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"Grant Morrison, in the Invisibles, can't do race/gender/sexuality to save his life" Discuss

 
  

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Matthew Fluxington
19:14 / 05.12.02
Out of curiosity, how would you have liked the non-white/non-straight characters in Grant Morrison's comics to be written, Bengali?
 
 
--
03:01 / 06.12.02
Misgendered, most of that post you quoted from was in regard to the first thread on this subject, where gay stereotypes were mentioned. Perhaps I did not make myself clear.
 
 
The Natural Way
07:39 / 06.12.02
Lada: you know, after posting that, I came to the conclusion that yr right. But I forgive the old Boy. It must be so hard to get representation right... And, in the end, the Invisibles is a hugely pluralistic, inclusive work. Its cosmology/philosophy embraces unity and diversity, and that's a damn fine thing.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
21:11 / 06.12.02
Oh, and Boy doesn't 'realise the truth that there are not two sides', she quits because she's scared. If everyone followed her example then the Archons would be controlling the world right now. Grant seems to back the slightly dodgy position that it's only OK to realise there aren't two sides when you've wiped the other out. When Dane has eaten all the Archons, Sir Miles is dead and Jolly Roger has shot all the guards, then it's OK for the Invisibles to announce their retirement from the life of shooting and slapping.

King Mob with his 'pop' gun against five squaddies with machine guns. [Banzai ] Bet now!
 
 
arcboi
21:20 / 06.12.02
King Mob with his 'pop' gun against five squaddies with machine guns. [Banzai ] Bet now!

My money's still on the Mob. Let's be honest here, the military types in The Invisibles are worse shots than Imperial Stormtroopers
 
 
some guy
23:00 / 06.12.02
Oh, and Boy doesn't 'realise the truth that there are not two sides', she quits because she's scared.

Which issue says this?

Boy's departure seemed very natural to me, considering she'd been critiquing the team since Arcadia...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
08:19 / 07.12.02
Since Arcadia she feels inadequate, when they go into the House of Fun she's aware she can't go far inside because unlike Jim Crow she's got no powers, then she has to hang around Mister Six for the same reason. The experience with Cell 23 deeply traumatises her. And remember, she says that she'll stay with them for the Black Science 2 mission, then go. It doesn't sound to me then like someone who realises that there are no sides, blah blah fishcakes, but someone who is fighting their fears to help their friends. It's only over a decade later when she meets King Mob again that she says anything about 'realising there's no need to fight...'

Maybe 'scared' is the wrong word, but I don't feel her reasons for leaving can be seen as fitting in with the overall ethos of the series but instead within the hypothesis of the time she was leaving, that there are two sides.
 
 
some guy
12:20 / 07.12.02
Since Arcadia she feels inadequate, when they go into the House of Fun she's aware she can't go far inside because unlike Jim Crow she's got no powers, then she has to hang around Mister Six for the same reason. The experience with Cell 23 deeply traumatises her. And remember, she says that she'll stay with them for the Black Science 2 mission, then go. It doesn't sound to me then like someone who realises that there are no sides, blah blah fishcakes, but someone who is fighting their fears to help their friends.

I guess we just came away with two different readings. It's no mistake her leaving comes so soon after her contact with Barbelith. I'm not sure she ever felt "inadequate" actually. I always read that as critique.
 
 
Dexter Graves
22:14 / 08.04.04
The subject of Lord Fanny shows us that there is a very blurry line between transexual and transvestite. Lord Fanny seems grounded in the middle of these two characterstics. Tranvestites (assuming they're male) are characterized by a need to wear women's clothing. It doesn't necessarily mean they're gay. Comedian Eddie Izzard, for example, identifies himself as a heterosexual despite the fact that he frequently likes to dress in drag. There has actually been work done in the field of psychology that show some transvestites are actually men from abusive families, where violent acts were committed on the male siblings but NOT the females. Men in these studies acknowledged that wearing women's clothes gave them a sense of safety. Transexual seems to refer more to an innate need to transform oneself into the opposite gender. This can be personified by transvestite behavior or body modification (breast implants, sex change surgery, etc.) Transvestite refers more to the act of crossdressing. Incidentally, I don't know what the Hell the author of this post means when he says that GM can't write non-white characters. I think Jim Crow is one of the coolest characters ever to appear in a comic book. I found Boy's backstory to be one of the most compelling issues in the entire series.
 
