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The Greatest Briton?

 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:02 / 25.11.02
"I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas... I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes... It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses; gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected."

- Winston Churchill, approving the use of chemical weapons by RAF Middle East command against "recalcitrant Arabs".

So, Nazi-beating hero, or nasty little racist?
 
 
invisible_al
13:43 / 25.11.02
Can't he be both? He was in the right place at the right time with the right ammount of stubborness to become great,

Oh lets not forget that as a young thrusting young man he was rather enthusaistic in suggesting that the General Strike be put down by the troops, I seem to remember from A-Level history he was the one responsible for troops and armored cars on the streets. And we can always mention Gallipoli, although that wasn't entirely his fault the generals choosen to lead the operation on the ground did screw up by the numbers.

Would be an interesting counterpoint to the poll, how about the 10 Worst Britons of All time, and we can put our cases forward for various mass murderers, butchers, fascists and not forgetting certain Lady PM's.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:03 / 25.11.02
At least Diana didn't win...
 
 
Linus Dunce
14:43 / 25.11.02
Uncivilised tribes is offensive to our twenty-first-century ears but, to people bought up on Kipling, probably unremarkable. And what was he actually saying? That people who aren't organised enough to have a proper army shouldn't be slaughtered by a well-practised and equipped killing machine, but tear-gassed instead. Sounds almost ... liberal.

And what are the options when faced with a general strike or an aggressive nation? Capitulation?

For the ten worst -- Nicholas van Hoogstraten. Didn't kill that many people, but certainly a sociopath and single-handedly lowered the bar of acceptable behaviour for landlords everywhere.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
15:54 / 25.11.02
When did he say it? It might not be that inconsistent. The Nazi SS was actively coopting those "recalctrant Arabs," even before the war. After the war, it makes even more sense.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:05 / 26.11.02
10 Worst Britons... what a good idea. Let me think... Cecil Rhodes, Warren Hastings, Lord Mohun...

I'd say King John, but I think his problem was that he was weak and pusillanimous rather than bad (though he was that as well); and anyway, I can't get past the fact that all he really wanted was a big, red, india-rubber ball.

Charles I. Wrong but Wromantic? No - stupid, arrogant, power and money-hungry, and devoid of any morals. Prepared to stiff the country to get a bit more money to support his picture collection. Absolutist. Pursued personal alliances against the interest of the country because 'it was his right'. Viewed his kingdoms as his personal property.

(see also: James II and VII)

As for Winston Churchill - I think he can be plausibly situated within the 'Great Men' of 'Great Men'-type history, but I don't think that's quite what the programme was asking. I suppose he could be said to be great without being absolutely morally great.
 
 
Fra Dolcino
09:12 / 26.11.02
Yeah. Great but not necessarily good. And the BBC did handicap him by giving him Mo Mowlam to argue his case.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:26 / 26.11.02
Qalyn: perhaps I should have specified the context. This took place when Churchill was Secretary of State for War and Air, in other words between 1919 and 1921. So no Nazis around for those pesky Arabs to be co-opted by. Instead, these were largely Kurdish rebels fighting for independence from British rule in Mesopotania/Iraq. Perhaps Ignatius is right and to give them a good mustard-gassing was a mercy in the face of such "aggressive" behaviour as demanding self-determination - how dare anyone attack the British Empire without sufficient "organisation"? Such an attitude of blaming the weaker power is admirably consistent with Western attitudes towards the Middle East throughout the past century.

My source for this, incidentally, is Noam Chomsky's 'Deterring Democracy', Chapter 6, Segment 2/14, which also contains more info on Churchill's involvement in the Middle East at the time.

This before we even mention Churchill's favoured method of dealing with striking workers (send the troops in), but then I suppose that would also meet with support from certain quarters here...
 
 
Tom Coates
13:08 / 26.11.02
It's difficult stuff this - but let's be really pragmatic for a moment - if (and it's a big if) his strength of will saved Britain from falling to Nazi Germany, then shouldn't we be prepared to accept that on the strength of that he should be lauded as a pretty spectacular person - albeit one with some pretty bloody offensive ideologies... He advocated (and did) a lot of crap stuff, but he also advocated and accomplished at least one majorly fucking great thing... That's what we're celebrating isn't it?
 
