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Is poetry for me?

 
 
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14:12 / 03.12.02
recently I took a creative writing poetry class at college this semsester. Up until this Fall I had not written a poem in years. I prefer writing prose over poetry but I'm interested in the medium again and I wonder if I should continue with it. Here's a few of my poems:

"The New Society of the Spectacle"

The President of the United States
Slays a Child
At the Oval Office
In a ritual fashion
Using his desk as an alter
CNN was there with all their cameras
Now it’s all over TV
Politicians drinking blood and yelling to God
Polls are in; Prez is doing a good job
This was the best ritual sacrifice yet
His approval rating is skyrocketing
It makes the front page of USA TODAY
There’s an article on the child
His name, age, date of birth, height, weight
Hair color, eye color, upbringing, blood type
Favorite cartoon show, favorite cereal, map of his DNA structure
There’s a diagram showing how the blood dripped,
How much blood was collected, full color graphs
TV movie is now in the works
MP3 audio recording of the child’s screams on-line
Pictures of the event to be downloaded
People can’t get enough, they want more and more
The serial killer Virtual Reality simulations were not enough
The hit new oscar-winning film 9-11,
Directed by James Cameron Jr.
Was not enough
The “Dump toxic waste in the water” holiday was not enough
The latest designer disease made by the CIA
Spread via smallpox inoculations
(Worked so good with AIDS and Hepatitis B)
A new disease made to eliminate intelligent people
That was not enough
BIGGER BETTER MORE
A pretty package wrapped in human flesh
If it thinks kill it
Human suffering has gone commercial

&

"Untitled"
It has a round head
It has a large mouth
The teeth are gore colored
No eyes, no ears, no nose, no hair
Just a bump with a mouth on top of a blob
It likes to scream
It screams often when in darkness
It has a scream that tastes like cancer
It screams at walls and potted plants
I keep it in the basement (how cliché).
There’s a picture of it in a book
The book has charts and diagrams
Bizarre mathematical equations
Strange angles and stranger words
about dimensions that can’t be pointed to and Elder Gods.
The book is bound in leather
And the cover is splashed with red.
I think its toad blood.
I’d like to lick it to find out but I’m scared.
I’m afraid it will eat my insides up.
I think when I read it it reads me.
It’s addiction, its obsession.
It’s the “Algebra of Need”.
It’s on my bookshelf and in my basement.
I don’t know which is more dangerous.
The book can’t make sounds but it can bite.
The beast can’t bite but it makes sound.
Can sound kill?
The book here is the real evil.
The pages are paper razors.
You could slit your wrists from the paper-cuts.
I’m afraid of the basement.
I don’t want to see it.
The star on the floor, the bloody mangled carcass on the alter
The electronic hum of the Van De Graff static electricity generators
The burnt-out candles and the alien angles
The portal from one dimension to the other.
The beast and it's teeth.
This was dangerous math.
It was a problem that should never have been finished.
A formula for mental destruction.

and finally:

"WSB"

Poor old man
Worked on his land when a
Alien landed on his hand
And WHIR ZZZZ
[insert sound of insect orgies]
Heard a voice
Made a choice of
Voice made
Heard a choice of
Smoking weed
[visual cue of flashbulb orgasm]
penny arcade peepshow
smoking weed
He turned into a centipede
As the old men with shark teeth
Devour the psychic TV
Which is broadcasted all day at planet Minraud
Where the word is virus
“Word falling photo falling break through in the Grey Room”
Where the streets are filled with the smell of burning flesh
Flesh burning from ovens in the metal city
Observed by giant insect brains in jars
And Crab Men masturbate over Holocaust pornography
I’m fucking a type-writer darling
An agent he killed
Blood he spilled
With words he filled books that kill
Cutting-up reality
[Scenic postcard of naked young man being hanged, cock twitching white death come]
The Word Gods want a sacrifice
He puts her on the alter
Takes a knife
Cuts her stomach open
Digs his hands into her steaming guts and pulls out the WORD
Lifts his skinny little blood-stained hands to Heaven
Pays homage to his slave language masters
We’re all just lab rats for the powers that be
They unleash plagues on our souls.
[Lights! Cameras! Action!]
Hardcore Christian themed pornography
God sodomizing an angel that looks like Travis Fimmel.
“Anal Angel”! “Anal Angel 2’! “Heavenly Bodies”! “Noah’s Cock!”
“Devirgined Mary”!
Holy pornography
XXX crucified
Gimme Sodom, gimme Gomorrah
Anything better then yr. Insect drone corporate slave world
Agents burning fast falling down word vectors
Let’s see schoolchildren reading “120 Days of Sodom” for the school play
[And P-Orridge smiles and says “The Old Man Smiled”]
Had sex with men
Insects on his pen
Great alien god hidden Gnostic Christ occult mind bomb
Interzone was close
With sex magick he invoked
Pan, god of Chaos, whose symbol is the phallus
Phallus is symbol of sex with God the Pan whose chaos magick invoked he
23

* * * *

As you can see I like Burroughs and Lovecraft a lot.
 
