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Underground > Comic Books >

Invisibles question: Sir Miles and Beryl?

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20:46 / 25.11.02

Why did Sir Miles kill Beryl Windham?

In fact, what-all do we know about what happened between and to the two of them?

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20:59 / 25.11.02

He killed Beryll to prove he had no compassion so he could be initiated into the "Fictional" anti-Mason group.

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21:03 / 25.11.02

Actually, I still think that the Hand of Glory is actually Beryll's hand, though I'm not sure why I think this.

Beryll met Miles at a Picasso art gallery. Both became members of the OTO. Beryll introduced him to "Seaton" (aka Tom O'Bedlam/Freddie). then there was the whole hand chopping off thing. Miles was shown the Outer Church but he could never get past that phase of the initiation, so he joined the conspiracy... which the Invisibles probably wanted to happen anyway because they needed him to call down Rex Mundi in 1999 (notice how Miles takes instructions from the King of the Yellow Scarves, aka The Invisible Prince).

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21:04 / 25.11.02

One last thing to add. I think Miles was originally an Invisibles agent who got lost in his cover story (a member of the Conspiracy) just like what Boy told Jack all the way back in Volume 1, issue 5. I've actually posted a lot about this topic on other threads as I find it interesting.

21:28 / 25.11.02

I used to think the yellow scarf fellow was Rex Mundi, in another guise, but I guess he's (just... hah!) the Harlequin.

The Sir Miles thing stands up, Sypha - it hadn't occurred to me prior to reading yours, and others, thoughts on it. It seems so obvious now, though! And Seaton/Tom, too...

As for the hand, I think Morrison said in an interview it was from 'off the panel'; but, yes, inside the story it's the only hand we see removed - or rather, about to be removed by Miles with a cleaver.

iconoplast (good name!) - Miles and Beryl were, I think, in love for a while. Because of this, she had to be the optimum target for his initiation.

"Guilt over his part in the death of two women", anyone? Is the other the fox seen in v.3 - a vixen?

22:43 / 25.11.02

I think someone said once that the other was Diana, but I could be wrong. Who else did he kill?

23:25 / 25.11.02

I thought he killed his mother for his initiation?

But I guess he lied about his mother to seduce Beryl to kill her for his initiation. That makes more sense.

Ooo. Here's a question: What could Beryl secretly and under her breath have asked her Ouija board about Sir Miles?

01:20 / 26.11.02

What could Beryl secretly and under her breath have asked her Ouija board about Sir Miles?

I always thought it was whether she should introduce him to the other Invisibles.

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03:50 / 26.11.02

I wondered about that "guilt about his part in the death of two women" too. At first I thought it was the fox, but I guess it could be Diana, now that you mention it...

iconoplast, you may find this thread very interesting, there's a lot of speculation on here about our good friend Sir Miles (who to me is one of the most interesting characters in the whole series):

http://www.barbelith.com/underground//topic.php?id=9173

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03:53 / 26.11.02

actually, I missed the Seaton thing the first time myself (I had forgetten Seaton was Freddie's last name). I assumed that the Seaton Miles referred to was the Blind Chessman, because Seaton in Mile's flashback says that "Initiation never ends", which is what the Blind Chessman says to Dane towards the end of volume 3. Then someone pointed out it was Freddie's last name. Do'h!

09:57 / 26.11.02

As for the hand, I think Morrison said in an interview it was from 'off the panel'

Duncan, can you provide any details on this interview? I'd like to read more about on this.

As for what Beryl asked the Ouija board, I always thought it was something along the lines of "Is Miles a dodgy character or what?".

The initiation of Sir Miles by Seaton/Tom was quite interesting. Does this mean that Tom was OK with the idea of Sir Miles killing Beryl?

I was also puzzled by the reference to his "guilt about his part in the death of two women" but I guess Beryl and Diana makes sense.

The Natural Way

10:54 / 26.11.02

Yeah...I remember that interview as well. I always thought of Beryl's severed hand as the "shadow" (or local-reflection) of the supratemporal Hand of Glory. The object/word "Hand" serves only as a rough, clumsy descriptor of the 5D cursor's ability to manipulate and move through and across the spacetime supersolid/Game board as though it were a flat plane/Windows 95/The Internet (See what happens when Freddie minimises his window.... Bad shit).

"Makes dead your hand look like a claw."

If you like, you could describe the thing as "one of THEIR hands" (from "off panel)... What our flat "dead claw" (or ability to manipulate) will become when we "ascend" into the transcontinuum. Beryl's bleeding stump unfolds into the Hand of Glory.

"This shall be thine high reward
The past shall rise
Ye shall behold the present
I shall show thee the secrets of the future"

(Or however it goes.)

I'm still unsure as to whether Miles drew the thing down with that ritual - Morrison's never confirmed it.

Whatever, it netted Miles like a fuckin' fish trawler. All that pain and loathing and GUILT - they had him. But who are THEY?

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

13:14 / 26.11.02

The look on Beryl's face tells me she asked the board, "Is this man going to kill me?"

