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Different under a Tory government

06:47 / 23.11.02

From a post on the Firefighters strike thread by Janina.

You talk as if anything would be different if the Tory party was in power.

I think this is a really interesting subject and it reminds me of a quote from Thatcher. To paraphrase it went something like "I'll consider my job is complete when their is no viable socialist party in opposition." So has she won?

At the moment I would say that the current political situation in Britian is the fruit of a general concensus in politics. There is a general agreement with a free market, parliamentary democracy. Some of the ideas of the conservative party, such as low taxation have become widely accepted even if not openly voiced. I think politically it has become clear that the chances of a high tax party getting and maintaining power are weak.

Brigade du jour

05:13 / 24.11.02

Fair point. A lot of people talk the talk when it comes to not being a selfish bastard, but not many walk the walk as well. I'm sorry but honest to count myself among those people. We can, however, try.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

10:22 / 24.11.02

Consensus, maybe, but not (imho) a good one. Call me old-fashioned, but I have kind of an affectionate attitude towards socialism (even though I class myself as an anarchist. You do the maths.) and it seems a shame to watch it whoring itself out.

Politics is becoming horribly Darwinian. I guess it was inevitable, but it still makes me sad.

Brigade du jour

20:59 / 24.11.02

It's tempting, M, to consider living in a cave sometimes, but hey ho we all have to live together under this big ol' blue sky and everything - as you've probably deduced, I look at the big picture when it comes to politics, and find it hard to get bogged down with the details even though, really, it's the details that matter most to all of us. Who's going to take the rubbish away, keep the buses running, keep the water flowing etc.

For this reason, I find that Labour and Tories are about as different as Ant and Dec. One's a bit prettier, but they're both twats.

Never was much good at similes.

22:41 / 24.11.02

I think that there is broad and unhealthy consensus between the major political parties in the UK, and elsewhere. But there are also differences. If nothing else, Blair needs the assent of a party which is to the left of him, whereas IDS or any Tory leader has a party which is to the right.

The thing is, the Labour party have tried to make changes and gone a small way toward redistribution. There are achievements like the minimum wage and temporary worker rights. But it is sad that Labour have done so many things, like tuition fees and pension increases, that they would have opposed had the Tories done them.

People talk about multinational influence in politics setting the agenda, and while this is true to an extent, it isn't the whole picture. Compare Germany and the US, who have quite different economies, and you'll see what I mean. I think the possibility that needs to be faced is that the UK is conservative. People want low taxes and someone to tell them they can still have their public services. I think that Blair's success is very much a product of the political climate, rather than an aberration.

08:28 / 25.11.02

"Blair's success is very much a product of the political climate, rather than an aberration"

That is the key point. Blair/Labour would not have got elected had they not presented the country with New Labour. I find it interesting and horrifying to see Blair and the firefighter's strike being compared to Thatcher and the miner's dispute. My father is usually reasonably quiet about politics, but he has been venting loudly about the betrayal of the working class and the unions by John Prescott. Turncoat was the word he used. I think it sums up a lot of the disappointment and anger of the traditional Labour support. Yes, they got elected. But what a price to pay.

11:06 / 25.11.02

Word. And IDS has hinted if he's ousted from leadership then he'll blow the whistle on his colleagues and sink the party for ever. So while he steers it manfully off into the horizon, what the fuck are the liberals doing [they've recently risen to just six points behind the tories but that's just what the scientists call 'blue-shift']? Don't they realise that there's a huge slice of 'we'll vote if we believe at least one lot of you isn't evil' types out there who'd spunk at the notion of a party that'd stand up and offer pay rises to public-sector workers, invest in public service, raise corporate taxes, promise not to ruin a poor country every two years when the bomb-warehouses get full-up and move the uk closer to europe away from those fucked up monkeys running america. Why don't they just put their necks on the line and try to win an election for once?

11:47 / 25.11.02

The Liberal problem? Charles Kennedy. The man has no oomph. And it is a problem, becase a more charismatic leader could well take them to the point where they become the official opposition.

The political ideologies of the current main two are, to me, remarkably similar to those of the two big US fellas, with Labour modelling themselves on the Democrats and the Conservatives on the Republicans. What distinguishes our system is the existence of a third party who - regardless of the constant naysaying from certain quarters - have the opportunity to make a real difference. They need to capitalise on it. In fact, we need them to capitalise on it before all we're left with is a choice of centre right or extreme right. A strong vote for the Lib Dems could be the turning point that ensures some return - even if only slight - of the left in our political system.

Ah, optimism.

Phex: Dorset Doom

13:07 / 25.11.02

There is an American Third Party, the greens, headed by Ralph Nader, and it is just possible that they may gain influence in the next election. Mike Moore (a BIG Nader fan and regular speaker at Green rallies) has both written a best selling book AND the biggest documentary of all time, and has taken the idea of Alternative politics into the mainstream for the first time in Anglo-American history. The American media has a big Right-wing bias, but it is possible that more Americans will vote Green at the next election than they did at the last, where they failed to make the 5% needed for government funding. There is far more likely to be a strong vote for third parties in American politics than there is to be a Liberal Democrat resurgence over here. Certain as Sunrise, the next U.K government will be the Tories. But I'd like to think that our political role-models in America might at least have some alternative politicians in Congress to guide our own politics in the right direction.
Like Mao I'd also fall into the Anarchist camp when it comes to an IDEAL world and as something to work for, an increase in alternative votes anywhere in the world would be a step in the right direction.

06:44 / 29.11.02

I think there is a general concensus between Labour, Conservative and the Liberal Democrats. A concensus on liberal democracy and and free market capitalism as Francis Fukuyama would say. Like LD said perhaps the UK is conservative and that is why a high tax party would not gain and maintain government. The behaviour of Labour in power is just a reflection of this.

Would it be better if they had a purer, more socialist ideology but were not in government?

10:51 / 29.11.02

i really don't think the tories will be the next government. i think that'll be labour. a good few generations have to die off before people's memories of the tories wear off.

in the last election nader had the effect of scaring gore into pulling his finger out in the past few weeks of campaign, doing just enough for him to win the election [if not what came after]. a big threat from the greens is perhaps the only thing that might spur the democrat's into the kind of proactive campaigning and policy-shit that i imagine the u.s electorate is thirsting for.

libdems chances at the moment here could be quite good, given that kennedy is the only one taking anything like an anti-war stance. if the war drags on and people start getting sick, ids's hawk-eyes will paralyse his party politically. and they're none too sparky at the minute anyway.