 
The Strobe
15:25 / 03.12.02
For now I'll comment on the first poem alone, time being tight.

It's not bad. It's better than I thought it would be given the skim I gave the thing first and saw the subject matter; I do find political, opinionated poetry tough at times, and we get a fair amount of it on Barbelith.

A few things, stylistically:

firstly, full stops (or periods if you prefer). I think you need them. Yes, the line break is a form of punctuation itself, but you still need them at times - otherwise it descends into this monotonous "angry-opininated" voice I hear so much of. Let's try an example with the first five lines:


The President of the United States
Slays a Child
At the Oval Office
In a ritual fashion
Using his desk as an altar


Now, I'd say you can read that as a whole sentence, and "CNN was there..." is the next sentence. But you can also do this, which might be interesting:


The President of the United States
Slays a Child.
At the Oval Office,
In a ritual fashion,
Using his desk as an altar.


You get an effect of a headline from the first sentence, what with your capitalisation, and then the fragment afterwards is what ISN'T told in print, say. It mightn't be what you mean, and with no punctuation, you leave it open - but sometimes you need to strike a balance. There are places where you could really improve this poem with some punctuation, and others where it would destroy some of the amibguity.

Similarly: line breaks. Lines of relatively consistent length, especially towards the end. Look at "Slays a Child". That's a really good line! The break adds a layer of meaning, and makes those three words jump out at you - both in the layout on the page (obviously shorter line) and also in the question as to whether or not to stress it. As the thing goes on, you get too bogged down in long lines, fitting one-idea-to-a-line religiously, and perhaps you ought to experiment a little more - especially given the style you're writing in.

Also: consistency of tone. See "TV movie is now in the works". Given the next line, "MP3 audio recording of the child’s screams on-line", you don't need that "is". Or you should write "The TV movie is now in the works". I just find the jump in style between that line and the next two jarring, and in some ways, by removing the verb, you create the impartial, jouranlese that works so well in its disinterest.

I don't really like this one as a topic, all still a little obvious... but as poetry, you're making some good moves. But perhaps you ought to branch out a little more. Ramp up ambiguity. If you can say it in less words, it's not a very good poem. And also, one final question that I've just done a rather good Prac Crit class on:

What makes this (New Society of the Spectacle) a poem? Is it that it doesn't have full stops, or isn't full-justified, or what? What makes it a poem to you. You're interested in writing poetry again - why? What do you think the medium has to offer you? (not anyone in general). When you answer these questions, I think you might begin to notice another improvement in the quality of what you write.

NB: they're pretty fucking difficult questions to answer.

I might look at the other two when I've finished this essay.
 
 
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16:30 / 03.12.02
H'mm, it is funny you mention full stops (or periods) as most of my classmates usually pointed out the total lack of full stops (not to mention stanzas). I guess my only excuse is a.) I don't know much about poetry and b.) most of the poems I usually wrote for class were created a half hour before class started, totally improvised, so I didn't have time for such nicities. That's what revision is for. But generally I prefer long ranting lists as it fits my personality better.
As for some lines being too long, that's probably my prose background rearing it's head again. As for the poem being obvious, most of the class thought it was pretty original... Then again odds are they aren't as worldly as the denizens of this forum.

What makes it a poem? Good question, I'm not even sure how to define what a poem is. What makes it a poem to me? Another good question. I'm not sure... Why am I taking it up again? I have to to pass the class and also because I find I can express myself using poetry in ways I can't with prose (though I still prefer prose). What does the medium have to offer me? Beats me, I'm just channeling stuff and hoping I like whatever comes out (stream-of-consciousness).
 
 
The Strobe
16:51 / 03.12.02
Gosh, I'm surprised you took criticism so well. Few things - I didn't say some lines were too long. I suggested you vary line length more, that's all, because you clearly can see it's effective and perhaps would enjoy the effect. Ranting lists? Hmn. They probably do fit your personality... but are you writing all your poems as you or a persona you adopt? I wouldn't want you to change the persona of the author a bit - but I think some punctuation and alteration would strengthen things a lot.

For half an hour, though, it's pretty good.

I didn't twig on the class-thing; thought you were doing this out of interest. But I'm glad I'm hitting common things that came up, and that you're aware of the challenges. Thinking about the "what is a poem" (does it need stanzas? or punctuation? or meter? or anything?) question is a useful one. William Goldman kind of has a point when he says "you know it's a poem because it looks like a poem", but it's not that easy to answer.