The Natural Way

13:34 / 26.11.02

But I think Beryl also knew he was a soul in real trouble and what a terrible, necessary role he'd be forced to play in the cosmic drama. I think she pitied him.

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17:59 / 26.11.02

I saw it somewhere along those lines too Runce...

I'm still a little unsure about how Tom O'Bedlam would feel about Beryll being killed... wouldn't he feel guilt too? Or did Beryll willingly sacrifice herself for the greater cause of the Invisible spell? I think a lot of this depends on the conclusions that the individual reader draws from it.

19:46 / 26.11.02

IIRC correctly, Sir Miles does describe Tom at the time as "that dreadful, awful man" or words to that effect. Perhaps Tom was doing his own fiction suit thing that demanded he be a complete unfeeling bastard for the task at hand.

21:02 / 26.11.02

Yeah.. I thought Beryl was asking if Miles would be the man to kill her...

I figure she was "ready" to die; after the loss of her own KING MOB. Of course there's the assumption that She figured out the whole Fiction Suit thing, and has accepted her role as a willing sacrafice in the grand game to bring down the king of the world (for entergration).
In this light TOM would proboably have known his role as well, or perhaps it was the guilt in that role that drove him "MAD."

I figured Mile's guilt was more about his MOM (as well as Beryl)rather than Diana... it seems to me, that by the time Diana is "offed" Miles prettymuch sees himself as beyond redemption (a Monster, in his own words)... he's been doing these human Fox hunts and such.

Not sure how/why he would have killed his mom, but maybe it was more of a "drove her to an early grave" sort of thing...

In terms of the Hand itself... Beryl's hand could have been the needed "vessel" a sort of fiction suit itself... "fiction envelope?" that would contain the 5D construct of the hand... or maybe the Hand itself acted as a sort of software pac that could be downloaded into various parts of linear time... a sort of driver for the timesuit or any experience that enabled a leap out of time...

23:26 / 26.11.02

One conceptual aspect of the Hand of Glory not mentioned is perhaps it is version of Robin's timesuit or John A'Dream's. Or it's both at once, which is conceivably possible, albeit crowded, when you're dealing with a maching that could potentially exist during all times.

Of course, it may be that Robin's suit is merely drawn to it since the Hand was used to power the saline drive.

01:13 / 27.11.02

Question: Sir Miles meets Beryl, and then through her the others and that monstrous man (Tom) - then why did he approach her in the first place? I had always thought it was to kill her as part of an initiation for the hooded group shown in vol3 #9, but now it is clear that this is Tom, whom Sir Miles met through Beryl. Did Sir Miles somehow suspect her occult ties? Perhaps I have the chronology wrong, but I cannot understand why he picked her.

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02:34 / 27.11.02

I'm not sure if Miles kills his mother... towards the end of issue 9 volume 3 in a flashback he tells Beryll that he lied about his mother.

I still think the other woman could have been the fox. Seeing that fox get killed seemed to have made a big impression on him (he does reflect back on it a lot).

As for why Miles picked her? He was in love with her and needed to kill her to prove he was beyond humanity and compassion.

The Natural Way

07:46 / 27.11.02

"In terms of the Hand itself... Beryl's hand could have been the needed "vessel" a sort of fiction suit itself... "fiction envelope?" that would contain the 5D construct of the hand... or maybe the Hand itself acted as a sort of software pac that could be downloaded into various parts of linear time... a sort of driver for the timesuit or any experience that enabled a leap out of time..."

Yes, that's what I meant by "drawing down".

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15:37 / 27.11.02

One reason I think the Hand of Glory is Beryll's hand is that, for some reason, when Miles kills himself, he's holding on to the Hand of Glory. Maybe it's nothing but maybe he wants to be reminded of Beryll when dies or something.

19:09 / 27.11.02

Another thing I noticed today is the bit in v.3 #6 when Helga says the black grail contains the 'shit and spunk of Judas as he spasmed to his death at the end of a rope'; notice she collects Miles effluvia as he hangs himself (like Odin, by the leg) in v.3 #2.

I remember Lee & Herring doing a sketch on Judas as a necessary plot device in the Bible; given that at least part of the Invisibles is writing about writing, is this Morrison expressing some sympathy for his character: "Poor Sir Miles. You'll rise again."?

Any other insights?

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19:38 / 27.11.02

I think Morrison has sympathy for Sir Miles (hell, even I have sympathy for him, despite some of the atrocities he commits). GM closely identified with King Mob... And I believe that Sir Miles is King Mob's dark opposite. I've illustrated this before, but consider this: Both are interrogated by the opposite side, both are compared to James Bond, both shoot an Outer Church agent through the eyes, both searched for the Invisibles at a young age, both have powerful psychic powers, both dress fashionably (King Mob in Vol.3 as the Yuppie Terrprist) both eventaully begin to consider the morality of their actions as the series progresses, etc.) considering this I'd say it wouldn't be surprising if GM has sympathy for him. I'm not sure what the "Rise again" line means though.

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19:44 / 27.11.02

Another thing: Miles swaps blood with Mob in Volume 1 when Mob and Fanny are dying of cancer from the Archons' nanofactories. Mob tells Miles "Who'd have thought we'd end up blood brothers Sir Miles?" Sir Miles is what King Mob would have become if he would have gotten stuck at the Outer Church and would not have been able to see past it, to the Invisible College.