 
Char Aina
03:00 / 09.04.04
"don't see much difference between someone saying "Grant dumped Boy because he didn't know what to do with her" and "Grant says he genuinely felt she had no place" but then that's just me. "


is the difference that in one, the world has turned and left her behind, and in the other, she is plucked of the planet?

'she had no place' suggests to me that she was no longer useful. 'didnt know what to do with her' suggests that she was only ever there artificially, to be the token black gal.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:52 / 10.04.04
deggar: there's a difference between 'cool' and 'realistic', which was BiP's original point.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:53 / 10.04.04
deggar nibor The subject of Lord Fanny shows us that there is a very blurry line between transexual and transvestite.

There's certainly a very blurry line between Grant Morrison's understanding of the two...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:43 / 11.04.04
What, and there are no people in the world whose identity can't happily be defined by one or the other? You do yourself a disservice, Our Lady...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:26 / 12.04.04
H-okay. I've never managed to explain my position on this properly before and I doubt I'll be able to do so now. I think Grant takes several different things and puts them together as if they were one and the same.

Hilde's upbringing does not explain Fanny as an adult, but my reading was that Morrison thought it did. When and why does Hilde decide to stop presenting as female and start presenting as a Draq Queen? While working as a prostitute in Rio she seems to be still presenting as female while working, somewhere between meeting John a Dreams and issue 1 she becomes a drag queen.

The lesson she learns from the Gods is that she can still be a female magician even without being a woman. So why does he still choose afterwards to grow up as a woman? He's learnt that what's between his legs has no relevence to his magical life, so what seperate event happens that makes him decide to still present as a woman? Is it because he remembered in his future that he was a transvestite/drag queen? Time is all one, so there is no cause, just effect? What is it about dressing up as a drag queen that makes Fanny feel safe when it obviously singles one out more than if one presents as their birth sex?

And why does Grant allow an assumption to be made that Hilde is gay because she's brought up as a girl? Grant seems to me to say there is no difference between Hilde's gender presentation and his sexual preference, that the one leads to the other.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
06:12 / 13.04.04
It's interesting that you assume that Fanny is -gay- specifically; I've always read hir as being a bit bisexual, actually, based on comments with regard to Robin and Mob (who she was more jealous of, et cetera), but that sexually she favoured men partly because of the pact for power with the filth goddess that I don't feel like tracking down the spelling of.

At the same time, Fanny thinks of hirself as a woman, regardless of the genital issue, and why doesn't she get the operation? "Because I'm not sick," which she explains to Jack when they meet the Harlequinade and gain the Hand of Glory. In some ways, you could make the argument that she's "gay" because people see her as a man first (i.e. Jack).

Why does she "present" as a drag queen? Probably a combination of having wonderfully big shoulders (Fanny's always portrayed as being a big taller and broader than "most girls") and simply having a flamboyant personality; it also connects to the magick thing in my head for some reason; Morrison wants to invoke the "magicians in women's clothes" angle and Fanny wants to be -seen-. Think about it, she's not the type to dress conservatively in order to pass for female; she doesn't want the operation and in some ways she just understands the fictionsuit thing.

Which probably is a redundant thing to say, but does that make any sense?
 
 
thomas the doubter
10:51 / 13.04.04
As someone said earlier, Lord Fanny, Boy, King Mob, Jolly Rogers... are all stereotypes. How conscious GM is about this shows that one issue of "American Death Camp" when the 64 letter alphabet is used on everybody's favourite anarchist cell which leads to heavy self-critisism. But GM lets them grow beyond these tiny boxes. See Lord Fanny facing death in She-Man or King Mob doubting his big guns-sixty-spy-series style. Concerning Lord Fanny, I think, he perfectly represents the softness of gender-frontiers and gender roles. One of the Invisibles' main messages is that we just dress up as certain personalities and could be whatever we want to be. So stop thinking inside this thigt boxes.
 