Glad to be of some use. It's also useful for me... Prac Crit with the author present is so rare
 
 
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20:42 / 03.12.02
well, I'm used to criticism of my work (namely, my music, which my other on-line friends proclaim to be "just untalented noise-making"). I always like to get advice about things. Coincidentally I met with my poetry teacher an hour ago and she told me she liked my stuff a lot, that it was very strange but interesting. That boosted my ego a bit as she's had books of her own poetry published (mostly only in my area of the world though).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:19 / 03.12.02
Hmmm...well, I'm not wild about them, but that's not really the issue. The issue is whether you want to write poetry. If you do, then I suggest you do so, and over time you will hopefully develop a voice and a familiarity with what works and what doesn't. If, on the other hand, you think you are better in prose, and that you will continue to be better in prose, and you enjoy prose more, then I'm not sure why one would suddenly decide to write poetry, except to fill up a class, and then abandon it as I have largely abandoned metalwork since CDT lessons. The subject and its treatment define the choice of medium to some extent.

The first is a very good example of this. It doesn't actually have very much that could mark it out from a set of prose sentences except line breaks and the lurching betweeen formality and informality that Paleface mentioned. Simply put, why is this a poem? Is there anything in its compositional rhythms that says "poem"? Is there anything in its structure, or its subject matter, or its treatment, that says "poetry"? One characteristic, although by no means the only or telling characteristic, of poetry is that it is frequently condensed and allusive; this is neither. It traverses a straight line from A to B, expressing a complete narrative almost untouched by metonym.

The second does the same thing; where somethig might be shown, it tells. And both conclude with an expository "punchline":


Human suffering has gone commercial


and

This was dangerous math.
It was a problem that should never have been finished.
A formula for mental destruction.


In both cases, if the message has not been gotten across by now, it is not going to be gotten across at all. Essays have summaries.
 
 
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02:56 / 04.12.02
woah, who said anything about giving up prose! I'm still writing prose like a motherfucker! I just want to branch out and try different things. Keep in mind I haven't written any poetry in years now.

As for what makes them poems? Well, to me they're poems. And the class saw them as poems. If it looks like an elephant...
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
04:59 / 04.12.02
Don't worry Sypha political poetry is the poetry most often accused of being non-poetry.

I have found that, and I apologize for this, Ezra Pound gave me a good way of thinking about poetry. The story is that he found when using a german-italian dictionary, I don't remember why, that the german verb dichten (sp) was translated to the word condensare. Dichten being the verb most similar to the word for poetry, supposedly. The lesson translated as poetry is condensced language.

Ambiguity is one way to amp the compression for example, by removing or altering your closing lines. Something I frequently find myself doing to my revisions. Or, alternatively by imagry, melodic or rythmic techniques.

I liked the effect you created in your first 2 lines of "The New Society of the Spectacle" the change of length and the suprise of the content created a tension and a sense of space i quite liked. I would suggest you could excise both "is" and "now" from the tv movie line and it would mark the movement there more dramatically. I also think you could drop "Now it’s all over TV" completely that is already said in the previous line. You should also considering getting rid of "ing" word my creative writing teachers seemed to say that a lot.

"The New Society of the Spectacle"

The President of the United States
Slays a Child
At the Oval Office
In ritual fashion
Using his desk as an altar

CNN was there with all their eyes
Politicians drink blood and yell to God
Polls are in Prez is doing a good job
the best ritual sacrifice yet
approval rating skyrockets

makes front page of USA TODAY
there’s an article on the child
his name age date of birth height weight
hair color eye color upbringing blood type
favorite cartoon show favorite cereal map of his DNA structure
there’s a diagram showing how the blood dripped
How much blood was collected full color graphs
TV movie in the works
MP3 audio recording of the child’s screams on-line
Pictures of the event to be downloaded
People can’t get enough they want more and more
serial killer virtual reality simulations not enough
The hit new oscar-winning film 9-11,
Directed by James Cameron Jr.
not enough

“Dump toxic waste in the water” holiday not enough
latest designer disease by the CIA
spread via smallpox inoculations
(Worked so good with AIDS and Hepatitis B)
new disease made to eliminate intelligent people
That Was Not Enough

a pretty package wrapped in human flesh
if it thinks kill it
we interrupt Human suffering for a commercial
BIGGER BETTER MORE!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:09 / 04.12.02
But nobody asked "is this a poem"? Somebody asked "why is this a poem"? Very different question. This is the kind of misunderstanding that causes terrible trouble.

The Pound Maxim is one way of looking at it, although I would suggest that the key may be differential effect rather than simple condensation. Wordsworth's emotion recollected in calm is another decent one, and there's a whole lot of stuff about unheimlichheit that's worth thinking about. But, ultimately, you could argue forever about "is (x) a poem". I've seen poetry claimed for prose paragraphs, words interspersed with bongo solos, arrangements of blinking lights - more useful is the question, "what is the quality of 'poetry' adding to this?"

