sure if Miller would have done that on his own. Mazzucchelli was a nice influence on Miller. That same level of objectivity is probably the reason why we can disagree on the woman in the black, strapless dress.

the coffe bar the gordon an essen meet in is called hoppers amd it appears in a panel layout reminicent of hoppers famous diner painting

Nighthawks.

I figured all the forshadowing of the birth of gordon's kid - how he wanted it to be a boy to survive the tough city was going to come to fruition with the birth of that gave gordon his daughter- does/did Goron ever have a son?

I don't understand. The Gordons give birth to a son in Year One. Soon after, Gordon's wife and child leave him. He then adopts his niece after her parents are killed in a car accident. That niece is Barbara Gordon, aka Batgirl/Oracle.

Look at Catwoman and Detective (before Rucka left) and you'll see that they use the same elements at Year One...dark yet simple art the serves the STORY rather than being flashy art that looks like a poster. Yeah, I REALLY fucking hate the Jim Lee stories and they almost feel like a 80's nostalgia comic...a one hit wonder coming out for one more jump up the charts to get enough money to go back to living off his reputation.

Agreed. Still, i can't get too upset. If people want Jim Lee, they're welcome to him. Me, I'll read Catwoman. And, judging by what I've seen around, a great deal of people are making that title quite the word-of-mouth phenom. I've seen a great deal of comments that suggest that people who would never have picked up Catwoman previously are citing it as their current favourite mainstream title. I agree. It's the only monthly I still read.

Mazzucchelli's art had PERSONALITY in each and every character he drew...and his work is deceptively simple, fewer lines, simple layouts in a easy to read grid that served the story by adding personality and mood and then GOT OUT OF THE WAY.

Honestly, looking closely over Year One it's not so much that he didn't mess with panel structure as that he did it so subtlely. Whenever he breaks from standard panel structure there's always a reason, and though it might be a small change, it affects how you read the comic by virtue of being surrounded by more static panels.

Why aren't I writing about the story itself? Because you magnificent bastards are doing it so well without me.

Meh. One of the things I've noticed about the Barbelith comics forum is that many of the participants are focussed on the writing and the story, and not the language of comics itself. The art seems to only be mentioned when it's bad. Otherwise, it's practically invisible and of no relation to the story. Nothing wrong with this view, but it's not one I have myself, and this makes it difficult for me to appreciate the same stories that most people here love dearly. And vise versa. In short, Solitaire, I think you said quite a bit about the story.

What's next on the book club list?

Well, Perse and I will be reading a few kind-of-hard-to-find works, but they'll be alternating with stuff that can be found at the shop. I sent her part of a list of about 50 titles. Right now, I think we're steering towards Hellboy as our next "major" book (specifically The Conquerer Worm). We'll let you know by tomorrow.

Thanks for filling me in, Solid. I kind of suspected from reading a couple issues that you may have been talking about Loeb and Sale's work. I'm tempted to try them out. In my English class a guy presented "Long Halloween" as one of his favourite stories. He was very enthused. I should have teamed up with him, but I chose "Hey, Wait..." instead.

“I would have thought, ordinarily, that if you simplified your drawing – that is, did larger shapes – that somehow or other, when it’s reduced, it would be clearer. But it doesn’t work out that way. The way it works best, for clarity is when people like Roy Crane or Hank Schlensker or Dick Moores, when they draw, they draw very small figures with lots of air around them. They do whole scenes, with deep-space perspectives and so on. And you never get a feeling of being crowded or congested. I would have thought that it would have worked out the other way, that larger shapes would have made the reading and the looking at the strip easier.” - Gil Kane, in an interview with Noel Sickles.

That bit really affected the way I draw and the way I look at comics. I'm bringing it up not because Mazzucchelli uses it thoughout Year One (he seems to have more of a crowded urban Eisner look and/or the closeups in static panels of Alex Toth), but just from that one panel I mentioned before. The one of Batman running across the rooftops. Like I said, he doesn't use this technique in most of Year One. In fact, the only other times you really see it in play is from outside Gotham, like when Bruce is training in the snow. It would potentially ruin the multiple scenes of urban density. But in that first shot of Batman we not only see him as just a shape, but also as a person who has taken control of the only open space in all of Gotham. The roofs. He doesn't need to descend on Gotham. He chooses to.

Off-topic - The other reason I bring it up is because the more I think about it the more I believe that this is one of the main appeals of Frank Quitely. His figures are tiny. There's a lot of negative space in his compositions. The detail is in all the right spots, and is usually confined to a few select places. I keep thinking back to a scene where Wolverine is attacking Cassandara, pushing her back against a wall. Almost any other artist would have gone close-up almost immediately, to get you right in there with Wolverine's ferocity. Instead, from a distance, the two characters look like they're dancing, like they're Fred and Ginger. It's shocking because that's not how we normally view Wolverine. It's practically Anti-Kirby.

I dunno. I just really like that technique and I think it's used to great effect in Year One.

This is a fat thread.

Batman - Year One