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What does it feel like to be a woman?

 
 
Smoothly
08:56 / 29.11.02
How can I be sure that I'm not a woman trapped in a man's body?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
09:03 / 29.11.02
OK, I'll assume that this is a serious question. If so, it's going to be a hell of a one to answer. The most I can do right now is ask another, or a couple of other, questions:

- how do you feel?

- do our experiences make us feel either male, female, or somewhere in between? Experience must reinforce how we feel, but to what degree? I am defined every day as female now that I'm in Cornwall, however, when I was in London I was constantly referred to as 'Sir'. On reflection, I do feel somewhat different.

- is the best person to ask someone who has been born biologically of one gender, but is undergoing hormone treatment of the opposite gender - would they have a better, or more accurate, view?
 
 
Smoothly
10:15 / 29.11.02
I think this is a serious question, but I'll let others be the judge of that.
What you say about experience is interesting, because I was thinking more about an a priori sense of gender. If you were treated like a man consistantly and for long enough, is it possible that that could switch your gender identity? I don't know anyone who claims to feel this gender mismatch (hence me asking this question here), but from what I've gleaned from Channel 4 documentaries, those who do generally seem to feel they are in the wrong body despite the way others treat them.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:31 / 29.11.02
Yeah, but I doubt it's a feeling they can easily translate into words.
 
 
Smoothly
12:41 / 29.11.02
But Buhrunce they do seem to be able to translate it into the words 'I feel like a woman'.
That's what I'm getting at. How do they know that what they feel like is what being a woman feels like?
 
 
The Natural Way
12:45 / 29.11.02
True, true....
 
 
Ganesh
14:49 / 01.12.02
Pervasive feeling of 'wrongness', usually from a very early age, gradually becoming centred and focussed on gender role. Dislike of one's bodily sexual characteristics, particularly genitals. Corresponding feeling of calm, 'rightness', when dressed in clothing specifically designed for the opposite gender (generally not sexual arousal, but this varies) and especially being accepted within chosen gender role. 'Conventional' sex usually difficult or impossible without determined imagining of oneself in the opposite gender role.

Off the top of my head, those are the main elements to look for. Feel free to pick them apart...
 
 
Smoothly
10:10 / 02.12.02
Thanks Ganesh - I would ask a few things about that.
Firstly, does a dislike of any of one's characteristics suggest some kind of misapplication of those characteristics? I mean, does a dislike of one's genitals and a desire to change them point to 'transsexualism' any more than a dislike of one's skin colour and a desire to change that point to 'transracialism'? Are genitals a special case in the hating-parts-of-your-body stakes?
(I also wonder how much I'd despise finding myself in a female body. Am I alone in having a hard time believing that I'd despise it at all?)

Secondly, to what extent is an attraction to particular modes of dress to do with gender? Does a man feeling good in a skirt suggest a psychological femaleness? Or is the appeal of clothes associated with another gender, in this case, more about the appeal of passing for a member of the other gender? Which brings me to my third question...

Both Ganesh's and sfd's comments point to a stronger role for society in nurturing the transsexual condition than I had imagined. The primacy of an interest in the paraphernalia and a desire to be 'accepted within a chosen gender role' suggest that there might not being this feeling of 'wrongness' without it. And so the "I'm a woman trapped in a man's body!" cliche is a total misrepresentation. There is after all a difference between wanting to be treated like a wo/man and being a wo/man, isn't there? At least the former doesn't imply the latter, does it?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
11:16 / 02.12.02
Another point I should have made which may or may not help: there have been occasions where a child has been brought up as the opposite gender (working with only two here for the sake of ease), has no idea that they are biologically different to how they were being treated, and have had serious head fucks in consequence.

SPOILER COMING UP!!

Iain Banks' first novel, The Wasp Factory had this as its storyline - a girl bought up to be a boy, believing that ze had had a terrible accident as a baby and lost hir genitals.
 
 
that
11:33 / 02.12.02
sfd - you might want to add spoiler space to that Iain Banks comment... I've only just started that book, and I kind of didn't want to know that until I got there.
 
 
Ganesh
12:52 / 02.12.02
Smoothly Weaving: Of course it's a cliche; just as no biological female can point to X, Y and Z and say "that's what it feels like to be a woman", no MTF transsexual can indicate with any degree of authority that they are "a woman in a man's body". And no, it's not specifically about hating one's genitals or feeling comfortable dressed in opposite-gender clothing - although both can be symptomatic of a more 'core' identity problem.

There isn't an authoritative answer to any of your questions, I'm afraid. Unhappiness around one's gender identity isn't readily categorisable and labels of 'disorder' and 'treatment' largely empirical - hence the long, fairly demanding assessment period at any gender clinic. Some individuals are indeed content simply to undergo transition of social role, without hormones, surgery, etc. The majority, however, require additional 'help'.

I agree that our society is, increasingly, broadly 'nurturing' of the transsexual - but, I'd argue, no more so than in any other case of 'non-emergency' medicosurgical procedure: fertility treatment, say, or virtually any cosmetic alteration.
 
 
Smoothly
16:51 / 02.12.02
Sorry. The depth of my ignorance of transsexualism is rather embarrassing. Or rather my misapprehensions about it are. I'd have guessed that societal nurturing of it would have been be all but dismissed, and the differences between it and transvestitism emphasised. I really didn't expect anyone to feel they had to defend it as being no more socially conditioned than the desire for big plastic breasts or J Lo's arse.
I'm surprised that no one answered the original question along the lines of 'It probably feels much the same whether you're a man or a woman'. I've always assumed that I identified as a man purely because of what I look like, not because of anything I feel like. But the existence of transsexualism, sometimes expressed at a very young age I believe, made me question whether gender also feels like something. I didn't mean to seem dismissive of the transsexual condition.

Oh, and no one's made a Shania Twain reference either. And that I can only applaud.
 
 
Char Aina
16:58 / 02.12.02
but you just did....
 
 
Char Aina
16:58 / 02.12.02
but you just did....

that song always made me think of lesbians.
 
 
grant
17:09 / 02.12.02
In this thread in the Lab, I link to a Nova program on transsexuals. If you follow the link and look around the site a little, you'll find stories about people raised as girls who were born boys... and who always felt "wrong," until the truth came out (and now live as men).
Nurture does less than you might think as far as gender/sexual identity goes.
 
  
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