 
Tom Coates
13:58 / 13.04.04
This clash between drag, transexualism, transvesticism and gay always troubled me about Lord Fanny too. I don't think we can just talk about collapsing boundaries and trying to fight against lurid categorisation here, because the book posits theories about why he is the way he is - it conjures up a backstory which kind of suggests why he/she wears dresses and what she gets out of it, with the danger that - just like Extrano, the gay 'witch' from the New Guardians - often very distinct groups of people (gay people, transexuals, transvestites) and their often very distinct motivations are just treated as being part of one great big mush of sexual indistinctness. The motivations behind drag are simply not the same as those behind transvesticism and are completely different to those concerned with transexualism. Drag is about performance and extremes and also very definitely about being a man wearing women's clothing - and is mostly associated with gay people. Transvesticism has much less to do with performance, which is why most transvestites wear quite subdued or even tediously banal clothing and are much more often straight. Transexuals similarly don't tend to make a performance about their gender identity because they don't feel it to be performative, they feel it to be fundamental - and may or may not be gay and/or straight (ie. some born-as-women find men attractive and become gay, while some born-as-women find women attractive and kind of move from being gay to being straight). Grant mixes all these categories up cheerfully but the motivations are so distinct that it's not really practical to do so - except by accident - ie. Hedwig in HATAI being a kind of semi-transexual by circumstance and accident rather than design. It would be like blurring the distinctions between a woman who had a mastectomy and a female-to-male transexual - it only kind of works one way...
 
 
The Natural Way
15:20 / 13.04.04
Yes, Fanny learns that she can produce magic with or without the gender-bending, but I always got the feeling that hir "dragging up" was just a tried and tested piece of ritual magic, designed to get hir into the right head space. "If it works: USE IT!", and all that other chaos magic crap.

A thought to throw into the mix: Morrison's quite big on people's self-identities being a bit, err, cliched, isn't he? All that "I look just like every other media wanker in Glasgow" stuff.

Not judging - just saying.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:16 / 13.04.04
I'm rather wary about using the excuse that 'they're all stereotypes!' because although that is very much Grant's intent for volume 2, it doesn't really work for sections of volume 1, Fanny's story being the prime example (either that or I'm being selectively blind to the number of stories out there about Brazilian boys being brought up as girls and then taking part in rituals to communicate with the Gods and change time to prevent them getting killed by assasins twenty years later).

On An Ox's point. We've seen Fanny does keep one of his wigs from his prostitute days because of it's link to his rape and Quimper. But we also see several occasions when Fanny is undragged up and equally able to work the mojo, so I don't think that is necessarily a large part of it. The worrying thing which I can read into what you said, which I'm sure you don't mean is that Fanny does drag because it's embaressing, a larger version of her 'being caught by the Enquirer going down on Bigfoot', which would be an extremely negative reaction to drag queens.

Jack Wildcat- Which "magicians in women's clothes" angle were you thinking of specifically? This sounds like an angle I should investigate. I know she doesn't feel the need to transition to being a woman, I'm asking where this need to be a drag queen came from and, worryingly, if Grant thinks it's the same thing. If Fanny has the gender thing sorted then where did the drag queen come from? What's Fanny's origin as opposed to Hilde's story?

Dang it, I think I'm going to have to remember this thread next time someone asks for questions for an interview they're doing with Grant...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:43 / 13.04.04
If Fanny has the gender thing sorted then where did the drag queen come from?

Not sure what you mean from this: surely all gender is drag? People's problems with Fanny's identity seem to require a dichotomy between a trans identity in which Fanny "really" becomes a woman and one in which she only "pretends" to be one (ie, is conscious that this is form of pretence, and presents it as such). I still don't think it's one or the other. As far as I'm aware this is a fiercely debated issue even in trans activist circles, however, so it might require an entire thread not limited to the Invisibles - maybe in the Head Shop?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
18:59 / 13.04.04
Re: magicians in women's clothing angle. I was under the impression at least one of the "seeds" for Fanny's character was that in the past magicians often wore women's clothing as part of ritual? It was there with Fanny's "getting into character" at the beginning of SHE-MAN. But, as has been pointed out, she can do it when she isn't dressed up (which sort of implies she's wearing the clothes on the inside as much as the outside - just another fictionsuit).

I suspect Fanny, as has been said, can be viewed as trans -or- as drag queen? It's not an either/or situation. It almost falls under that idea of which lens you're using to view her with. If she's trans, it doesn't make sense for her to "do drag" and be flamboyant, but that's part of her personality regardless of her gender (or hir gender, pronouns collapsing on me). She defies trans convention, but defies drag convention by thinking of herself as a woman.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
21:00 / 13.04.04
Flyboy Is Ready: Play On! If Fanny has the gender thing sorted then where did the drag queen come from?>

Not sure what you mean from this: surely all gender is drag?


