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On the nature of magic and will

 
 
iconoplast
16:52 / 25.11.02
I happen to believe that my will is an impediment to my happiness. That, in other words, my fiction suit has an allergy to happiness - it was poorly conceived, developed under extreme and specific conditions, and doesn't serve very well now that I'm older.

And the real issue I think which prevents me from actively pursuing my interests in all this fun sigilization and such is about intent. Must statements of intent be phrased "It is my will that X?" What woud be the metaphysical ramifications of bending such a system to a phrasing along the lines of, "It is my wish that X?" Or, "If it be thy will, X?"

In other words, what do you guys think about a metaphysic that, rather than imposing or asserting my will, seeks to attune it to a larger pattern?

I hope this question makes sense.
 
 
FinderWolf
17:58 / 25.11.02
Very interesting question, icono -- I've often wondered about this. Chaos magick talks about the individual will creating all of our reality, yet I often wonder about the whole "turn it over to God/do what God's will is/try to discern God's will for one's life" thing also. It's like we are powerful creators of our own reality, yet we are not the sole creator of our reality, and sometimes we ask for things or desire to manifest things that might not be in our best interests. Now, true, we can learn by doing, but sometimes it might be best for us to ask what the Universe's highest good for us.

Very often requests are phrased this way: "Help me to attain my highest good," "I release all that no longer serves my highest good," "Sending you energy to assist on all levels for your highest good," etc.

But what about when our subconscious will might be interfering with, or sabotaging, our conscious will? May Tricks wrote something about breathing exercises that helped her unconscious will get in line with her conscious will so they wouldn't or couldn't be at odds.

And what about the will of the Divine? When the individual dictates all, what about the whole "thy will be done" thing? Or is it God's only wish that we create whatever we like, and God knows that we'll eventually end up with our highest good after much trial and error?
 
 
grant
18:02 / 25.11.02
Taoism.

All that is best can be seen to be like water.

Water benefits everything and yet exerts no effort.
Water finds the lowest places, shunned by all.
In this water is the closest to the Great Way.
 
 
Badbh Catha
18:53 / 25.11.02
Well, there's a difference between will and want, isn't there?

To live one's life according to one's true will is not the same as doing whatever one wants to do.

Finding one's true will is analogous to figuring out what one is best at and doing the work that goes with that. That's not quite the same as getting what you want and asking for more.

To answer iconoplast's question Must statements of intent be phrased "It is my will that X?", I don't think so. You could try taking three spells, wording each one differently, and casting them, comparing and contrasting how they manifest for you. If attuning your will to a higher pattern works better for you than asserting it, then go with what feels most comfortable for you.
 
 
iconoplast
04:25 / 26.11.02
Well, actually... now that I think about it...

Western Occultism, as a tradition, is all about commanding spirits.

I think the cool bit about Chaos Magic, as I understand it, is that it's more about cutting deals. Appeasing Gek, for example, by sacrificing milk and cookies to hir, and then asking for a favor in return.

And so on, with varying levels of complexity.

Furthermore, my take on sigils is something along the lines of: Charging involves simultaneously impressing of the form of the sigil into consiousness/memory and forgetting its content. In other words, trying to create a repressed memory, or to nurture a very specific neurosis inside your psyche.
 
 
illmatic
07:45 / 26.11.02
Reminded me a bit of the congruence thing in NLP - basically you perform any prefered relaxtion, then test out differing statements and see what internal feelings you get back. Feelings of unease or tensions are obviously phrasings that should be discarded or improved. Good way of self-monitoring and seeing what feelings/beliefs underlie our surface desires. You could also try automatic drawing for this. Some stuff on this in Dave Lee's book "Chaotopia" as well as NLP books

Personally, that's why I use divination - what I think I want is not what's best for me - often the opposite! I divine to get a new angle on my desires and hang ups, rather than make what I WILL manifest, like a big hard magus.