For example:

Understand the Dream

Soft music plays as I relax in a chair
I face the windows and into the night I stare
On the horizonI see a vision of you
You're surrounded by colours, bright red, deep blue
You're in my mind, but I want you to be
With me now, tonight, and to eternity

I feel your presence, I feel your smile
I feel you're with me, but all the while
I know I'm alone, but my feelings tied
My reasons to dream unjustified

I know I want you, but too scared to say
In case it's with another you wish to stay
Make my misery end and my dreaming real
To be mine again, say you will.


Now, you'd have to be very obdurate to say that this is not a poem (the usual accusation, that of versifying, is defeated by the absence of understanding of metre). However, if the poor fellow had just written the basic statement, "Will you go out with me again?" on a piece of paper, he would probably have done better out of the whole deal, and so would we. Because it is, alas, a very poor poem indeed. Had the author lived, he might have continued to write, found a voice and learned more about his strengths as a poet. But honestly? I doubt it.

Meanwhile, also poetic (and political) is this section from a longer poem, reimagining the Colombine shootings as two disturbed young menhanding out flowers to their schoolmates:

Experts are now trying to say how two apparently quiet kids
from an apple-pie town
could get their hands on a veritable rain-forest of plants
and bring down
a whole botanical digest of one species or another onto the heads
of classmates and teachers,
and where this fascination began, and why it should lead
to an outpouring of this nature.
And even though many believe that flowers should be kept
in expert hands
only, or left to specialists in the field such as florists,
the law of the land
dictates that God, guts and gardening made the country
what it is today
and for as long as the flower industry can see to it
things are staying that way
What they reckon is this: deny a person the right to carry
flowers of his own
and he's liable to wind up on the business end of a flower
somebody else has grown.
As for the two boys, it's back to the same old debate:
is it something in the mind
that growns from birth, like a seed, or is it society
makes a person so kind?


The rhythm here is pretty informal, the rhyme scheme is not afraid to spin off into haves (nature/teacher, say), and it gives a general impression that it could be represented as prose or just a conversationwithout too much trauma. So why is it a poem? Partly because, politically, it has to be. Partly because the author was being paid to write a poem. But there is a quantity of othering, of the unheimlich, that is reinforced by the chatty rhythm and the understated, enjambed but present rhyme.

Or, to look at it another way, the section:

The pages are paper razors.
You could slit your wrists from the paper-cuts.


has a similar intent to this short poem:

Early Spring cleaning, and the first
serious snow. Bedroom’s the worst; give an inch or ounce,
and lose an arm. Hence half an hour of motion,
tutting, fretting, marshalling and steeling
to plastic-wrap and chuck a decade’s clinker,
committed, ruthless. Back an hour later, you’d have seen
him, arse ungeared and reading over every letter ever.

That’s around the point the book’s discovered:
Pages still uncreased, unopened.
Perfect seal on something broken.

Time to give it back, not face to face, but hid,
brown-papered, covered, layered like an onion, thick enough
to save the postman’s fingers. Wrapping takes about as long
again as passed with steel and strop to lead
the taper of each page through razor, dagger, laser,
short shock and rebuke, the package’s own letter-opener


They're both lookign at the same idea, and using some of the same language, but in ver' different ways...

So, yeah, if you want to write poetry, and you can spare the time, then go for it, but that's not just the time it takes to write - it's the time it takes to *read* as well, which is maybe the most important and certainly the most time-consuming element.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:25 / 04.12.02
A few points and comments gleaned from the above:

A poem shouldn't tell you what it's about: it should simply be about what it's about.

Rewriting someone's poem is a spectacularly unhelpful excuse for criticism: the critic's job is to tell you what works and what doesn't in the poem as it stands, not to show you how much better s/he could have done it.

Loudly seconding the Haus: If you want to write poetry, read poetry. When you write a poem, you're building something. If you wanted to build, say, an internal combustion engine, how would you start? You look at lots of engines, you take them apart and put them back together: you get inside the engine and get your head around it until you know how it works and how it fits together.

Same with poetry. Poetry—finished poetry, at least, poetry that you can reasonably expect anyone to read and understand, and not just stuff to fill your journal—is not a spontaneous, free expression of raw emotion: a poem is a machine, made of words and designed for a particular purpose.

As to the question "Why is this a poem?", I'll need some time to form a coherent answer to that: but I think the crux of the question lies in its unspoken second part: that is, the full question is, "Why is this a poem, instead of being an essay, a novel, an Onion-style faux-news article, a pop song, a painting, a play, a comic book or a screenplay?"
 
  
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