Hmmm, this is theory bitchery isn't it? Judith Butler possibly, who I know of but haven't read? Was it her that said all gender was drag? Can you explain what you mean by this, I consider myself a transvestite but I don't consider myself a drag queen. I believe there is a difference between the two but I don't believe the invisibles clearly shows this.
 
 
diz
21:39 / 13.04.04
Fanny has a penis, self-identifies as female and uses female pronouns, takes part in drag culture and gay club culture, and primarily has sex with people with penises who self-identify as men. that sounds like about a bazillion drag queens i've known in my life, and, frankly, i think GM nails a lot of aspects of the character.

the only issue i really see here is that young Hilde doesn't seek out the dress, it's presented to hir, and it's framed in such a way that ze chooses to embrace it, and further that that choice seems to then lead to hir being sexually attracted to men. this makes it seem that Hilde chose hir sexuality and gender identity, and runs afoul of the currently predominant essentialist theories of gender identity and sexuality. most queer people do not understand themselves to have chosen their identity, but rather to be expressing something that is part of them on some genetic level. it gets a bit more complicated because GM's approach to magick, causation, identity, and time tend to cause problems with that view as it's conventionally understood, and generally speaking, i'm not terribly sympathetic to essentialist views of complex social behaviors anyway, so this doesn't really bother me.

that said, Jolly Roger suffers from two-dimensionality, but i think that most stems from the fact that she's really just a decoy or scapegoat to deflect the karmic consequences of GM's fictionsuit KM's actions. she's only a lesbian so that KM's relationship with her can be the sexually sterile counterpart to his relationship with Rags. it's an irritating example of GM's tendency to cast white hetero males at the center axis while making others to be plot devices which further their character development, though that is somewhat understandable if you look at The Invisibles as a sort of multilevel initiation which GM himself is participating in.

it bugs me most, however, with the Jim Crow one-shot issue and with Boy in general. the attempt to give the Jim Crow story some kind of urban relevance or something with the weird crack angle and the cabal of sinister white men is just painful, but Boy really takes the cake. not only is she the obvious token black chick, and not only does she leave abruptly before the end, she has virtually no powers of any kind nor does she have any special kind of enlightenment, unlike, essentially, everyone else. she is Earth - uncomplicated simple folk like her don't have no learnin' 'bout no big words or no abstract extradimensional hoo-hah or deep philosophical talkin'. she just a workin' girl tryna git by. it's so fucking condescending and GM clearly has no idea what to do with her.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:12 / 13.04.04
Re: Roger. I go back and forth a bit on her with regard to how 2D she is. I think it's simply the fact that she's never really "there" for any length of time, not until v3 at least, and we never really get "alone with Jolly Roger" time. It's always her in relation to someone else; either Jim Crow, or King Mob, or Jack Frost. With Mob, Roger's the most useless because at that point they both fall into the nasty homicidal death machine trap and don't present anything new for each other - they trained together in the Academy and she just seems like a gross exaggeration of his negative macho gun-toting ways (ironically in female form). When it's the two of them, she doesn't absolutely nothing for me.

With Jim Crow, on the other hand, they start to have a slightly interesting dynamic, mainly because she sits there and refuses to take in what he seems to try and get across to her (about his art as satire, et cetera).

But I think it's with Jack that she works best for me, because she seems to be there to teach him (train him at the Academy) but Jack's a subversive little meme-disturber and when they operate together it's a two-way street (even if it's not conscious). They don't run around with the guns as much - it's more "ontological terrorism" (the cyphermen tanks, etc).

Actually, regarding King Mob, I suppose it bothers me that Jolly Roger dies for his karma before she has the chance to develop anything beyond that on her own, when that time with Jack suggested to me that she could have. Mob had to always be the focus, even though he wasn't (part of the reason I like Edie so much is that she can deflate his role in things with a few words). Mob goes off to "evolve" and become as cool as Bruce Lee. Sure, Bruce Lee didn't need guns, but he was still into the Kung-Fu and more importantly, I can't read it without thinking about the fact that he beat up his wife; is that supposed to be "cool?" At least within the text (maybe not subtextually, tho), Roger doesn't care about being cool.

