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Mine eyes have seen the glory - godawful fanfic

 
  

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that
16:42 / 05.12.02
That was supposed to come after your penultimate post.

There are all sorts of holes in your argument, but I think you know that already, and I'm sure I remember outlining some to you before now. But as you're not going to engage, I won't bother listing them for you again.

Shakespeare anyone?
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
16:48 / 05.12.02
Is there Shakespeare fanfic? I'd love to see some Romeo/Mercutio slash, and something really disturbing could be put together with Richard III and those two kids.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
16:52 / 05.12.02
How 'bout Shakespeare movie fanfic: Hamlets Ethan Hawke and Mel Gibson step through a wormhole and fall helplessly in love with one another.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
16:57 / 05.12.02
Romeo/Mercutio - absolutely. Be interested in Romeo/Tybalt as well... Rosencrantz and Guildenstern have already been done, to all intents and purposes (though a slash of the Stoppard would be a challenge all right).

I did think, reading that link, that it was so dire as almost to not count... surely it's worse when people who are sort of competent write bad Mary-Sues about Legolas and Lorelei, the mysterious yet beautiful stranger from AU Santa Fe or whatever...
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
17:00 / 05.12.02
I think I'm going to change my ficsuit to Mary-Sue. Yep, I've done it.
 
 
that
17:11 / 05.12.02
I was more talking about the fact that Shakespeare used old stories and made them into plays (Chaucer did similarly with his work, as have loads of people past and present) - which is fanfic of a sort, if you ask me. But yes, many rewarding slash pairings can be found in Shakespeare's work - Romeo/Mercutio kept me amused during a whole year in school, and I felt very vindicated in that respect by the Romeo and Juliet film.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:30 / 05.12.02
I miss Nick. He saw fanfic as an attack on his livelihood and his body, and still managed to keep a civil tongue in his head. Cool your jets, now, kids, and let's get back to the *slash*.

Speaking of which - Shakespeare - tooooo fucking easy. This took me about thirty seconds to find. Elsewhere, we find:

Soon, my mouth was moving in rhythm to Don John's pants

All right, it does go on "yelps, and moans of pleasure", but you have to admit it's an enduring image.

"Nice pants, Don John."

"Thanks. They're rhythmic."
 
 
Seth
19:17 / 05.12.02
This is genius:

Deep Space Nine
By Jason Waters

Way out on the edge of Federation Space,
Is a station that used to be the Cardassian's place,
Near the planet Bajor it stays adrift,
Next to a wormhole which is a spatial rift.

Captain Sisko is a rough and tumble guy,
But can also be tender when there's a reason why.
Jake's the captain's son but he would rather write their history,
Why he does this is really just a mystery.

Lt. Judsia Dax is wiser still,
Because she's lived seven lifetimes as a joint Trill.
Worf's the only Klingon in Star Fleet, but he's still not tame,
You may already know him from Enterprise fame.

Odo is the shape-shifter, his people founded the Dominion,
But the people he works with are the good guys in his opinion.
Chief O'Brian is the one who will fix it if it's broken,
But most people think he's kind of outspoken.

Major Kira has had a life without much fun,
Because for fifty years her planet the Cardassians did run.
Doctor Bashir spends his hours stitching surgical seams,
But being a spy is always what he dreams.

That sums it up, except for one more thing,
The ship moored at the docking ring,
It's name is Defiant, lone warship of the fleet,
The tough little ship that makes our cast of characters complete.


I love the lines about Kira. Is anyone up for starting a thread in the creation to honour the legions of secondary characters?
 
 
Cat Chant
23:42 / 05.12.02
We all miss Nick, Haus.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:36 / 06.12.02
Even me. Can we send him some kind of petition demanding he come back and post lots?

Jack: not to gang up on youse, but... despite the fact that the fanfic debate is one which has been had many times on Barbelith and will probably never reach a conclusion, I still think doing it in full again would be more productive than just saying "This position at the extreme end of the spectrum is completely right without exception, and I'm not going to discuss it because anyone who disagrees with me is a defensive, self-pitying, self-serving twat."
 
 
Cat Chant
11:43 / 06.12.02
Okay. I have to confess that I haven't read the responses to this thread since I last posted, because I'm responding over-emotionally to it and I don't want to get myself all wound up & throw a hissy fit. But I really want to get this on the record, and then when I'm feeling a bit calmer I'll come back to the thread and read it properly. Sorry for being so lame.

Here we go. Now, I don't want to have a go at you, Jack, but I do want to explain why I object to what you've said here, in case it might help you understand.

So you, yourself, don't respect fanfiction, Jack. Fine; I can't really argue with that, and I don't mind that you don't respect what I do, partly because we don't know each other's work very well, so your respect isn't integral to my sense of my work's worth: I do a bunch of things that a bunch of people don't regard as valid or worthy of respect, and I'd go insane if I insisted that everyone in the world validate everything that is of importance to me, obviously.