 
Linus Dunce
14:58 / 26.11.02
Perhaps Ignatius is right and to give them a good mustard-gassing was a mercy in the face of such "aggressive" behaviour as demanding self-determination - how dare anyone attack the British Empire without sufficient "organisation"? Such an attitude of blaming the weaker power is admirably consistent with Western attitudes

Churchill in the quote states that he doesn't believe lethal gas to be necessary, so I don't think we are talking about mustard gas. And I think the government of the time's rationale was probably a bit more complex than outrage at disorganisation. This was a time when concepts such as "the white man's burden" were used as justification for the economic imperialism on which this country relied. So what would you have done? Capitulate to the righteous and have your own economy collapse and your people starve? And what of the righteous? Would they immediately be able to set up a fair and fully-functioning government out of thin air? So yes, colonialism is wrong, but nothing is black and white. And people, including heroes, can't be all good.
 
 
Baz Auckland
17:29 / 26.11.02
So what would you have done? Capitulate to the righteous and have your own economy collapse and your people starve?

...because Britian was dependent on India and the Middle East for food?

And what of the righteous? Would they immediately be able to set up a fair and fully-functioning government out of thin air?

...because it's not like they had any government or organisation before the British showed up, so they of course needed a society created by them before they could be allowed to become independent...

In his favour, I can name some of his accomplishments, unlike others on the list like Princess Di. What did she do exactly that was better than Shakespeare, Elizabeth I, and Newton?
 
 
Linus Dunce
23:03 / 26.11.02
So what would you have done? Capitulate to the righteous and have your own economy collapse and your people starve?

...because Britian was dependent on India and the Middle East for food?


No, money. We were no longer an agrarian society, so we needed money. Money to pay for the infrastructure necessary to bring food to the table and workers to our factories. Bit like today really.

And what of the righteous? Would they immediately be able to set up a fair and fully-functioning government out of thin air?

...because it's not like they had any government or organisation before the British showed up, so they of course needed a society created by them before they could be allowed to become independent...


Ah, I think we disprupted their "state of nature" as soon as our ships hit the shore. By the time we left -- well, things were pretty fucked up. So, not so clear cut as to what to do?

You know, apart from "the white man's burden," there were other patronising ideas floating around at the time. Like, "the noble savage." This one, though, is still with us.

Princess Di. What did she do exactly that was better than Shakespeare, Elizabeth I, and Newton?

This sentence needs to be trimmed a few words:

Princess Di. What did she do exactly?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:22 / 26.11.02
Ummm... she fucked that fox-hunting guy with the big ears.

Whatever happened to him?

jesus... you're kidding...

My God we're the crappest revolutionaries ever.
 
 
Linus Dunce
23:33 / 26.11.02
Hehe! Another answer is that she did charlie. Ahem.
 
 
Baz Auckland
10:04 / 27.11.02
Apologies for my impulsive reply.

What do people think Di did? They must have voted for her for a reason...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:39 / 27.11.02
So... if I understand you correctly, Ignatius, you're saying that to oppose the use of chemical weapons against people seeking self-determination and independence from empire is to fall victim to the 'noble savage' myth?

Could you be a little more specific about what this myth entails? Because it sounds remarkably similar to the concept of universal human rights - which I know is an increasingly unfashionable one when applied to those uncivilised tribes of Arabs, but some people still have a fondness for the idea.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
12:01 / 27.11.02
What do people think Di did? asked the Great Auck.

Good question. From the bits I saw and read, the gist might be summarised thus:

1. She was photographed a great deal, here and abroad, and showed Britain's homegrown and universally gorgeous, well-befrocked face to the world to best advantage. People need Icons. She was our Eva Peron.

2. She pissed off the royal family when they spat her out, which was a change after the centuries of deference. "She was one of us, not one of them." Pshaw...

3. She went public with her "weaknesses" and thus stimulated debate about some forms of mental illness and about some aspects of sexual morality among the middle classes. I'm undecided whether that was a good or bad thing. Probably helped stoke the fires of "victim culture" in the long run.

4. She bred two handsome boys, from unpromising stock, to give the monarchy a fighting chance after HMQ shuffles off this mortal coil. Too early to say whether their personalities will be as engaging as their good looks.

5. She died, dramatically, before it could all turn sour. This also resulted in that astonishing mourning week and that funeral, which was an unparallelled phenomenon.

6. She hugged and hand-held people with AIDS in the face of a hysterical British public's ignorance and fear. I could kiss her for this last one, since I was working as a general nurse still and was faced daily with colleagues who wouldn't even touch someone who might be HIV positive, in their asinine estimation. Domestics refused to handle their crockery and cutlery. It sucked and she, undoubtedly, helped move things on greatly there.

I quite liked her, flawed as she was, but No 3 on the Great Briton's list? Don't be silly.