Boy bugs me too, but it's mostly for the same reasons as everybody else. She could have been so interesting, but-
 
 
PatrickMM
22:34 / 13.04.04
but Boy really takes the cake. not only is she the obvious token black chick, and not only does she leave abruptly before the end, she has virtually no powers of any kind nor does she have any special kind of enlightenment, unlike, essentially, everyone else. she is Earth - uncomplicated simple folk like her don't have no learnin' 'bout no big words or no abstract extradimensional hoo-hah or deep philosophical talkin'. she just a workin' girl tryna git by. it's so fucking condescending and GM clearly has no idea what to do with her.

But throughout the series, we see that Boy is far beyond almost all the characters (KM, Robin, Six, Fanny, etc) in her grasp of the hollow nature of the their fight. In Arcadia, she tells Jack about the deep cover agents, and plants the idea of both sides being one. She makes the smart choice to get out at the end of Volume two, rather than get dragged down into the abyss that is Black Science II. In a lot of ways, she's the first one to get out of the game, even as the "Buddha," Jack, continues to play, and suffer.

By the end of volume 2, her story is basically done, I don't see any particular reason to have her in Volume III, in the same way that Fanny and Robin didn't have particularly large roles.

It's almost impossible to write a black character, and have a completely satisfactory audience reaction. Ninthart did a piece on it, which basically came to the conclusion, if you just put a minority character in, and have them behave indistinctly, you'd be accused of just writing a white character, with black skin, or, in the case of a lot of comics writers, there's the stereotype of women in comics just being men with tits. But, if you make a minority character based around what is stereotypically "black" or "gay," you end up with complaints like those about Jim Crow and Boy above, that they're just perpetuating a stereotype.

So, should Morrison have kept the Boy character in the book in the third volume, even though her arc was basically finished? I don't see her exit as Morrison writing the character out, it's more that her time was up. When he killed Tara, Joss Whedon said that he knew it would probab lead to uproar online, about killing the lesbian character, but if he didn't kill her, just because she was a lesbian character, he would be treating the character as a lesbian, rather than a person. The same applies here.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:05 / 16.04.04
Yes, which was why I took one look at the Kitten Board and saw Joss' point. But then my annoyance was that Tara had become the heart and moral centre of the Scooby Gang and the only one that didn't look like two balloons attached to a stick.

But I don't agree that Boy knows from Arcadia that the fight in a sham, what we have in 'Boy's Story' (which I as a good middle-class white boy think is cliched) is the fact that she feels her participation is a sham, she don't care about helping everyone get all jiggy in the supercontext, she just wants to kick the people who killed her brothers in the nuts. Mid series two, she gives up on this, leaving them to the Cell whatever guys to debug. So I suppose in that sense she is done. I think it would have been equally valid for her to rejoin the group and now work with 'purer' motives, or leave.

Where it gets problematic is her view in the last issue, that whole 'miser' thing. If we pretend that everyone in the world does have free will in The Invisibles and the others had given up the fight (which, let's not mince words, is what she appears to have done) when she did, then the Enemy would have crowned the King of the New Aeon in 99 and everyone would be an eternal slave. Perhaps Jack's comment of "is it me or does that not make any sense" is Grant's hurried criticism of that position.
 
 
Pan Paniscus
12:12 / 19.04.04
Not sure what this observation has to do with race or the representation of ethnic minorities, it's more a continuation of the "Boy is boring & tokenistic" vs. "No she's not, she's great!" argument, BUT...

Boy reminds me of Han Solo, that kind of 'yeah, yeah, I'm one of the 'goodies', but I can still take all this shit with a hefty pinch of salt' attitude to the more outlandish elements of the story. For me, on first reading, both Boy and Robin came across as less interesting, more 'backgroundy' members of the team, but that's beacuse they aren't as overtly loud, pop or camp (or sweary) as KM, Fanny and Dane, and I am shallow. But on rereading a few issues the other day, Boy came accross as the wittiest, dryest member of the group, and gave me more of a chuckle than any of the others. She's not so much critiquing the war or 'seeing things for what they really are' so much as just taking the piss a lot of the time. She's not necessarily the most exciting character to gawp at, but she is one of the most likeable.