The thing that I object to is that you haven't stopped at "I have no respect for fanfiction". You seem to be speaking from a position of authority, as the guardian of literary standards for writing, when you say that fan writing isn't "real" or about people's "real lives" and that it is only useful as training for "real" fiction. In my own experience and my own understanding of my work, this is both entirely untrue and easily refuted - though I'm cautious about saying this since you have pre-emptively cast any argument against you as "self-serving".

Anyhow, my very close friend, collaborator, and beta-reader on Blake's 7 slash was a pro fiction writer (award-winning, multi-genre, blah blah fishcakes) and mentor of younger writers for several decades before she started writing A/B (another example is Joanna Russ, who started writing K/S long after she was an acclaimed realfic writer), and we are both fully aware of the ways our fanfic is a way of making sense of our lives and the real world as well as of canon. (I don't really see how else it could work: you need some knowledge of the real world in order to make sense of any canon in the first place, anyway. It's not like Blake's 7 or Harry Potter exists in a vacuum to which you bring no real-world knowledge or thinking about your own life or experience.)

It does come across to me as a bit arrogant for you to imply that your take on fanfiction is more valid than the myriad takes of people who are engaged in it - many of whom are, even by what I am inferring to be your own standards of what "good" or "real" writing is, extremely talented and intelligent women. (Mainly women, which is, by the way, another reason why anti-fanfic arguments often leave a sour taste in people's mouths: they so often repeat the kind of arguments historically levelled at all kinds of women's writing.) Again, there are many reasons why you, yourself, might not respect fanfic, but the way you've approached it in this thread, as far as I can see, can only be read as meaning that you also don't respect the way that fan writers understand themselves, their lives, and their work; that you don't believe that any of our understandings of what we do has any merit, and that your understanding of what fanfiction is is more valid than any of ours. I'm not entirely sure on what grounds you think you have that authority, to be honest: because of your understanding of literary merit? Which is greater than (for example) Joanna Russ's? And if you don't like bad or meretricious or cheap or emotionally manipulative writing, shouldn't you be having a go at a lot of realfic as well?

Oh, and a final thing which I was going to say in this thread anyway is something that came up on the "Bad fic! No biscuit!" panel at the Red Rose slash convention this summer: sometimes standards of "literary" fiction aren't appropriate for fan writing, because it's not always trying to do the same things as literary or non-fan-fiction does. Some people consider themselves to be working much more in a quasi-oral tradition of storytelling, and the contribution to the community made by their fic works on a different level from the kind of "good" writing legitimated by contemporary realfic/publishing/"literary" standards. I mean, I draw really fucking badly, but I still draw and I still show my pictures to my friends, and I'd just think it was entirely inappropriate for someone to come along and say that there was no point in my drawing because I was bad at it compared to a pro artist/illustrator. Maybe we don't all want to succeed at writing on the terms you seem to be using, Jack: and maybe our own understandings of writing and life merit a little more respect than you are giving them.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
16:20 / 04.10.03
Way better than Godawful:

Really Bad Fanfiction

Yup.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
16:23 / 04.10.03
And if anyone could PM me "Batman Saves the Day" I'd be ever so greatful.
 
 
Cat Chant
09:13 / 05.10.03
Hmm. I think our definitions of what counts as "really bad fanfiction" might be different as well, Radiator. I only read one story on the Really Bad site - this one - a Jesus/OMC PWP which is listed as "one of the reasons this site exists"...

... but not only is it not really bad (it's well-paced, well-written, inventive and funny), but, um, it's not fanfiction. (Unless Christianity is a fandom, which I suppose is arguable.) Puzzled now.

And wishing I could post a link to another Harry/Snape story, which sort of summed up why I love even (some) bad fanfiction. It was written by a teen, I'm fairly sure, whose first language wasn't English (and unlike Torch you could really tell); the characterization was way off (Harry does extra lessons with Snape and ends up talking to him about the difficulties in his long-distance relationship with Viktor Krum, at which point Snape puts a friendly arm round him and offers advice and sympathy); the sex scene kept swapping point of view (and, indeed, tense of verb) at a moment's notice and for no particular reason; and it was adorable. Every line of it breathed how much this girl had wanted to write the story and how much she loved the characters and their relationship.

(Incidentally, I have calmed down in the year or so since I posted the above rant, so don't worry )
 
 
Catjerome
20:54 / 05.10.03
I accidentally found some sort of creepy Jurassic Park fanfic snippet the other night. It pretty much seems like a rape fantasy, except that instead of rape, we've got velociraptors disembowelling Laura Dern's character Ellie Satler.

Prehistoric

The sad part is that it's not too bad with respect to grammar and pacing (unlike a lot of recent bad fanfic that's written like a freaking IM chat session). The content is where it gets silly.

Beneath her tightly shimmering silver cocktail dress lay a pair of splendid firm breasts, and beneath these beat the heart of a deeply terrified woman.

and

Salty tears trickled over her bright red lips. Her chest burned as she ran. The firm little breasts quivered deliciously. Her dress hung in rags where the velociraptor's claws had cut through it; beneath was smooth white skin, stained crimson.