I think some of what you're getting at is the sense of devotion to deities. You could also maintain an altar to any deities you liked and ask them for favours, make offerings, do devotional work and see any positive results as an outcome/reward for your devotion, rather than an expression of your ego etc.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:05 / 26.11.02
But what about when our subconscious will might be interfering with, or sabotaging, our conscious will?

Just to return to this, and echoing some of Badbh Catha's points. This puts us into Crowley territory, in that the Thelemic 'True Will' referred to in the statement 'Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law' - is thought to be synonomous with the universal will - or the Will of God if you wanted to give it a monotheistic slant and make Crowley spin around at an incredible speed beneath Hastings.

So when you preface a sigilised intent with 'it is my will' you could consider this the true will, not a conscious or unconscious desire, but powered by your very reason for incarnating in the world. Therefore, if it is your true will that is behind the magick and it then manifests - you don't have anything to worry about; but if the magick doesn't work - then it obviously wasn't your will but a conscious or unconscious desire, and no harm is done.

It's an interesting model, although anything theorising along these lines is purely speculative until your own practice gives evidence to support it.

The 'Do as thou wilt' thing is often bundled up with the similar Wiccan line that adds 'if it harms none' - which is really a perversion of the initial idea, in that a person's true will is their true will - it's what they're supposed to do in life regardless of whether it hurts anybody, as anyone who gets hurt in the process is obviously not doing their own true will or they wouldn't be getting in your way.

The phrase 'Every Man and Woman is a Star' considers every human being to be like a Star within its own orbit if they're doing their will. The 'stars' will only collide with each other if a person is acting against their own nature - or in other words not doing their true will. Therefore any harm that such a person may experience as a result of the actions of someone who is doing their will, could be seen as a form of cosmic 'tough love' that will bring the wayward 'star' back within its own orbit.

Again, it's an interesting theory but there's a vast potential for misinterpretation. It's difficult to gauge whether or not the model tends to lead the magician with a superficial grasp of the concept into adopting a callous mindset, or if there's just a lot of people whose true will actually is to act like a bit of a dick.

Although regardless of this, elements could be incorporated into practice as a way around the initial problem that Iconoplast posted. The 'True Will' can be considered the part of you that is recognising 'flaws' in your fiction suit and caused you to make that post as a step towards sorting out this problem. The thelemic concept of the true Will is what you're naturally supposed to do on this Earth, what will bring you the most pleasure, and make you feel the most fulfilled, and to consider it an impediment to happiness would, in Thelemic terms, be a contradiction in terms.
 
 
Papess
13:17 / 26.11.02
Gypsy Lantern wrote:
It's difficult to gauge whether or not the model tends to lead the magician with a superficial grasp of the concept into adopting a callous mindset, or if there's just a lot of people whose true will actually is to act like a bit of a dick.

HAHAHA...One has to wonder indeed!
 
 
Badbh Catha
14:19 / 26.11.02
Gypsy Lantern: Thanks much for elucidating further on the True Will. That was definitely along the lines of where I was coming from.

I suspect that confusing/conflating will with want is a big problem with many neophyte magicians, which may be why more than a few of them act like "a bit of a dick."
 
 
cusm
16:47 / 26.11.02
Actually, the "and it harm none" bit is a rewording of the following line to the fameous "do as thou wilt" bit: "Love is the Law, love under will." The two are a couplet, taking one line and ignoring the other is only taking half of the idea. The meaning is as Gypsy Lantern describes with respect to True Will and the Star metaphore, but the process is one of Will and LOVE. With Love, your Will will not be to cause harm, even though your Will be above Love. With Will alone, you are not a Star but an island.

It is in all merely a rewording of The Golden Rule, known to every culture of man, restated in cryptic ominence as is Crowley's fashon. When you attempt to summarize the laws of man to a single intent, this is what you end up with.
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
18:53 / 26.11.02
Lust for results is what hinders any magical act. Desire has nothing to do with will.



(ps.Welcome back Ierne...)
 
 
FinderWolf
20:37 / 26.11.02
Where did Ierne go all this time? And is she on this thread and I didn't see her here?
 
  
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