Darwin got my vote. Failing him, Shakespeare or Elizabeth I should have triumphed. I have no quarrel with the respect shown Churchill though, in which opinion I am guided by my fiercely socialist grandfather who was a striking miner in 1926 and cursed him for setting the troops on the miners at Tonypandy. He was grateful nevertheless for, and happy to acknowledge, the magnificent leadership the man gave in wartime.
 
 
Linus Dunce
13:48 / 27.11.02
Er, Flyboy, I think you're being a little too "either/or" for me. I find binary arguments really difficult to apply outside macros, scripts, etc. The real world is a lot more messy.

if I understand you correctly, Ignatius, you're saying that to oppose the use of chemical weapons against people seeking self-determination and independence from empire is to fall victim to the 'noble savage' myth?

No, I'm sorry, you have misunderstood. This is probably not all your fault. Here we go in the best way I can:

-Colonialism is bad.
-Human rights are good.

That doesn't mean, however, that anyone opposing colonialism is on the side of human rights, does it?

Now, supposing you are a colonial power, and you have come to realise how naughty you have been. You want to give independence to your colonies, because additionally they're really pissed off with you along with the rest of the world, and it's costing you a lot of money besides. You can pack up and leave today. It's the only right thing to do. Or is it? Who will be left in charge? Can they be unelected? What is their agenda? To set up a glorious model of pacifist democracy and evenly-distributed wealth? What of their neighbours? Surely, they wouldn't just march in and take over?

You might think the answer is still easy. I don't.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:51 / 27.11.02
Thats interesting, Zocher. You've managed to raise my opinion of Diana a couple of points. Also, your choices for greatest Briton - at least from the list - pretty much match my own. I'd be interested to see what choice others would have or did make.

As for Churchill, I thought that it was precisely his inflexibility and stubborness that made him a great war leader, at a time when England might have done little to oppose Nazi Germany. Dunno. His rascism is vile, but not that surprising. I'm not sure it makes that much of a difference to his "greatness", to be honest.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
19:34 / 27.11.02
In the vague defence of Churchill. Be he the greatest briton or not there is a lot to credit him with (see above for examples). However I this is not the only, or even the best defence. For certain his ideology is grievously flawed and were a political figure to express such an ideology today they would certianly be villified or at least voted for in a northern constituency suffering racial tensions. However, and I think this one is a fairly pertinent however, I think it does to bear in mind the mean social mentality of the nation at the time he made these comments. I can never condone these sentiments of his but in the words of an oft repeated and thin platitutde "be wary of judging the actions of the past by the values of today".

There was a time where we considered it perfectly reasonable to run naked into the village of our neighbours, slaughter the men, rape the women, burn the houses and get blindingly drunk in celebration.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
22:21 / 27.11.02
Lest we forget, further to puff up the Chruchill legend, he did conduct war cabinet meetings while naked in his bathtub. And was seldom sober by lunchtime apparently. I like the sound of that. As a mark of respect, to this day, all newborn babies in the UK are compelled by law to look just like him.

If you feel a surge of vitriol springing up, just imagine how he must have felt after his wartime triumph, to be ousted from power by Clement Attlee's landslide. Tehehe...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
22:26 / 27.11.02
Didn't he bonk Ivor Novello as well? Or am I thinking of someone else...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:41 / 27.11.02

As for Churchill, I thought that it was precisely his inflexibility and stubborness that made him a great war leader, at a time when England might have done little to oppose Nazi Germany.


Dude, we did declare war on them...be fair...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:00 / 28.11.02
And as if by magic...
 
 
The Natural Way
10:15 / 28.11.02
Wahey! If it was dodgy and unprogressive, he believed in it!
 
 
rizla mission
13:17 / 28.11.02
Well don't blame me, I put in a protest vote for Sitting Bull..
 
 
Baz Auckland
18:31 / 28.11.02
"You are callous people who want to wreck Europe - you do not care about the future of Europe, you have only your own miserable interests in mind.
Addressing the London Polish government at a British Embassy meeting, October 1944"

...now that's just mean! Picking on Poland is like blaming Belgium for WWI, or everyone ganging up on Lichtenstien or Andorra or something...

I read his 3-4000 page history of WW2, and he seemed to think that he won the war by himself. Also, the book ends the second he gets voted out of office in 1944/5. A nice history of WW2 if you don't mind it suddenly ending before the war itself ends. He seemed really bitter about that defeat... (haha)

According to Anthony Burgess, the soldiers (himself included) voted Labour then because a)they wanted to go home, and Churchill wanted to keep going against Russia and b)While they were on army rations, having him parade around with cigars really pissed them off. (haha)
 
  
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