Man, this reminds me of an old Sentinel slash story that my roommate and I found. It was astoundingly well-written and crafted, but the actual content was awful. "It's like an Armani hair shirt" summed it up perfectly.
 
 
Ganesh
12:05 / 06.10.03
Bleurgh. That's really rather disturbing.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
12:30 / 06.10.03
Oh come on Deva. That story is awful.

Read something by Gonterman.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
12:36 / 06.10.03
Like Blood and Metal. .txt file based hurt.
 
 
Cat Chant
15:23 / 06.10.03
That story is awful.

Honestly, Radiator, I'm not just trying to play devil's advocate, I don't see why it's awful. What's wrong with it?
 
 
Cat Chant
15:31 / 06.10.03
old Sentinel slash story

Old Sentinel slash story? Old Sentinel slash story??? God, I'm such an old-skool slasher. I still think Sentinel is one of those newfangled upstart whippersnapper fandoms (Blake's 7 has been being slashed since 1980).

*mutter grumble internet ruined slash mutter all these fourteen-year-olds watching Buffy and thinking they invented the concept mutter grumble boybands grumble*
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
22:18 / 07.10.03
hey. don't be dissing boybands.
 
 
Ria
23:22 / 07.10.03
did Joanna Russ write slash or just write about it? 'cause I know she wrote an essay on it.
 
 
Cat Chant
07:51 / 08.10.03
Joanna Russ wrote an essay on slash called "Pornography For Women, By Women, With Love", which ends with a couple of sentences along the lines of "Excuse me, I have Spock tied up on a bed and I have to go see what Kirk is going to do about it".

I don't have access to any early K/S zines but people who do, and who know what her pseud was, tell me that her K/S is oddly disappointing.

And Radiator, I'm not going to have a go at you, honest - I'd be really interested to know why you think the Jesus story is so bad. Is it just the squick factor? I'll admit it doesn't carry its squick with quite the elegant ease of a Steve Rogerson, the lovable scamp of B7 squick (try here).

Or anyone else, actually: why is Jesus bad? It might give me a clearer insight into why people hate fanfiction (especially since this story isn't fanfiction, but clearly has enough in common with the sort of fanfic people hate for that fact to be overlooked).

PS: don't worry, BiP, I was sending myself up. Some of my best friends have defected...um, moved over to boyband slash lately: there's a great deal of good stuff to be said about it. As I know from spending a weekend with an evangalizing *NSYNC writer lately (and Torch has gone there too! The incomparable Torch!) But it's a bit too close to "original slash" for my liking: I like my slash inextricably intertwined with canon.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
13:53 / 08.10.03
He jerks someone off with the hole in his hand. That's bad.

I like the one with the Burly towel man myself.
 
 
Mr Ed
14:28 / 08.10.03
Just had a thought that chilled me to the Bone.

Barbelith Slash Fiction.

*shudder*
 
 
Saveloy
15:39 / 08.10.03
Just be glad there aren't any pics, Mr Ed.
 
 
Cat Chant
16:44 / 08.10.03
He jerks someone off with the hole in his hand. That's bad.

Don't read the Steve Rogerson fic.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
18:31 / 08.10.03
Oh, you misunderstand me- I love the story for its inherent insanity. Pure insane genius.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:52 / 08.10.03
Don't touch it, Mr. Ed! It's PURE EVIL!
 
 
Burn Hazard
05:40 / 12.10.03
Uh hey I realise I'm late in this but I noticed I was getting a good clip of referrals and being the anttention whore that I am I had to pop by and see what was being said.

Anyway, Deva:

RBF isn't about the fanfiction hate. Don't get me wrong, I'd sooner have ballons surgically inserted into my testicles and promptly inflate them with helium until they burst than read what anyone would call "good" fanfiction. No, what I and Prawn are after ultimately is entertainment. We want to entertain people who don't normally read fanfiction, and poke some fun at people who take this sort of thing way too seriously. Is that you? Probably. I'm not out to make fun of bad structuring or pace or plot- that kind of stuff bores me to death. I try to focus instead on content. Horrific violence? We've got it. Incest? Snuff? Rape? Beastiality? KITTEN EATING? All of the above? We've got it in spades. It's kind of a shame you only read one story on our site, because if you had you would have gained a clearer picture of what we were all about.

Or you could just read this and maybe get an explanation that doesn't sound quite so disjointed.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
14:14 / 12.10.03
I am deeply saddened that Website Number 9 has gone away, as it was the place that all of the Mystery Science Theater 3000 fanfic was kept. They would take horrible fan fic and write the MST3K characters mocking it as they did horrible movies. You can still find the stuff on Usenet, but that site was a joy.

I should have downloaded EVERYTHING on it.

Andone know how to download all of a website (links and subpages and everything)?
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
17:14 / 12.10.03
My humble opinion on MiSTing is that it saps the nutty "Ed Wood"-esque charm out of bad fic and replaces it with crappy injokes. Perhaps someone could start a thread about this?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:04 / 12.10.03
Well, that was a *terribly*-paced explanation...
 
  

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