Sir Miles says through Beryll he met the others. The original King Mob from the 20's cell says nearly the exact same line. Coincidence?

19:53 / 27.11.02

Well it occured to me that maybe there has always only been one time suit... Used to send Robin from 2012 to the past... attracted to the 1920 by the initial hand of glory activation...upon seeing it TOM shrinks the universe to a pinhole.... trapping the timesuit in the game (experienced as the Outerchurch or Berbelith) where it's remains are found by John a Dreams... it's concievable that the Maggot person(s) King Mob & John saw was Robin as seen outside of time...This could be why King Mob went nuts... John then jumps into the suit "unsticks it" is then propelled into the outerchurch while Robin who is now freed lands in that mysterious basement (assumably in San Fransisco).
Takashi & Mason repair the timesuit and send Robin, ah... back to the future where she sheds the timesuit (after meeting Barbelith?) and arrives in 2012 just before the onset of the supercontext...

meanwhile John has learned to transend the Outerchurch & therefore does not need a Timesuit and can instead dress himself in the actual substance of the Universe... "fiction" which is of course composed of equal parts Magic Mirror & Anti-Mirror...

While rereading VOL#3 (great w0rk CAM)it also occured to me that Maybe John A Dreams was only visible to Sir Miles who of course percieved him as an agent of the Outerchurch. While talking to Him Rossiter seemed surprised as if he didn't know WHO sr Miles was talking to... Later Sir Miles seems to Realise that John is an "INVISIBLE" and orders that he be exicuted while all hell's breaking loose!!!

It seems now that the whole climax durring INVISIBLE KINGDOM was staged for Sir Miles to complete the destiny of his own charactor's nature...

Or... that was just some really kind Bud last night...

20:13 / 27.11.02

I find Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable a really handy guide, and Morrison did point us in that direction ("Ragged Robin"/"Look it up in Brewer's"):

In my copy we get: "In folklore, a dead man's hand, preferably one cut from the body of a man who has been hanged,soaked in oil, and used as a torch by thieves. Robert Graves points out that 'hand of glory' is a translation of the French main de gloire, itself a corruption of mandragore, the plant mandragora (mandrake), whose roots had a similarmagic value to thieves. See also DEAD MAN'S HAND"

Relevant portion:

"... a lighted candle placed in the hand of a dead man gives no light to anyone except the person who carries the severed hand."

Hmmm.

20:19 / 27.11.02

Also, John a'Dreams is partially covered by the entry on John-a-Nokes and John-a-Stiles:

"Names formerly given, instead of the impersonal 'A and B' to fictitious persons in an imaginary action at law. Hence either may stand for 'just anybody'."

This takes us to the "meta-meta-" level regarding the character; a John of Dreams, contained in a fictitious framework.

My head hurts.

20:25 / 27.11.02

And double-checking 'invisibility' (the only comparable entry) from Bartleby's online Brewer's:

"according to fable, may be obtained in a multitude of ways. For example:—

A dead hand. It is believed that a candle placed in a dead man’s hand gives no light to any but those who use it. (See HAND.) 5

Jack the Giant-killer had a cloak of invisibility as well as a cap of knowledge. 11 (maybe...)

Reynard’s wonderful ring had three colours, one of which (the green) caused the wearer to become invisible. (Reynard the Fox, 1498.) 15 "

What fun...

20:27 / 27.11.02

So you've got a green dead hand that keeps being stolen, and the users are 'invisible(s)'.

Are the hand and John the most vital components of this story?

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02:24 / 28.11.02

Here's another interesting link between Miles and King Mob:

In volume 1, the final Gideon Stargrave story shows Gideon hanging from a pole in the position of the hanged man from the tarot cards, in a sacrifice.

In volume 3, Miles sacrifices himself and ends up hanging from the rafters in a position similiar to the tarot Hanged Man.

Again, coincidence?

The Natural Way

08:02 / 28.11.02

Oh, Miles is Darth Vader, all right.

A far more interesting "link", I think, is the connection between Jack and Miles. But that takes unlocking the secrets of the coronation, something Barbelith seems a bit fraidy of.

If I get time today, I might spew some of my ideas all over 'Outer Church' thread.

Sypha: the Sir Miles "rise again" thing simply refers to the Alien's/God's/the player's/the 5D entity's ability to reenter the game wearing another suit. Who/what do you think Miles looks like in his natural state?

"And so we return and begin again."

10:06 / 28.11.02

Interesting stuff Sypha/Duncan. Does this clarify that indeed John A Dreams is a stand-in/fiction suit for the reader?

The Natural Way

08:41 / 29.11.02

Well, all the characters are suits the reader wears, but John's the archetype most closely aligned w/ "the reader" as a principle. If you get my meaning.

13:57 / 29.11.02

Yeah, 'you can play any character'; certainly the first time I 'played', I was 'Jack Frost'; that seems to be the intent (cf: v.1 #1, v.3 #1) to lead you on the trail to 'initiation'.

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