In the previous thread mentioned at the beginning, Mystery Gypt said:
in the case of boy, it's actually quite interesting that the character who is MOST LIKE THE READER, in that she is not a powerful witch from the future, young buddha in traning, billionaire playboy -- is a black woman... it is almost as though the reader is given someone to easily identify with but then made to feel confused about it - "oh wait, i don't want to identify with a black woman, hold on... she's boring." that's a stretch, but it is worth considering.
Which is an intresting point (if a liitle stretchy)


The other thing I noticed was that in pretty much all the whole group shots (inside or on the covers) Boy is either right at the back of the group, or positioned lower down than anyone else, or both. What's that about? Is it deliberate? Relevant even? I dunno. Has it even got anything to do with Morrison? I'd guess that unless there was something specific going on, the artist would arrange the characters within a panel hirself, but I don't know much about comics scripting.
 
 
Ben Danes
11:38 / 21.04.04
Well, if you break it down enough, they're all stereotypes. Dane seems the most to me with the broken family, smart kid with the chip on the shoulder etc.

Anyways stereotypes can be the best way to convey information, and when you break the stereotype/ force the person to look past the stereotype,that's when you're learning/teaching something. I knew the culture class would be good for something.

Anyway, vaguely ontopic (probally not, but it doesn't fit anywhere else, and I haven't seen it brought up before): any coincidence that their names are King Mob and Jack Frost, considering their respective roles in the series and stuff? I was talking with a mate about this, and it does seem to be deliberate in the context of the series and their roles.
 
 
Pan Paniscus
13:05 / 21.04.04
any coincidence that their names are King Mob and Jack Frost, considering their respective roles in the series and stuff? I was talking with a mate about this, and it does seem to be deliberate in the context of the series and their roles.

Deliberate how? Invisibles cells as Royal Flushes? Which is a cute idea, but how do the other three break down into Ace, Queen and 10? And how does the relationship between playing cards relate to KM and Jack's roles in the series (except that King Mob is in charge and Jack Frost can be a bit knavish)?

Or is this a tarot thing?

In any case, this is an interesting idea, tell us more.

Well, if you break it down enough, they're all stereotypes.

Absolutely. And it's funny too! Check out Colonel Friday or Division X. or as someone mentioned before, Sir Miles. In fact, despite all this "there is no war/two sides of the same coin/everyone gets what they want" stuff, I can't really think of any 'baddies' in the story who aren't fairly crudely drawn stereotypes. But I could be overlooking something.
 
 
diz
13:23 / 21.04.04
If we pretend that everyone in the world does have free will in The Invisibles and the others had given up the fight (which, let's not mince words, is what she appears to have done) when she did, then the Enemy would have crowned the King of the New Aeon in 99 and everyone would be an eternal slave.

i think that's a big "if" to pretend. i don't think it's really reasonable to assume that any of the players in The Invisibles have free will as we understand it. they're playing roles which have already been written in to everything that's already happening/happened/will happen. or, more accurately, nothing happens at all, and all the things that the characters perceive themselves going through is just a nascent 5D intelligence coming to grips with itself. they're not characters, they're problems, paths of investigation, and resolutions.

and, no, there's no possibility that anyone would be an eternal slave, first of all because the Enemy doesn't really exist, and second of all because the 2012 outcome has always been already happening.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:05 / 21.04.04

In any case, this is an interesting idea, tell us more


In another thread. Possibly one of the threads about the minutiae of the Invisibles.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:37 / 21.04.04
The one flaw with the whole 'there are no enemies, there are no sides' thesis is the presence of all those incredibly tooled up and motivated young men with big guns throughout the series. As in real life, there are actually times when you can be confronted by someone who is not your friend and who intends to do you harm. At such times saying "there is no spoon" isn't going to help.

I know there is no free will in the Invisibles. I know everyone is playing a role. You seem to have som confusion over my use of the words 'if' and 'pretend' with regards to this. And let's just pretend some more shall we.

Orlando: "I'm back, and I've only killed two people so far, I've really lost my edge."

Fanny: "I should probably do something to stop you but as I've realised that there are no sides and therefore you aren't my enemy I feel no inclination to do so."

Orlando: "Cheers!" (slits Fanny's throat)

King Mob: "Even though you've shot me I want you to know I love you like a brother."

Sir Miles: "Oh for fucks sake." (empties clip into KM's head).
 
  

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